Being fair about child support
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Laurelton
Posts: 178
Being fair about child support
I need some advice...
I had drawn up terms & conditions for my soon to be divorce. I've recently become conflicted about the amount of $$ I'm asking from AH on a monthly basis. Here in NY the child support is 17% for 1 child and 25% for 2 children, I believe that child care is not included, that has to be added. I've always thought that this was unfair to the person paying the support and the amount should be calculated on a case by case basis. AH and I have have 2 children but I feel like 25% of his income is a bit much, I want him to still be able to maintain a decent life for himself. When we were together he paid the rent and I paid the utilities and the kid's tuition. When I told him I was ready to move on I asked that he then start paying half of their expenses (tuition, clothing, etc.). He did gripe and complain, asking me how do I expect him to live, I pay less rent than him because I live with my family....blah blah blah. Since then he's been giving the half that I asked for.
When I drew up the agreement earlier in the year (at this time it was for a legal separation) he was drinking and binging, hardly coming around and leaving me to deal with everything. He was barely coming over to help with the kids because he was either drunk or depressed. I had asked (in the agreement) that he give me 75% of their costs plus an additional $100 per month. This was given to him but he never read it, he kept leaving it at my house and never took it home to go over it. He couldn't take the separation and ended up in rehab (2nd time). Shortly after he returned we ended up trying to work things out so the agreement was no longer. A few months ago when I proposed the separation again he said he either wanted us to work on the marriage or get a divorce so I said divorce because I didn't have it in me to watch him pick and choose his recovery methods and watch him fail. I re-wrote the agreement (about 2 months ago) but this time I revised the amount. He was then coming around 3-4 days a week and relieving me of a lot (homework, bathing, feeding, watching, etc.) I thought it would be fair to readjust the figures to 50% of their costs with an additional $300 per month to go towards misc. things such as groceries, house bills, baby sitter fees (when I find another, as I'm still searching), etc.
My therapist kept urging me to journal daily, 2 weeks ago I finally took her advice and I'm glad I did. For the past 2 weeks RAH (he says he's sober almost 3 months, not sure I quite believe him) has been late on EVERY occasion or just completely cancelled. His time with the kids has been decreasing. He's acts so busy tending to his side music career (and I suspect other things but can't be sure) ..."sorry I got tied up doing this", "sorry my associates were shooting a movie, "I have to make a quick run before I come", etc. The excuses go on. I don't know if he's trying to push my buttons, make me jealous, or trying to make me need him back with me so less of the responsibility is on me. I've realized that this behavior was not taking place until I stopped sleeping with him, set boundaries and became clear about moving forward with the divorce so I feel it's somewhat intentional.
Once we sign that agreement we have to abide by it, whether he helps with the kids 0 days a week or 7 days a week and I 'm really thinking that I'm selling myself short. I'm still "fearing him" in a sense, not physically but worried about his reaction and the repercussions of his anger-he's so spiteful and vindictive. Almost my entire relationship I've just taken things (not everything but most things) and sucked it up to avoid an argument, his anger, or his woe is me attitude. Before he ever saw the 1st agreement that I'd written he was begging me to tell him what I was asking for monthly and even made a comment - "whatever I give you is for my kids, if you think I'm giving you money to put into your pocket I will quit my job first".
I really need after school help with the kids sometimes, not everyday just days where I want to go to therapy, al-anon, work out, etc. I need weekend help sometimes too. This all costs money, ts becoming too much for my father to help me, he's in his mid 60's and his health is not the greatest. I say all that just to say that I feel like I need to increase the amount that I'm going to ask AH for when we divorce but I'm not looking forward to the repercussions. He's going to say I'm being spiteful and ask me why am I changing the amount. I don't know what amount I want to change it to, I don't even know what "fair" is to myself anymore, I've been so worried about appeasing him all the time.
I had drawn up terms & conditions for my soon to be divorce. I've recently become conflicted about the amount of $$ I'm asking from AH on a monthly basis. Here in NY the child support is 17% for 1 child and 25% for 2 children, I believe that child care is not included, that has to be added. I've always thought that this was unfair to the person paying the support and the amount should be calculated on a case by case basis. AH and I have have 2 children but I feel like 25% of his income is a bit much, I want him to still be able to maintain a decent life for himself. When we were together he paid the rent and I paid the utilities and the kid's tuition. When I told him I was ready to move on I asked that he then start paying half of their expenses (tuition, clothing, etc.). He did gripe and complain, asking me how do I expect him to live, I pay less rent than him because I live with my family....blah blah blah. Since then he's been giving the half that I asked for.
When I drew up the agreement earlier in the year (at this time it was for a legal separation) he was drinking and binging, hardly coming around and leaving me to deal with everything. He was barely coming over to help with the kids because he was either drunk or depressed. I had asked (in the agreement) that he give me 75% of their costs plus an additional $100 per month. This was given to him but he never read it, he kept leaving it at my house and never took it home to go over it. He couldn't take the separation and ended up in rehab (2nd time). Shortly after he returned we ended up trying to work things out so the agreement was no longer. A few months ago when I proposed the separation again he said he either wanted us to work on the marriage or get a divorce so I said divorce because I didn't have it in me to watch him pick and choose his recovery methods and watch him fail. I re-wrote the agreement (about 2 months ago) but this time I revised the amount. He was then coming around 3-4 days a week and relieving me of a lot (homework, bathing, feeding, watching, etc.) I thought it would be fair to readjust the figures to 50% of their costs with an additional $300 per month to go towards misc. things such as groceries, house bills, baby sitter fees (when I find another, as I'm still searching), etc.
My therapist kept urging me to journal daily, 2 weeks ago I finally took her advice and I'm glad I did. For the past 2 weeks RAH (he says he's sober almost 3 months, not sure I quite believe him) has been late on EVERY occasion or just completely cancelled. His time with the kids has been decreasing. He's acts so busy tending to his side music career (and I suspect other things but can't be sure) ..."sorry I got tied up doing this", "sorry my associates were shooting a movie, "I have to make a quick run before I come", etc. The excuses go on. I don't know if he's trying to push my buttons, make me jealous, or trying to make me need him back with me so less of the responsibility is on me. I've realized that this behavior was not taking place until I stopped sleeping with him, set boundaries and became clear about moving forward with the divorce so I feel it's somewhat intentional.
Once we sign that agreement we have to abide by it, whether he helps with the kids 0 days a week or 7 days a week and I 'm really thinking that I'm selling myself short. I'm still "fearing him" in a sense, not physically but worried about his reaction and the repercussions of his anger-he's so spiteful and vindictive. Almost my entire relationship I've just taken things (not everything but most things) and sucked it up to avoid an argument, his anger, or his woe is me attitude. Before he ever saw the 1st agreement that I'd written he was begging me to tell him what I was asking for monthly and even made a comment - "whatever I give you is for my kids, if you think I'm giving you money to put into your pocket I will quit my job first".
I really need after school help with the kids sometimes, not everyday just days where I want to go to therapy, al-anon, work out, etc. I need weekend help sometimes too. This all costs money, ts becoming too much for my father to help me, he's in his mid 60's and his health is not the greatest. I say all that just to say that I feel like I need to increase the amount that I'm going to ask AH for when we divorce but I'm not looking forward to the repercussions. He's going to say I'm being spiteful and ask me why am I changing the amount. I don't know what amount I want to change it to, I don't even know what "fair" is to myself anymore, I've been so worried about appeasing him all the time.
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,572
I don't know about NY, but in Illinois (the state where my child support order resides) there have to be very compelling reasons to adjust upward or downward from the statutory support percentage. You may not have a lot of flexibility, no matter how much you want it. The judge may just look at the numbers, and order a certain amount, regardless of what you guys try to agree to.
And don't you worry about whether he is mad or not, or what YOU think is or isn't fair. As you said, you're so traumatized at this point it's hard to even be objective about what is fair. If he's going to challenge something anyway, the judge will make the ultimate decision. And believe me...the judge has, in all likelihood, seen it all and knows how to do the math.
And don't you worry about whether he is mad or not, or what YOU think is or isn't fair. As you said, you're so traumatized at this point it's hard to even be objective about what is fair. If he's going to challenge something anyway, the judge will make the ultimate decision. And believe me...the judge has, in all likelihood, seen it all and knows how to do the math.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
This is about your kids' well-being. You are not responsible for how he feels about what you ask for. If he cannot manage it or thinks it is unfair, he has the route of legal negotiation to pursue.
Ultimately you should be dealing with your lawyer to work out what you want, and he should be dealing with his. Then you don't have to hear threats about quitting to avoid putting money in YOUR pocket. Your lawyer can help you work out what is Fair without the emotional baggage you, understandably, bring to the table.
In the meantime, start looking at alternate care for when you cannot count on him (and your journal proves you can't) and track how much it costs.
Ultimately you should be dealing with your lawyer to work out what you want, and he should be dealing with his. Then you don't have to hear threats about quitting to avoid putting money in YOUR pocket. Your lawyer can help you work out what is Fair without the emotional baggage you, understandably, bring to the table.
In the meantime, start looking at alternate care for when you cannot count on him (and your journal proves you can't) and track how much it costs.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,439
Go for the maximum amount. If you have extra at the end of the month, set-up college accounts for the kids.
Once it's settled, it will be a whole lot harder to come back later and get more. It's not unrealistic to expect him to support his kids.
Once it's settled, it will be a whole lot harder to come back later and get more. It's not unrealistic to expect him to support his kids.
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,572
And as for him quitting his job to avoid paying, well...that's the kind of move that gets someone held in contempt of court and sent to jail. The court may very well impute income to him in that case, in which case his debt to you will just continue to grow. The state will put liens on his tax refunds to collect on that debt.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 3,050
I avoided going after child support in the beginning because I feared my ex's reaction. I was stuck in the memories of my dad ranting to us kids about the "fortune" he was paying my mom every month, convinced she was living this extravagant lifestyle on his dime.
It's hard to let go of worrying about their reactions, especially when it's so ingrained in us to tiptoe around them trying not to rock the boat.
Remember that you are fighting for your children. He is fighting for money to drink. Keep telling yourself that.
It's hard to let go of worrying about their reactions, especially when it's so ingrained in us to tiptoe around them trying not to rock the boat.
Remember that you are fighting for your children. He is fighting for money to drink. Keep telling yourself that.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 5,700
Think of it in terms of whose welfare are you more concerned about, your children or him. I know nothing about how the law works regarding support, others with more knowledge have already chimed in, but on principle I'd suggest getting as much as you can if for no other reason that Ladyscribbler's last sentence.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Dimndaruf.......as I have told many others....and, what I had to learn the hard way, myself.....you are going to have to grow a thicker skin. Like a thick rhino skin.
They get mad about a lot of things. And, that becomes their own problem to deal with. You don't have to "feel" everything that he feels. (that is what co-dependency is).
My dad always said "they can stay mad till they get glad"
This is where you MUST have the counsel of your lawyer.....that is what they are for. They do this every day...and so do the courts....They know what is fair or not.....
By the way , if he were to not pay child support.... there are now laws for dealing with "deadbeat dads".
It is kind of standard for many fathers (not all) to complain about what they have to pay for child support. While the mother may be struggling and straining to put a square meal on the table for the kids...the dad will be complaining to his buddies and all that will listen.....that she is blowing all the money on herself and her pleasures.....
Remember.....he is not the king of the forest. Just because he is disgruntled......the earth will still spin on it's axis and the locusts will not come....
dandylion
They get mad about a lot of things. And, that becomes their own problem to deal with. You don't have to "feel" everything that he feels. (that is what co-dependency is).
My dad always said "they can stay mad till they get glad"
This is where you MUST have the counsel of your lawyer.....that is what they are for. They do this every day...and so do the courts....They know what is fair or not.....
By the way , if he were to not pay child support.... there are now laws for dealing with "deadbeat dads".
It is kind of standard for many fathers (not all) to complain about what they have to pay for child support. While the mother may be struggling and straining to put a square meal on the table for the kids...the dad will be complaining to his buddies and all that will listen.....that she is blowing all the money on herself and her pleasures.....
Remember.....he is not the king of the forest. Just because he is disgruntled......the earth will still spin on it's axis and the locusts will not come....
dandylion
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
the courts set these guidelines for a good reason - to assure that the residential parent has the funds necessary to properly provide for the CHILDREN. how the non-custodial parent FEELS about that is irrelevant. they don't have an "annoyance factor" as part of the equation.
i strongly suggest that you stop discussing these financial matters with your stbxah.....you just dig yourself into a hole. NOTHING you offer is going to appease him and appeasing him has left the building.
i'd also suggest you find other childcare resources - he has demonstrated that he is incapable and unwilling to be reliable. those are just the FACTS. he does not have a vested interest in the well being of the children....and in fact is probably doing back flips to no longer HAVE that responsibility.
from now on speak only to your attorney about the nuts and bolts of the divorce petition. don't keep handing the guy with the gun MORE bullets.
i strongly suggest that you stop discussing these financial matters with your stbxah.....you just dig yourself into a hole. NOTHING you offer is going to appease him and appeasing him has left the building.
i'd also suggest you find other childcare resources - he has demonstrated that he is incapable and unwilling to be reliable. those are just the FACTS. he does not have a vested interest in the well being of the children....and in fact is probably doing back flips to no longer HAVE that responsibility.
from now on speak only to your attorney about the nuts and bolts of the divorce petition. don't keep handing the guy with the gun MORE bullets.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Great advice up there--this lawyer can't think of anything to add. (Of course, if I were charging for my advice, that might be a different story, lol.)
Bottom line is that it's your CHILDREN'S right to support, not YOUR right. The guidelines exist because in most instances they are considered fair. To the extent they may not be, in a particular case, let him argue for a lower amount.
Bottom line is that it's your CHILDREN'S right to support, not YOUR right. The guidelines exist because in most instances they are considered fair. To the extent they may not be, in a particular case, let him argue for a lower amount.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Laurelton
Posts: 178
I forgot to mention that I own a house (sole owner), purchased earlier this year. I don't live there, its just an investment property (he was upset that he wasn't included in the purchase, said he's going to purchase his own) that I began looking into when I started to feel like at some point he was going to lose his job, or kill himself (or someone else in a DUI and go to jail) and I needed to become more financially stable as I made my way out of the relationship. We both agreed initially that we each leave with what we came with, I wont take any of his pension or $$ and he won't have anything to do with my house.
I'm scared that if I "rock the boat" too hard that his vindication will kick in and he'll want half o my house. Since it was purchased while we were married he has rights to half unless he signs it away at the time of divorce. If he does that I will then go for full child support which will be over $2k per month....ouch!!! Things just going to get really nasty......
I'm scared that if I "rock the boat" too hard that his vindication will kick in and he'll want half o my house. Since it was purchased while we were married he has rights to half unless he signs it away at the time of divorce. If he does that I will then go for full child support which will be over $2k per month....ouch!!! Things just going to get really nasty......
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,430
My mother settled for far less in support than she was entitled to,
and as a result, I did without a lot of things my peers had as "givens"
In the end, I had to pay all my own college and because she was so broke,
I took loans to cover it which are still hanging over my head at 50.
Get the support, and any extra bank for the kid's education and future expenses.
This is their future you're negotiating. Be fair to them, and don't worry about him.
and as a result, I did without a lot of things my peers had as "givens"
In the end, I had to pay all my own college and because she was so broke,
I took loans to cover it which are still hanging over my head at 50.
Get the support, and any extra bank for the kid's education and future expenses.
This is their future you're negotiating. Be fair to them, and don't worry about him.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 3,050
Originally Posted by Hawkeye13 
My mother settled for far less in support than she was entitled to,
and as a result, I did without a lot of things my peers had as "givens"
In the end, I had to pay all my own college and because she was so broke,
I took loans to cover it which are still hanging over my head at 50.
Get the support, and any extra bank for the kid's education and future expenses.
This is their future you're negotiating. Be fair to them, and don't worry about him.
and as a result, I did without a lot of things my peers had as "givens"
In the end, I had to pay all my own college and because she was so broke,
I took loans to cover it which are still hanging over my head at 50.
Get the support, and any extra bank for the kid's education and future expenses.
This is their future you're negotiating. Be fair to them, and don't worry about him.
She also trusted him to be the custodian of our college funds that they had started when we were born without getting anything in writing, and the day before my 18th birthday he went down to the credit union with his second wife who forged my signature and closed the account. I never saw a penny of that money, and ended up joining the Army to pay off my student loans.
My ex husband (not an alcoholic) passed away and left everything to his second wife because I was a dummy and didn't make provisions in our divorce decree for the care of our son in the event of his death.
Get every penny that is due for your children's care. Get everything in writing. Don't worry about being the bad guy.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Dimndaruf, 25% of his income doesn't sound like an awful lot to me when you start adding up how much it actually costs to care for and raise children. When I initially left AXH I hesitated to make the child support "official". There were a whole slew of reasons: I felt guilty - I'd left him, I was afraid he'd get angry, I felt guilty because he was couch-surfing with his friends and 'still looking for a place [he] could afford without' me, I thought that MAYBE if I didn't ask him for support money, I wouldn't have to send our son to whatever using-buddy's place AXH was crashing at the time.
So, DS and I lived in a one bedroom apartment. I struggled to pay rent, car, insurance, child care, all the utilities and bills. When my lease expired and they raised the rent, we moved in with my sister and her family. One of my posts here touched on the topic of child support and was reminded that child support is for _DS_.
However, it took my sister asking how much AXH was paying to support DS for me to realize that his promises to send or bring money never materialized. Then she, accountant that she is, sat down with me and asked me to go through my bank statement to add up all the costs directly related to caring for DS: child care, food, clothes.
Then she asked: "OK. How do you get DS to child care?" My car. "Is that free?" No. "OK, a part of that cost -- car payment, insurance, gas, repairs -- can be attributed to being related the care of my nephew." But, I'd have the car regardless of whether or not I was a mom. Her response was that that was true, and pointed out than when I use my car for work, the company reimburses me at least for mileage and parking, and asked that I consider it in that light.
"Does your health insurance cover just you?" No, it covers DS, too. "Is it free?" No, a cost is deducted from my wages. "OK. How much does the portion for DS's coverage cost?"
We went down the list of living costs. It adds up. And the thing is, if AXH and I were together and we did the same exercise and calculated the how much of our income went to those costs (and he was a decent husband and father who had actually contributed funds to our household rather than to drugs and alcohol), his portion of the bills would have been much higher than the 20% of his income the support guidelines for our state outline.
There are rules and regulations in place related to child support payments for a reason. And the Federal Consumer Credit Protection Act limits how much can be garnished from paychecks, even if there is a large amount of back support payments owed.
He may have to adjust his living arrangements and spending habits, but you'll have to do that, too. He'll be OK even if he does pay according to the guidelines. And if he doesn't revise his spending habits, if he doesn't budget appropriately, that's not your fault.
So, DS and I lived in a one bedroom apartment. I struggled to pay rent, car, insurance, child care, all the utilities and bills. When my lease expired and they raised the rent, we moved in with my sister and her family. One of my posts here touched on the topic of child support and was reminded that child support is for _DS_.
However, it took my sister asking how much AXH was paying to support DS for me to realize that his promises to send or bring money never materialized. Then she, accountant that she is, sat down with me and asked me to go through my bank statement to add up all the costs directly related to caring for DS: child care, food, clothes.
Then she asked: "OK. How do you get DS to child care?" My car. "Is that free?" No. "OK, a part of that cost -- car payment, insurance, gas, repairs -- can be attributed to being related the care of my nephew." But, I'd have the car regardless of whether or not I was a mom. Her response was that that was true, and pointed out than when I use my car for work, the company reimburses me at least for mileage and parking, and asked that I consider it in that light.
"Does your health insurance cover just you?" No, it covers DS, too. "Is it free?" No, a cost is deducted from my wages. "OK. How much does the portion for DS's coverage cost?"
We went down the list of living costs. It adds up. And the thing is, if AXH and I were together and we did the same exercise and calculated the how much of our income went to those costs (and he was a decent husband and father who had actually contributed funds to our household rather than to drugs and alcohol), his portion of the bills would have been much higher than the 20% of his income the support guidelines for our state outline.
There are rules and regulations in place related to child support payments for a reason. And the Federal Consumer Credit Protection Act limits how much can be garnished from paychecks, even if there is a large amount of back support payments owed.
He may have to adjust his living arrangements and spending habits, but you'll have to do that, too. He'll be OK even if he does pay according to the guidelines. And if he doesn't revise his spending habits, if he doesn't budget appropriately, that's not your fault.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
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ladyscribbler, have you talked with an attorney about your son's right to support? In many states there is a right to support during minority even if there is no bequest to the minor child.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Laurelton
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by LexieCat
ladyscribbler, have you talked with an attorney about your son's right to support? In many states there is a right to support during minority even if there is no bequest to the minor child.
Thanks Lexie!
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Iowa
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Originally Posted by LexieCat
ladyscribbler, have you talked with an attorney about your son's right to support? In many states there is a right to support during minority even if there is no bequest to the minor child.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
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I'd call the bar referral service in the county where he lived. Just tell them you would like to consult with someone who practices wills and estates law. You should be able to get a quick consult for free.
I had to find a Minnesota lawyer to handle the intestate transfer of the farm property my mom owned with her siblings after her parents' death. It was a pretty simple matter, we did everything by phone/mail (pre-Internet).
I had to find a Minnesota lawyer to handle the intestate transfer of the farm property my mom owned with her siblings after her parents' death. It was a pretty simple matter, we did everything by phone/mail (pre-Internet).
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
i strongly suggest that you stop discussing these financial matters with your stbxah.....you just dig yourself into a hole. NOTHING you offer is going to appease him and appeasing him has left the building.
i'd also suggest you find other childcare resources - he has demonstrated that he is incapable and unwilling to be reliable.
from now on speak only to your attorney about the nuts and bolts of the divorce petition. don't keep handing the guy with the gun MORE bullets.
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