cookiesncream

I apologize for posting here in the Friends and Family Forum when I am the one in recovery but am hoping you kind folks may have some suggestions for me.

I know that co-dependency is common in families dealing with an addiction so am taking a chance that maybe some of you may have some insights, resources (books/websites/etc). I have several close family members that in a zillion internet searches, reading books, etc meet many of the characteristics of co-dependency. Given the fact that my own four year addiction didn't take place until my mid-forties it’s hard for me to attribute their behavior on my own addiction issues so am trying to understand and cope with “bigger picture” stuff. I am really realizing (without booze it’s a lot easier to see clearly;-)) that I struggle mightily with coping in healthy ways with other people’s co-dependent behavior. I assume boundaries and a healthy dose of loving detachment are in order. I have been searching high and low on “co-dependency” but most of the resources seem to be geared to the co-dependent, not others around them. Any ideas or suggestions for me? Again I sincerely apologize if I’m posting in the wrong location. I also in no way mean for this question to be offensive or mean spirited so am hopeful it is not coming off that way.

Peace,
Cookies

ladyscribbler

As a codependent dealing with Codies who are not in recovery (my mom being the main one), your thoughts on boundaries and loving detachment are spot on.
It is pretty much like dealing with any other unhealthy behavior.
I resist the temptation to call my mom out too much on her stuff and try to understand where she is coming from. She grew up with a rageaholic father and her codependency and need to control others developed as a result of feeling constantly insecure and terrified as a child. I can have empathy for her, but at the same time, not be drawn into her way of thinking and dealing with the world.
Working my Alanon program has helped me a lot in dealing with her. I can't remember the last time I heard her say, "Not to tell you what to do but," or point out a problem that no one else either perceived or cared about and then proceed to offer detailed "suggestions" for a solution.
It was hard at first, because she was my model for adult womanhood, and seeing her unhealthy behaviors and thought patterns made me very aware of my own.

Needabreak

Well, assuming that you're in recovery and haven't been using for a while, I think the best way to deal with it is to detach from the codependent behavior and maintain your own healthy boundaries while they work through their issues.

My mother is horribly codependent and controlling, even with non-addicts, and there have been phases in our relationship (I'm 50 now) where I have gone more than a year without speaking to her. Three Christmases ago my brother and I went to visit my Mom and Dad, both of us spending a lot of time and money to get there -- and she cried for the entire weekend about how awful Christmases are today compared to when she was younger. Not just tears of reminiscence and missing people, but tearfully going on about how awful me and my brother are because we "didn't make her" feel special. The whole 3 days was one long guilt trip.

After it was over, my brother and I talked about the weekend, and decided that neither of us would ever put ourselves through that again. I didn't speak much to my mother afterward, and when the next Christmas came along, I didn't go. Instead took a nice tropical vacation. My brother and his family went to London. The howls and anguish about what awful kids we are went on and on. I sent one email to my mother stating that her behavior the previous Christmas was why I wasn't coming, that I wouldn't be treated that way NO MATTER WHAT, and didn't answer any other emails.

Well this year my brother and I were very nicely invited to come for Christmas. We came, and my mother was actually very pleasant. We cooked great food, had wonderful conversations, and had a great time.

I guess what I am getting at here, is that people have their own reasons for behaving the way they do, and when it happens you don't have to engage. If you do, you're only encouraging their dysfunctional behavior. In that awful Christmas 3 years ago, I honestly think that my mother was projecting frustration with my father toward me and my brother. But it was inappropriate and I wasn't going to take it. When they start treating us with a lack of respect, then it's time to place a boundary.

It's not all that different from the lessons I've learned to not engage with addicts when addiction raises its ugly head.

cookiesncream

Thanks all. To answer your question Needabreak yes I am in recovery and will be hitting my one year mark in a few weeks. In my recovery group which is a women's group for recovery we do a lot of "thinking through the drink"-aka asking ourselves what were we trying to medicate and how can I handle those issues in healthy ways? This I have found to be the #1 most useful tool in my recovery box.

That said I relate to all of your mother stories oh so much. Of the codies in my life my mother likely takes the cake for the worst though-my opinion varies on the worst varies by day;-) Her bad behavior gets dealt out to all around her so I know its nothing personal. I have wondered recently each time I get put on a guilt trips and apologizing for things I don't think I should need to apologize for (aka trying to be in two places at the same time) whether I'm not just feeding and encouraging this behavior? With my Mom the probably the WORST guilt trip was the time she was counting days between phone calls unbeknownst to me and I got asked to go a therapy appointment with her in the guise of "I'm working through some issues I need your help with." I walked into that totally unaware of what I had just gotten myself into. I got told in front of her therapist what a cold, remote daughter I was and how unhappy she was, she was in therapy because of me. She also cried a river. I wound up apologizing for stuff I really didn't think I should apologize for (three weeks between phone calls, not spending enough mother-daughter time when I was over 35, etc, etc). I truly felt totally like I fed some massively unhealthy behavior that day.

I've read half of "Co-dependent no more" and I "think" I understand the psychology behind the issues. This applies to my Mom and others facing this issue I am close to. I do sympathize and I am empathetic "I think." Unfortunately I cannot solve self esteem issues. All of the phone calls, etc in the world can't resolve those issues. I do understand the need for emotional connection and to a point it is healthy. Unfortunately I don't think you can hold people hostage and realistically expect to get this need met. I also struggle with detaching however without angering the co-dependent even more and I cannot begin to count the number of times I've done this. That said in order to protect my own mental health I have got to find ways to do this in love and simply realizing they have their own issues that really I just cannot fix.

Thanks again. More google searches coming my way and a pile more stuff to add to my stack to talk about with my therapist.

Best,


Cookies

Impurrfect

Cookies - I was a raging codie before I ever became an addict. Obviously, as I turned to substances to "deal with" or "put up with" the A in my life. I'm now in recovery for addiction and codependency.

I read "Codependent no more" years and years ago, but it just didn't sink through my thick head. I read it again, a couple of years ago (years into recovery) and it finally got through.

What I will share is that by reading and eventually posting on the F&F forums, I have learned more than any book would ever teach me (and it is a really good book!).

I have several loved ones who are codies, and I keep reading here because I just don't want to get sucked into the drama again. It doesn't always deal with addiction, my dad is always wanting to rescue everyone then gets mad when they just turn around and ask for more money.

It was in my early days, here, that a dear friend taught me about the hula hoop. Picture yourself in a hula hoop - what is inside is YOURS to deal with. Anything outside of the hoop, not your stuff.

I've also taken to repeating NMP (not my problem) when I feel myself wanting to jump in and say or do something. I've learned this, and other things, from the great people here.

Yes, there are times I'm faced with anger when I don't get involved, but over time? I've found it blows over. There is often not a huge change in their behavior, but I'm now able to say "sorry, but I don't want to discuss this" and I don't.

It takes time and it's not easy, but it's a huge weight off of our shoulders when we realize that it's not up to us to make sure someone else's needs are met. Having known people like your mom, I'm pretty sure you could call her every day, do everything she says she wants you to, and she will still have something to blame on you.

Sorry you are having to deal with this, but once I realized that nothing was ever going to be enough, I finally started focusing on me.

Hugs and prayers,

Amy

dandylion

Here is the thing about co-dependency.....it often shows up like the devil wearing a Sunday dress.

dandylion

Needabreak

Kind of like addiction....

Seriously Cookies, congratulations on sticking to your recovery.

I often think that codependency and addiction are two different sides of the same mirror. I was never an addict, but I did have to learn how to deal with my overbearing codependent mother, and like Ladyscribbler said, I had to examine those traits within myself when my ex became addicted. And part of dealing with both my mother and my ex meant developing very solid boundaries, like the one I described above about Christmas and guilt trips.

When we are children we have to put up with these things because we are dependent on our parents. But once we reach a certain age, we just don't have to put up with these things anymore. From anybody. Ever.

Rosalba

You don't have to be an addict to find yourself on the receiving end of other people's codependent behaviour - people who are controlling in the guise of being helpful, but get angry when their uninvited 'help' is politely declined; a clinical psychologist I know who insists on telling me what's 'wrong' with me (whilst ignoring her own dysfunctional behaviour) and so on.

As with all unhealthy behaviours, I've found that the way to deal with it is to have a very clear sense of my own boundaries, and if someone's really persistent I'll say something like "Look, I don't experience your attitude as caring - I experience it as patronising and I feel very uncomfortable around it". Or just "Thanks for the feedback - when I want your help I'll ask for it!" In the case of the clinical psychologist I'd just respond with "No, ___, that's your stuff!"

In the case of the latter, I've gently let go and have nothing to do with her. Mostly, though, when people don't get the payoffs they're looking for - whatever those may be - they melt away and go elsewhere.

There are very useful chapters in both 'Women who Love too Much' and 'Letters from Women who Love too Much', both by Robin Norwood, on the flip side of codependency.

kj3880

My situation is similar to yours OP. I experienced a 3-4 year pain pill addiction in my 40's. Seven years later, my mom is coming across in a very codie mode and I never noticed it until I'd been clean for a while. She also loves to try to "trip my triggers' when I'm visiting. Here's an example:
This past Christmas, me and my two adult children and my grandson came over to my parents' house at about 11 am to exchange gifts. They stayed about an hour, then needed to leave as each of them wanted to visit my ex, their father. Since they'd brought another car, I stayed put to visit a bit with my siblings. About 20 minutes later, my daughter rang my cellphone to say "Our car broke isn't running well, and we don't want to drive it all the way to Dad's house."

I said "Oh, that's a shame! Can your Dad come get you?" After all, he only lives 20 minutes away. My daughter said "Never mind. It's just too much trouble. I'll visit him tomorrow. The baby isn't feeling that well anyway." That sounded reasonable to me, not that it was my issue, so I said "Okay, see you back at the house." I had other places to visit that afternoon, so I couldn't lend them my car.

My mom overheard this conversation, even though I'd spoken quietly in a crowded room. She spoke up after I hung up "Oh NO! Will they not see their dad, then?" I said "I guess not until at least tomorrow." She said "But can't Michelle (my ex's current wife, whom none of us has ever met, God knows how she even knows her name) cook while their dad comes to get them? They shouldn't have to miss seeing their dad on Christmas day!" Keep in mind, we are talking about two adults in their mid-twenties, one of whom has her own husband and child, not two elementary school kids. My mom: "Can't you take them up there on your way to Washington?" Me: "No, I'm not getting involved in that. If he wants to see them, he has a car." My Mom: "But it seems a shame! It's Christmas, after all!" Me: "Yes. And I brought my daughter and her family plane tickets so they could come home for Christmas. I bought them gifts. I set up a tree with them. I've helped her shop, watched my grandson, etc, etc, all at my house. This is their father's time. They need to work that out between them without me. Could be they just don't feel like going up there. The baby is sick, and they might all be very tired. But whatever the deal is, it is not my issue."

Anyway, she kept on me and on me to "do something, do something! until my dad stepped in, thank goodness to say "Can't you see this is not her problem? Leave her alone."

This type of thing happens almost every time I get together with her. She tries to suck me into other's problems and talk about things with me that are none of my business, like my sister's job issues, their marital issues, blah, blah blah. Ugh. Tiresome!

skylett

I found free audio co dependence books on free video web site ( not sure if we are allowed to but web site names here) I just realized I am a codependent . The thought makes me sad that I never knew this before. I hope u find a good book