circular arguing
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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circular arguing
Trying to have a rational discussion with an alcoholic is maddening. Why must they constantly position themselves in the victim chair? Why must they ruin every holiday, birthday, anniversary. Why? My birthday is this weekend. Sorry just having a rough day.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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They have to do those things to deflect attention away from the addiction--it's a way of protecting it. Many alcoholics aren't even aware they are doing it. It's instinctive.
Can you plan something for your birthday that he CAN'T ruin? Meeting a friend for lunch, or shopping for a gift for yourself? One thing that helped me when I was with my alcoholic partners was to keep my expectations for their behavior very low. I learned that they could not be counted on to behave the way I'd like them to, and proceeded accordingly.
Can you plan something for your birthday that he CAN'T ruin? Meeting a friend for lunch, or shopping for a gift for yourself? One thing that helped me when I was with my alcoholic partners was to keep my expectations for their behavior very low. I learned that they could not be counted on to behave the way I'd like them to, and proceeded accordingly.
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Thanks Lexie,
The they can't behave the way I expect them too is a big one that trips me up a lot. I just want to be treated in a loving manner and with respect. Once he starts this behavior it usually lasts no matter how I react to it.
If I go out without him he will fly into a rage most likely. Saying that I don't want to be around him thus placing himself in the victim chair. If I stay home he will be rude to me. If I try to discuss things with him he argues around and around in circles declaring that Now he knows how I feel about him. Victim chair again. If I agree with everything he says..... well you know. It doesn't end. Round and Round.... the crazy train.
The they can't behave the way I expect them too is a big one that trips me up a lot. I just want to be treated in a loving manner and with respect. Once he starts this behavior it usually lasts no matter how I react to it.
If I go out without him he will fly into a rage most likely. Saying that I don't want to be around him thus placing himself in the victim chair. If I stay home he will be rude to me. If I try to discuss things with him he argues around and around in circles declaring that Now he knows how I feel about him. Victim chair again. If I agree with everything he says..... well you know. It doesn't end. Round and Round.... the crazy train.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
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Yeah, but here's the thing. You aren't responsible for managing his emotions. If he rages, let him rage (unless by "raging" you mean you'd be in danger). Let him pout, let him sulk. Let him play the victim.
You can say, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm looking forward to seeing my friend. I'll see you later." And GO. It may feel uncomfortable at first, but unless you would be putting yourself in danger, it's his problem, not yours.
You can say, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm looking forward to seeing my friend. I'll see you later." And GO. It may feel uncomfortable at first, but unless you would be putting yourself in danger, it's his problem, not yours.
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 89
I had grown to hate my birthday and Mother's Day. Even when my AH is not drunk, he seems to go out of his way to make my special day as miserable as possible. Last year's Mother's Day especially just seemed bizarre, the way he pouted over every last thing. It was as if he felt slighted that I had a holiday honoring me.
The answer for me is to allow special days to be extremely low-expectation, but plan something nice for myself (often with my kids) on another day. If I deliberately leave him out of celebrations on the day, he works himself into a pity tizzy about how he's been just left in the dust. If I plan anything special on my day, well he will find a way to make me feel completely unappreciated.
I sure hope you have a wonderful birthday, and honor yourself and all that you've accomplished in this life! He probably won't behave as you'd expect a normal person to, so just plan around him. Don't let him get you down.
Happy Birthday!
The answer for me is to allow special days to be extremely low-expectation, but plan something nice for myself (often with my kids) on another day. If I deliberately leave him out of celebrations on the day, he works himself into a pity tizzy about how he's been just left in the dust. If I plan anything special on my day, well he will find a way to make me feel completely unappreciated.
I sure hope you have a wonderful birthday, and honor yourself and all that you've accomplished in this life! He probably won't behave as you'd expect a normal person to, so just plan around him. Don't let him get you down.
Happy Birthday!
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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In order for an alcoholic to validate their drinking, they have to invalidate everything around them. That means many times, well, every time, you will find yourself defensive. You will defend things that you know need no defending and somehow you end up cornered anyway. You were convinced by the alcoholic, who so many times is a much better arguer than you are. Never argue with an alcoholic. You'll go nuts.
And it's almost better that it's your birthday (or any holiday, vacation, day you are looking forward to) ...for the alcoholic. It's likely you've trained them to know that you will do and say anything to have a good day.
You have three choices:
1. Prepare mentally to be defensive, which is exhausting
2. Detach and say "I'm sorry you're angry" (or something like it) over and over, and you get ready really really quickly and leave as soon as possible to do something pre-planned and fun.
3. Spend the day away from the alcoholic with friends, family, or just alone and getting a mental break.
And it's almost better that it's your birthday (or any holiday, vacation, day you are looking forward to) ...for the alcoholic. It's likely you've trained them to know that you will do and say anything to have a good day.
You have three choices:
1. Prepare mentally to be defensive, which is exhausting
2. Detach and say "I'm sorry you're angry" (or something like it) over and over, and you get ready really really quickly and leave as soon as possible to do something pre-planned and fun.
3. Spend the day away from the alcoholic with friends, family, or just alone and getting a mental break.
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I do have a tendency to try to smooth things over because he won't. I have even appologized to him when I felt that I haven't done anything wrong just so he will stop acting like a jerk. Pathetic I know. I will try this. It's so hard not to react to his antics. Often his behavior comes out of nowhere like someone yanking a rug out from under you when you are just going about your day.
Thank you everyone for listening and the advice. Thanks for the birthday wishes too.
Thank you everyone for listening and the advice. Thanks for the birthday wishes too.
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Thank you TJD912, I never thought of it that way. Him having to invalidate everything around him. Yep, I go into defense mode. " Never argue with an alcoholic. You'll go nuts." Oh boy is that ever a true statement. Thank you for your thoughts they are helpful.
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Tell him your going to be celebrating your birthday at a special restaurant. You'll meet him there after you pick up the cake.
Then go somewhere else.
Happy Birthday, Onceaponatime!!!!!!!!!!
Then go somewhere else.
Happy Birthday, Onceaponatime!!!!!!!!!!
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Sorry I feel your pain even though I'm the "A" in recovery. I also have a birthday this weekend so happy birthday to us. Not to take away from your vent but the type of behavior you're seeing is common but not limited to alcoholics. I see this very frequently in two very close family members who are not alcoholics but very much co-dependent. Frankly I'll be seeing this in my Mother this weekend and likely get a bunch of it and she rarely drinks anything stronger than iced tea.
Not to hijack your thread. Regarding your husband. There is absolutely NO WAY I would try and have any kind of conversation with somebody that is actively drinking. In my recovery group there's a rule that you cannot participate if you are under the influence. I also saw this rule in rehab and people to be found under the influence would and were asked to leave. I candidly admit that while drinking there were plenty of the specifics of conversations that I flat out didn't remember. Its a waste of your time. I'd disengage as quickly as possible. If he's mad let him be mad. I'm terrible at letting people just be angry but as part of my own recovery I'm digging in deep and starting to understand how harmful it can be to ourselves to try and please people that simply cannot be pleased.
Best wishes and happy birthday!
Not to hijack your thread. Regarding your husband. There is absolutely NO WAY I would try and have any kind of conversation with somebody that is actively drinking. In my recovery group there's a rule that you cannot participate if you are under the influence. I also saw this rule in rehab and people to be found under the influence would and were asked to leave. I candidly admit that while drinking there were plenty of the specifics of conversations that I flat out didn't remember. Its a waste of your time. I'd disengage as quickly as possible. If he's mad let him be mad. I'm terrible at letting people just be angry but as part of my own recovery I'm digging in deep and starting to understand how harmful it can be to ourselves to try and please people that simply cannot be pleased.
Best wishes and happy birthday!
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Onceuponatime2,
another thing about the arguing, at least with my AH, he seems to have 2 distinct periods of argumentative behavior. One when he is drinking/drunk. The other, when he's looking for an excuse to drink (kind of like I am such a bad person or my opinions are so stupid, that he "needs" and "deserves" to drink). Both of these just seem to be his justifications to drink, either is currently drinking, or about to drink.
I try not to react anymore, no matter how insane the argument sounds.And especially in scenario number 2, if he does go out drinking, then it's totally on him. When he will begin to realize that is unknown.
And further, because I understand his need to argue is linked to his wanting to drink, I can dismiss the crazy talk a little more readily. And I'm much less defensive. After all, his crazy argument is all about him, really, and not at all about me.
I like what TJD912 said about it being your birthday works in his favor, because he already knows how much you want your day to be special. I had never thought about it that way. But that sounds like my AH, and makes my own celebration planning to only marginally include my AH even more important.
Again, have an awesome birthday!
another thing about the arguing, at least with my AH, he seems to have 2 distinct periods of argumentative behavior. One when he is drinking/drunk. The other, when he's looking for an excuse to drink (kind of like I am such a bad person or my opinions are so stupid, that he "needs" and "deserves" to drink). Both of these just seem to be his justifications to drink, either is currently drinking, or about to drink.
I try not to react anymore, no matter how insane the argument sounds.And especially in scenario number 2, if he does go out drinking, then it's totally on him. When he will begin to realize that is unknown.
And further, because I understand his need to argue is linked to his wanting to drink, I can dismiss the crazy talk a little more readily. And I'm much less defensive. After all, his crazy argument is all about him, really, and not at all about me.
I like what TJD912 said about it being your birthday works in his favor, because he already knows how much you want your day to be special. I had never thought about it that way. But that sounds like my AH, and makes my own celebration planning to only marginally include my AH even more important.
Again, have an awesome birthday!
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Happy Birthday OUAT and Cookies! My birthday is also this weekend, but I've been buying myself gifts all week, lol.
I understand hating celebration days. I used to absolutely dread my birthdays when I was with my ex.
One of my all time favorite Alanon readings is on this very subject (not ruined birthdays, but defensiveness)
In order to keep family and friends from interfering with their drinking, alcoholics sometimes create diversions by accusing or provoking. At such a time, we who have been affected by someone else's drinking tend to react, to argue and to defend ourselves. As a result, nobody has to look at the alcoholism, for we are too busy focusing on the particular point being argued- any topic will do. And unfortunately, what we defend against we make real.
Courage to Change, pg 155
My ex elevated this particular type of crazymaking to an art form. He was the master of the phantom arguement. Now I know that the less I react, the less power it has over me. Today I find his attempts to draw me in to these fights laughable because they're so ridiculously transparent, but when I was living in the day to day craziness of active alcoholism it was really hard to rise above and not start slinging mud back at him.
Anyway, big shout out to my fellow Pisceans. Happy birthday all!
I understand hating celebration days. I used to absolutely dread my birthdays when I was with my ex.
One of my all time favorite Alanon readings is on this very subject (not ruined birthdays, but defensiveness)
In order to keep family and friends from interfering with their drinking, alcoholics sometimes create diversions by accusing or provoking. At such a time, we who have been affected by someone else's drinking tend to react, to argue and to defend ourselves. As a result, nobody has to look at the alcoholism, for we are too busy focusing on the particular point being argued- any topic will do. And unfortunately, what we defend against we make real.
Courage to Change, pg 155
My ex elevated this particular type of crazymaking to an art form. He was the master of the phantom arguement. Now I know that the less I react, the less power it has over me. Today I find his attempts to draw me in to these fights laughable because they're so ridiculously transparent, but when I was living in the day to day craziness of active alcoholism it was really hard to rise above and not start slinging mud back at him.
Anyway, big shout out to my fellow Pisceans. Happy birthday all!
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You'll never have a rational anything with an alcoholic until they're about a year or so into recovery. Sorry to jump in so blunt like that, but it's the truth. Have a good birthday doing something that doesn't involve him!
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My almost XAH (and it can't happen soon enough) does/did induce this arguing by gas lighting. (now it's through texts, which still induce stress in me...once I get my tax refund I am going no contact)
It's anxiety-producing, and yes, as ladyscribbler said, magically the drinking is no longer the focus, but whatever "topic" the alcoholic has now made the focus of your defensiveness. You need to take care of yourself...whatever that means to you. You'll literally go crazy if you don't. And then...the alcoholic looks sane...
It's anxiety-producing, and yes, as ladyscribbler said, magically the drinking is no longer the focus, but whatever "topic" the alcoholic has now made the focus of your defensiveness. You need to take care of yourself...whatever that means to you. You'll literally go crazy if you don't. And then...the alcoholic looks sane...
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Originally Posted by lillamy 
Arguing with an addict is like trying to eat broth with chopsticks. Useless and frustrating.
As to the original post: I have been there done that on so many occasions that I often felt like I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. There was no solution when it came to the alcoholic, who for many years was just a dry drunk. I learned how to live my life for myself and how to detach from his emotional manipulations and guilt trips, gas lighting, etc. It takes practice but it can be done. The more you practice what Lexie talked about above, the more skilled you become at making this part of your own healthy habits. NO time like the present to get started!! Have a great weekend!
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I have found that the broth shoots hot oil in my face too. They know us really well and know exactly how to make us feel like worthless bags of skin. And then they are totally innocent because of their superiority in all things.
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