jt22

My therapist who i'm very open with and get along with well told me he has no issue with me leaving kratom around the house incase i feel like i'm going to cave in to cravings. He knows about my substance problems and all that. Kratom is fairly harmless aside from it's potential (mostly mental) addictiveness. I am pretty experienced with kratom and have only used it for withdrawals and occassional cravings to fill that empty hole. I've been thinking of getting back into vaping weed at night as well just because that seems to be the only time i can be completely free of opiates. And then quit weed down the road once i'm off opites for awhile. Anyway, any thoughts people?

MIRecovery

For me I only had one option and that was 100% abstinence from all mind altering drugs. Playing the different drug shuffle always ended in failure

IvanMike

I think those are terrible ideas.

Getting loaded is getting loaded. Once we're abstinent, we can start working on why we use in the first place. That's recovery. Any use of drugs interrupts the recovery process.

least

I don't think it's a good idea. How badly do you want to be clean?

Dee74

Does your therapist have any first hand experience with addiction?

I've seen Kratom threads here...I also think it's a bad idea. I'm a 30 year pot addict too so that's also a terrible idea IMO.

Whats so bad about being straight, man?

D

zerothehero

I tend to agree with Russell Brand on this issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JUWbOuJYWo

He says substituting one drug for another "is like rearranging the furniture on the Titanic."

pandblvr

Thanks for the link. It was a really interesting watch. It made me see Russell Brand in a different light. He really hits on the solution.

Thanks again!

jt22

First, I get manic, if you guys are unfamiliar it makes being sober 100% of the time nearly impossible

I can't avoid drugs where i live, so if i'm going to cave in, i'd rather it be kratom than heroin.

Honestly yes it is substituting a bit, but why is that a problem? You don't get "loaded" off kratom lol. If it's okay to drink coffee or smoke ciggs or at least acceptable while trying to kick an addiction, why is kratom, a harmless plant(less so than even mj) any different? I see recovering addicts smoke ciggs, drink coffee, and eat unhealthy all the time, we all have our crutches, seems like you gotta pick the WAY lesser of 2 evils sometimes. I've used it as medication before and saw nothing but positive thinngs come from it. People i know have gotten off benzos, gotten through opiate withdrawals, helped pain, and fixed anxiety issues with it. Other than it's mild-mostly mental- addiction potential(which other prescribed medications are still addictive) what is so bad about it? Another thing, i work landscaping and won't be able to work without the kratom. Once i have a few days off from work i will quit that as well.

As far as marijuana, that is something i definitely do not want to do long term. I don't like it that much, but it helps with cravings. A few people in my life have gotten clean off opiates using mj successfully(eventually stopping it as well). I am thinking of using it for just the first few weeks. I did this last time i was clean for almost a year and kicked the marijuana with np. I would only take a hit or 2 at night anyway. Yes going 100% clean would be ideal, but i have work. I also would much rather take the risk of using marijuana habitually than to possibly use dope. The dangers of these 2 drugs shouldn't even be compared, anyone that says otherwise is kidding theirself. No i do not buy into the hype that mj is a miracle plant either. Most people have no real use for it and just want to get high, but if they can do it recreationally then it's NBD imo. I only plan to use it temporary if i even do, i haven't decided yet. Last time it helped so i'm considering it.

Anyway i don't mean to shut you all down, i asked what you guys think and respect your opinions. I was just hoping for more solid answers as to why this would be damaging. What is it about kratom that'd make it a dangerous substitution? I'd love to be 100% sober, but i just can't take the chance of using dope again. Also why are things like caffeine, nicotine, sugar, etc still acceptable? They seem more dangerous than kratom or even marijuana in some cases.

A lot of these seem to be the same old black and white opinions on sobriety, while still using things that the pharmaceutical, tobacco, and food companies sell us. I want to hear more in depth answers. What works for you may not work for others.

I'm also in my early 20s, are any of you? If so what do you do to maintain sobriety and a social life? Most people my age drink to have fun, sure i don't have to do what everyone else does and i sure as hell don't need it, but sometimes it's just fun to go out. Having no social life can be dangerous too(for me i got very depressed when i always avoided people to stay clean). I wasn't happy at all. If i can use kratom to avoid possibly drinking or using while i'm hypomanic or out with friends then i don't see the issue.

I know some people are going to snap at me for this post, i'm okay with that, but i'm still open to all of your guys' advice. I'd just like to hear more reasons why this would be bad. The U.S. And world Is suffering from an addiction epidemic, especially opiates. So the current treatement clearly is not working very well. What works for one person may not work for the next.

Thanks for the replies, sorry for the bad grammar i kind of rushed through this on my phone.

doggonecarl

The issue isn't if Kratom is less dangerous than heroin, or sugar or cigarettes. The issue is the reason you are using it. As I highlighted from your initial post, you use it to "...fill that empty hole."

That's what addicts do. They seek to fill the empty hole with a substance. And yes, while some substances are clearly higher on the danger scale than others, any substance used to fill the void inside has the potential to keep addiction active.

I was addicted to meth in the early 80s. I finally quit, but just the meth. Sure, I still smoked and drank and abused other drugs...but I wasn't a speed freak anymore, and I took that as a victory.

I was so wrong.

Five years later I quit all illegal drugs. But I still drank, because alcohol wasn't my "problem."

I was so wrong. And my infrequent relapses proved I hadn't truly kicked the drug problem.

At age 54, in denial no longer about my alcoholism and my addiction problem, I quit drinking, quit using.

As IvanMike so succinctly put it, "Getting loaded is getting loaded." I am clearly a believer in being clean and sober. But that's a perspective gained from recovery. Something you can't attain with the "band-aid " approach of using pot or Kratom to stay off of heroin.

Mountainmanbob

Always best to only take our prescriptions as prescribed. If that's the case (should) be no problem.

Using weed as a gentle way out never worked for me.

Most of us getting sober ones do fight a battle in the beginning with no real short cuts. Fight the good fight and then reap the benefits of real, true sobriety.

MM

rc4dt1

I agree with everyone here that has responded.

I have been in your shoes though, JT ... I tried to compromise and it didn't work. In fact, not to doubt you, but I think you are setting yourself up to fall back into your drug of choice. Why do I think this? Because I have done it - many many times. I had a lot of reasons why I HAD to choose the easier way, including where I lived and my mental illness (which includes period of mania, depression, compulsivity, anxiety). I hated sitting with myself... still struggle with it.

I have even used behaviors in addition to "less addictive" substances in order to "fill the empty hole" as you put it. Those behaviors included serial dating, sex, playing online poker, spending money recklessly... and the emptiness remained.

I am grateful now that I recognize that I can't fill emptiness from the outside. It takes willingness to put it ALL down and put my recovery first. Not easy but I can see it's the only way and the other side is way more appealing than what I have been doing.

Good luck!

miamifella

If you "get manic" that may be a sign of a deeper issue. Have you talked about your therapist about this? There may be some medical help available.

If there is no bio-chemical reason for getting manic, you are going to have to learn to deal with this issue. Using narcotics to deal with the manic energy only perpetuates the problem. You have other options besides heroin, pot, and kratom.

When I was in my twenties I lived a pretty wild life in downtown New York. But I only drank maybe once every month or two. A lot of people do not drink...but if you are drinking you probably do not notice. You do not have to avoid people to stay clean.

What works for one person may not work for the next....that is not a good reason to give up. Rather, it means you have to work a little harder to find what is going to work for you.

IvanMike

I've got news for you.

The current treatments (all of them) aren't working very well for the same way they've always had a poor success rate.

Most addicts aren't willing to follow them and honestly want to keep using more than they want to stop.

Once we stop trying to justify our using, we have a shot.

MIRecovery

Until I got serious about getting better I was condemned to stay sick. Unfortunately there is no easier softer way. Maybe you will be the one in a million that can use a drug to to cure your addiction

zerothehero

To be fair, there are evidence-based types of medication management: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...drug-addiction

Other than that, I can only speak from experience. I had a friend who repeatedly detoxed but never quit weed because he wanted to be high. And that was the problem. And he always went back to the the other drugs. And may he R.I.P.

It's one thing to engage in medically managed detox or relapse prevention with professional supervision, but doing it on one's own with alternative "medications" certainly has its risks.

One of the things you might be experiencing is a whacked dopamine reward system, so when you're not using (something, anything) you're bored or anxious or agitated. Often, social scenes without substances seem boring or strained. It takes time to get used to being with people who are sober when you're also sober. Loneliness is certainly a trigger for many people.

And I agree about nicotine. I struggle with moderating sugar and caffeine, as well. But awareness is first, right? The steps to detox and recovery?

Precontemplation
Contemplation
Planning
Detox
Maintenance

I'm at maintenance with alcohol and other drugs, but with sugar and caffeine I bounce between contemplation and detox and still seem to "relapse" regularly. Still, it's not schmeeze.

I detoxed and relapsed repeatedly for 20 years, all the while never swearing off all drugs (alcohol included). It wasn't until I decided it was all or nothing that I've been able to stay clean and sober for 30 months now.

Some people might be echoing what they've learned in AA. Others are speaking from experience. You're gonna do what you're gonna do regardless, so I wish you the best. If you're using drugs that won't lead to a fatal overdose, well, that's improvement. But I wouldn't confuse it with recovery.

Ultimately, though, the key is to learn to be without being high, and if bipolar is the issue, considering professional med management combined with cognitive-behavioral therapy and perhaps contingency management and even mindfulness techniques.

Dee74

It's an added challenge for sure...but I can introduce you to some guys and gals here on SR who have bipolar disorder and who are long term sober and clean, so that justification doesn't really stand up.

I do empathise - I spent years saying I needed to drink and drug because of my cerebral palsy and depression.

Turns out I couldn't have been more wrong.

I think self medication is an entirely different issue Zero.

D

teatreeoil007

I don't know anything about Kratom, so cannot comment on that aspect. But I wanted to address these comments and maybe challenge you a little:

"I'm also in my early 20s, are any of you? If so what do you do to maintain sobriety and a social life? Most people my age drink to have fun, sure i don't have to do what everyone else does and i sure as hell don't need it, but sometimes it's just fun to go out. Having no social life can be dangerous too(for me i got very depressed when i always avoided people to stay clean). I wasn't happy at all. If i can use kratom to avoid possibly drinking or using while i'm hypomanic or out with friends then i don't see the issue. "

Okay, I'm waaaay beyond my '20's but I remember them well. When I was in my '20's I was getting my college degree, launching my career, getting married and having babies. I graduated college when I was 22. I partied in college, but after I started working full time in my career I rarely went out and partied. Then, after we started are family, that was the end of drinking for a very long time. If I had stayed single, maybe I would have gone out more, but was married and becoming and mother plus busy with my career, so I just didn't have time to party.

Did I 'miss out'? Was I hurting socially? No, not at all, I really don't feel I missed out by not going out much past age 22. So, what's my point? I guess what I am saying is that life can be fun, fulfilling and enjoyable without the bar and party scene, without drugs and alcohol. I didn't have a huge social network, but I had a few friends and we got together not to drink and use drugs, but to make good dinners, go camping, do outdoor things, watch movies and play games.

You do make a good point that a chemical is a chemical but I really don't think it's in your best interest to attempt self-medicating your bi-polar illness. It would be best for you to be under a good Dr.'s care and I know many bi-polars who do well on the right meds. (thank God the Lithium days are pretty much in the past and there are other options).

Yes, addiction is a huge problem these days, although it's been around for a long time and the drug trade is a huge economy now. In the old days, it was more home grown things and home made moonshine, cocaine used to be in Coca Cola, and Dr.'s prescribed speed for dieting and Valium for "nerves"- like candy. Treatment today DOES work if the patient is on board and works it. There are a lot of success stories and that's inspiring.