Hope: The Downside
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Hope: The Downside
If you are Christian, you know that the Three Big Things are Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is Love.
But the Hope thing..
I happened to be watching a video by Derrick Jensen, the environmentalist, and he has spoken a lot about hope as it pertains to sustainability, and he's not too crazy about it. Sustainability has nothing to do with this forum, but he happened to mention his mother, who was married to a man who was extremely abusive:
I tend to be an optimist by nature, but his description of hope, and when it turns bad, is really provocative, especially for we who might be hanging our hats--well, more than our hats--our lives and our years--on hope.
So what do you think about hope? Has it served you well, or ill? Is it a cover for fear? Does it inhibit or promote action?
Just in case you're interested in his essay, Beyond Hope, here it is. It's really geared towards the environment and civilization, but there's a lot that we can apply to our own lives, and it's definitely food for thought.
But the Hope thing..
I happened to be watching a video by Derrick Jensen, the environmentalist, and he has spoken a lot about hope as it pertains to sustainability, and he's not too crazy about it. Sustainability has nothing to do with this forum, but he happened to mention his mother, who was married to a man who was extremely abusive:
One reason my mother stayed with my abusive father was that there were no battered women’s shelters in the ‘50s and ‘60s, but another was her false hope that he would change. False hopes bind us to unlivable situations, and blind us to real possibilities.
Hope is, in fact, a curse, a bane. I say this not only because of the lovely Buddhist saying “Hope and fear chase each other’s tails,” not only because hope leads us away from the present, away from who and where we are right now and toward some imaginary future state.
So what do you think about hope? Has it served you well, or ill? Is it a cover for fear? Does it inhibit or promote action?
Just in case you're interested in his essay, Beyond Hope, here it is. It's really geared towards the environment and civilization, but there's a lot that we can apply to our own lives, and it's definitely food for thought.
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 215
Thank you for sharing this. I really needed to hear this tonight. I always considered being a hopeful person as a positive but hope has seemed to bring me nothing but pain. I understand exactly what he is saying. Hope us not real- and it definitely can keep you from what is. Reality is a place that I need to start living in. Hope doesn't exist there.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
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Any desirable characteristic. e.g. hope, tolerance, generosity etc etc, can become a character defect if carried to extremes, or if expressed inappropriately.
In my opinion, hope is essential to survival. It's a very old concept: in the Greek myth of Pandora's Box, where all the evils to plague mankind were inadvertently let loose - delusive hope had also been included to stop mankind committing suicide.
False hopes do indeed bind us to unmanageable situations, but the key word here is 'false'. Perhaps a more realistic hope in the example you describe above would be that she would be fine without him, and that it would be OK to take steps to care for herself.
As an Alanon member, I joined in the hope that I would become more serene and that my life would be more manageable... it's a hope which is being increasingly realised.
Hope alone will not lead us away from who we are, away from the present, or towards an imaginary future state unless we stop taking action, taking inventory, prayer or whatever and imagine that because we wish it, something will magically happen. Hope needs to be allied with realistic appraisal or, to paraphrase somebody or other: "Trust in God, but keep your powder dry!"
In my opinion, hope is essential to survival. It's a very old concept: in the Greek myth of Pandora's Box, where all the evils to plague mankind were inadvertently let loose - delusive hope had also been included to stop mankind committing suicide.
False hopes do indeed bind us to unmanageable situations, but the key word here is 'false'. Perhaps a more realistic hope in the example you describe above would be that she would be fine without him, and that it would be OK to take steps to care for herself.
As an Alanon member, I joined in the hope that I would become more serene and that my life would be more manageable... it's a hope which is being increasingly realised.
Hope alone will not lead us away from who we are, away from the present, or towards an imaginary future state unless we stop taking action, taking inventory, prayer or whatever and imagine that because we wish it, something will magically happen. Hope needs to be allied with realistic appraisal or, to paraphrase somebody or other: "Trust in God, but keep your powder dry!"
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wild West, USA
Posts: 407
Hope has its place, and can be immensely valuable when I apply it to situations I have some control over. I have hopes for my own future, and that's good. But hope is a poor substitute for acceptance of things as they are.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
As saying you'll see around here sometimes is "Hope isn't a plan." Sure, have it. But don't let it become your only tool in trying to survive a relationship with an alcoholic. Very good read. Thank you.
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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I am hopeful. I like hope. I think the world needs hope to move forward. Hope for medical cures, hope for peace, etc... However, like NWGRITS wrote, hope is not a plan.
I find it is important to be realistic about whatever the situation might be and emphasize logic, reality and common sense. Especially when dealing with people we know to be mentally sick, hope is a nice optimistic general view about the future, but it is not concrete. It will not pay the bills, meet our needs or care for us when we are ill.
Honestly, I like the idea and philosophical aspect of a concept like hope, but (for me) it doesn't belong in day-to-day dealings with A's or practical matters.
I find it is important to be realistic about whatever the situation might be and emphasize logic, reality and common sense. Especially when dealing with people we know to be mentally sick, hope is a nice optimistic general view about the future, but it is not concrete. It will not pay the bills, meet our needs or care for us when we are ill.
Honestly, I like the idea and philosophical aspect of a concept like hope, but (for me) it doesn't belong in day-to-day dealings with A's or practical matters.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
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For me, hope is like luck. All well and good to have it, but i still need to be emotionally, mentally and physically prepared to deal with both challenges and opportunities alike, positive and negative. I wasted a lot of good years hoping my situations would improve but not doing anything about it.
I have an audition tomorrow night. I hope I get the role. But that isn't enough. I have to read the play, get very familiar with the sides, and make choices about how I would play the character. Then I have about ten minutes to show 'em what I've got. After that, there are about eight million factors that will either work in my favor or not. I can't do anything about those, so I am going to spend a lot less time hoping those factors work for me and a lot more time working on my choices. Then either way I will be able to walk out of that audition knowing I did everything I could do to make myself a viable option for casting. Then i will go home, work out and spend a nice evening with my husband NOT worrying about whether I got the part.
I have an audition tomorrow night. I hope I get the role. But that isn't enough. I have to read the play, get very familiar with the sides, and make choices about how I would play the character. Then I have about ten minutes to show 'em what I've got. After that, there are about eight million factors that will either work in my favor or not. I can't do anything about those, so I am going to spend a lot less time hoping those factors work for me and a lot more time working on my choices. Then either way I will be able to walk out of that audition knowing I did everything I could do to make myself a viable option for casting. Then i will go home, work out and spend a nice evening with my husband NOT worrying about whether I got the part.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
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Oh man, I used to love Derrick Jensen. He has a lot of excellent general life wisdom and philosophy tied up in his sustainability lectures and books.
Today I lean less towards hope and longing, and more towards compassion, acceptance, facts and deliberation. To me it's the difference between trying to build sand castles on sand foundations, and building rock castles on rock foundations. The sand castles sure are pretty, but they just aren't stable. The rock castles are colder and a little more difficult, but they're built to last.
Today I lean less towards hope and longing, and more towards compassion, acceptance, facts and deliberation. To me it's the difference between trying to build sand castles on sand foundations, and building rock castles on rock foundations. The sand castles sure are pretty, but they just aren't stable. The rock castles are colder and a little more difficult, but they're built to last.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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It seems like hope is a form of Lite-expectation........?
Given all this serious discussion of the subject, it seems like we, maybe, ought to consider doing away with hope all together. No hope...no disappointment. No problema.
But, then, I think.....that would bring pessimism to the forefront. And, pessimism seems so dark and depressing. Tends to stop us from pushing forward. No forward push...no civilization (ultimately). Now, we have a problema..
Wow...I have got myself into a delimma.
I think I will go and drink the juice off a can of peaches and pop a length of bubble wrap and think about this some more. I hope that will help.
dandylion
Given all this serious discussion of the subject, it seems like we, maybe, ought to consider doing away with hope all together. No hope...no disappointment. No problema.
But, then, I think.....that would bring pessimism to the forefront. And, pessimism seems so dark and depressing. Tends to stop us from pushing forward. No forward push...no civilization (ultimately). Now, we have a problema..
Wow...I have got myself into a delimma.
I think I will go and drink the juice off a can of peaches and pop a length of bubble wrap and think about this some more. I hope that will help.
dandylion
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Powerless ... and free
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Hope is tied to faith, from a Christian perspective. It is hope, through faith in things unseen. It is hope in the grace and glory of God.
That alone is how I am able to find peace and joy, in the storm and chaos that is my life.
I don't think the Apostle Paul meant for us to put our hope in human persons. Or to hope that a person will change to suit us.
That alone is how I am able to find peace and joy, in the storm and chaos that is my life.
I don't think the Apostle Paul meant for us to put our hope in human persons. Or to hope that a person will change to suit us.
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Thanks for your perspective, everyone. I definitely identify with peaceofpi in terms of the spiritual dimension of Hope. But I was fascinated with how hope could be misused or abused by using it as a mask for fear and justification for inaction. It gave me something to meditate on when examining my personal motives.
The last time I had a really, really, meaningful exchange with hope was 29 years ago, when AH was into alcohol and cocaine abuse and I had three children, the youngest just months old. We had no money for the mortgage. I was working full time at a secretary's salary. I was feeling very hopeless about my situation.
Then I was pregnant. I freaked out and went to an family planning clinic that provided abortions and while I was waiting for my appointment, I picked up a scrapbook they had with a whole bunch of articles about women's health and I picked up on one quote that said, "The real tragedy of abortion is.. that it represents the loss of hope." [NOTE: I am pro-choice--just want to make that clear before continuing]
I thought about my own despair at that point, and then asked myself the question, "do I have enough love left in me to make this work?" and I came up with a yes. So the point is, I used hope, rather than despair, to choose how I was going to act. And boy, did I make the right decision! My daughter is an unbelievable human being in every way.
So, in this context, if you use hope to make a decision, you can tell yourself that no matter how hard it will be, if you take right action and not hide behind hope like a smokescreen; if you decide what to do or what not to do based on hope and NOT fear--because sometimes hope means accepting a journey that might be difficult--then hope is good and holy.
If you know that the prison cell door is unlocked but you sit in it hoping it will fly open, you're still going to be in prison for a long time until you figure out that you have to open the door and walk out yourself.
The last time I had a really, really, meaningful exchange with hope was 29 years ago, when AH was into alcohol and cocaine abuse and I had three children, the youngest just months old. We had no money for the mortgage. I was working full time at a secretary's salary. I was feeling very hopeless about my situation.
Then I was pregnant. I freaked out and went to an family planning clinic that provided abortions and while I was waiting for my appointment, I picked up a scrapbook they had with a whole bunch of articles about women's health and I picked up on one quote that said, "The real tragedy of abortion is.. that it represents the loss of hope." [NOTE: I am pro-choice--just want to make that clear before continuing]
I thought about my own despair at that point, and then asked myself the question, "do I have enough love left in me to make this work?" and I came up with a yes. So the point is, I used hope, rather than despair, to choose how I was going to act. And boy, did I make the right decision! My daughter is an unbelievable human being in every way.
So, in this context, if you use hope to make a decision, you can tell yourself that no matter how hard it will be, if you take right action and not hide behind hope like a smokescreen; if you decide what to do or what not to do based on hope and NOT fear--because sometimes hope means accepting a journey that might be difficult--then hope is good and holy.
If you know that the prison cell door is unlocked but you sit in it hoping it will fly open, you're still going to be in prison for a long time until you figure out that you have to open the door and walk out yourself.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 214
Hope is not a foundation to build the future on.
When I realized that, I made different decisions. Realistically, alcoholics and addicts have a strong likelihood of relapse. Abusive behavior doesn't always end when people stop drinking.
My fantasy, my hope, was that my ex would stop drinking. Then, the kind moments would be all the time. I was basing my life on a hope that someone else would beat the odds.
When I let go of that hope, things got better. I looked at ways to support his recovery and mine, and set boundaries. I went to al anon and a therapist. I tried couples' counseling. I sought advice about alcoholism, addiction, codependence, everything. Hope wasn't going to cut it.
I didn't get my dream spouse back, b/c he was never there. I had been in a relationship with my hopes for who he'd be in the future! Waiting for the "real" him to show up--but he already had.
I have a lot of optimism (most of the time), that if I act in a healthy positive way, it will have positive ripple effects in my life and in the lives of others. Things don't always work out well, but with that attitude, I can always learn from the disasters!
I guess it's b/c hope is just me wanting an outcome. Optimism is more about focussing on the now, and letting the future take care of itself.
When I realized that, I made different decisions. Realistically, alcoholics and addicts have a strong likelihood of relapse. Abusive behavior doesn't always end when people stop drinking.
My fantasy, my hope, was that my ex would stop drinking. Then, the kind moments would be all the time. I was basing my life on a hope that someone else would beat the odds.
When I let go of that hope, things got better. I looked at ways to support his recovery and mine, and set boundaries. I went to al anon and a therapist. I tried couples' counseling. I sought advice about alcoholism, addiction, codependence, everything. Hope wasn't going to cut it.
I didn't get my dream spouse back, b/c he was never there. I had been in a relationship with my hopes for who he'd be in the future! Waiting for the "real" him to show up--but he already had.
I have a lot of optimism (most of the time), that if I act in a healthy positive way, it will have positive ripple effects in my life and in the lives of others. Things don't always work out well, but with that attitude, I can always learn from the disasters!
I guess it's b/c hope is just me wanting an outcome. Optimism is more about focussing on the now, and letting the future take care of itself.
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 79
As others have pointed out, I think hope is a positive thing - a necessary tool to get through life. It's false hope that leaves us blinded and bound. One of the things I'm working through internally right now is not only my false hopes that AH will quit drinking suddenly, but also my false hopes that he'll somehow miraculously morph into the wonderful man I 'hope' he's capable of being. It is what it is and he is who he is. Hope can't change that. I do have a newfound hope for a brighter future though, for me and my kids, now that I've started working through my codependency issues and am on the right path toward breaking free. That's a hope I can't do without!
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Hi all.. well here is the old Blue Star Mom.. Hope Prayers and Faith Love Family and Honor.. as a Female back in the 195's we were told this over and over again. I watched people drink themselves under the table fight until the sun came up.. stood with my Pop when he cared for the body one last time before they were laid in the casket.. and then he drank heavely... Hope I grew up hoping that my life would be better . married my only boyfriend we met in College he had 3 degrees offer from a huge chemical company in new york back in 1970.. he could have done anything. found a job shoveling cornmeal out of hopper cars in Milwaukee WI on 3rd shift..
when he was home he slept or rode his pedal bike... had to keep the 3 kids quite during the day because Daddy was sleeping.. tried to live outside most of the time with 3 kids that went from 10months to 4 years old.. can I camp you bet your life.. untill 3pm every day.. come home start dinner hope that they would not wake him up to earlier as Sex was the next thing on my list.. and then bath the kids dinner for them .. keep still Daddy is still sleeping he would get up at 8pm and sex dinner for him pack his stuff for the ****.. and at 11:00pm he was out of the house.. I was so wound up that I needed to drink to slow down . paint iron clean start food for the day.. and at 3am drop in bed.. kids up at 7am.. do it again... Hope.. Kids Hope was all I had that when the kids went to school I could do something different found a job with Burger King from 10 in the morning untill 1pm every week day.. 20 hours at 3.35 per hour.. not much but mine.. Hope that with that time he would sleep the kids in school and I was smart about starting dinner lunch and pack his shift stuff the night before.. and then my Son Ivan got sick.. we almost lost him.. Hope .. kids my Baby my reason that I go to grow up.. we almost lost him a couple of times in that year.. and then when my Hope of a better year was there. found that my Husband was sleeping around at work .. and he started to hit me and harm the other two... Hope there was none .. went to a lawyer ... it took 3 years for our divorce. my Ivan went from 11 to 14 Barry went from 9 to 12 and Melanie went from 8 to 11.. Daddy's little girl had it the hardest why Mom Why.. Hope was all I could give her. and then Our House Burned..... we lost everything.. at least we had insurance on the house and extra money for replacement of beds and such. and he tried to take that Hope as well... my 3 learned that 1. You never give up ever no mater what... 2. Hope is a dream and sometimes its just a dream that you have to hang on to so you don't loose your mind 3. with all of us under the same roof Hope will hold all of us together.. and then there is unconditional Love Mom never loses that ever.. Brothers Stand with Sister and Love for each other out weighs even Hope.. sorry all but I have Hope that Tomorrow will be just a tiny bit different then today.. why because at 64 years old my Hope is that I can stay in my sons home keep this job for 10.00 per hour and in 10 years my life will be a tiny bit better.. with or with out my 2nd hubby but with my children always. a Mom... a silly old lady and you know what writing this I did not have any tears... yep..
when he was home he slept or rode his pedal bike... had to keep the 3 kids quite during the day because Daddy was sleeping.. tried to live outside most of the time with 3 kids that went from 10months to 4 years old.. can I camp you bet your life.. untill 3pm every day.. come home start dinner hope that they would not wake him up to earlier as Sex was the next thing on my list.. and then bath the kids dinner for them .. keep still Daddy is still sleeping he would get up at 8pm and sex dinner for him pack his stuff for the ****.. and at 11:00pm he was out of the house.. I was so wound up that I needed to drink to slow down . paint iron clean start food for the day.. and at 3am drop in bed.. kids up at 7am.. do it again... Hope.. Kids Hope was all I had that when the kids went to school I could do something different found a job with Burger King from 10 in the morning untill 1pm every week day.. 20 hours at 3.35 per hour.. not much but mine.. Hope that with that time he would sleep the kids in school and I was smart about starting dinner lunch and pack his shift stuff the night before.. and then my Son Ivan got sick.. we almost lost him.. Hope .. kids my Baby my reason that I go to grow up.. we almost lost him a couple of times in that year.. and then when my Hope of a better year was there. found that my Husband was sleeping around at work .. and he started to hit me and harm the other two... Hope there was none .. went to a lawyer ... it took 3 years for our divorce. my Ivan went from 11 to 14 Barry went from 9 to 12 and Melanie went from 8 to 11.. Daddy's little girl had it the hardest why Mom Why.. Hope was all I could give her. and then Our House Burned..... we lost everything.. at least we had insurance on the house and extra money for replacement of beds and such. and he tried to take that Hope as well... my 3 learned that 1. You never give up ever no mater what... 2. Hope is a dream and sometimes its just a dream that you have to hang on to so you don't loose your mind 3. with all of us under the same roof Hope will hold all of us together.. and then there is unconditional Love Mom never loses that ever.. Brothers Stand with Sister and Love for each other out weighs even Hope.. sorry all but I have Hope that Tomorrow will be just a tiny bit different then today.. why because at 64 years old my Hope is that I can stay in my sons home keep this job for 10.00 per hour and in 10 years my life will be a tiny bit better.. with or with out my 2nd hubby but with my children always. a Mom... a silly old lady and you know what writing this I did not have any tears... yep..
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IMO, we need hope. It's part of what makes us human, we're the only creatures on the planet who do this. Yes, it should be peppered with a healthy dose of facts and reality as one can be hopeful to a fault.
Miracles happen, people accomplish the unthinkable, someone is going to be the first to do something that's never been done before, and someone hoped that it would happen.
Alcoholics do recover, and families do heal. It's not wrong or bad to hope for these things as long as you keep perspective and know that many things we hope for are not likely to happen, and we should all have a "plan B" just in case. I heard in an alanon meeting recently of an alcoholic whose wife divorced him because of his drinking. He later got sober, they remarried and now have a family. He's been sober for nearly 15 years. There's no guarantee that he'll remain sober the rest of life, but one can hope.
Miracles happen, people accomplish the unthinkable, someone is going to be the first to do something that's never been done before, and someone hoped that it would happen.
Alcoholics do recover, and families do heal. It's not wrong or bad to hope for these things as long as you keep perspective and know that many things we hope for are not likely to happen, and we should all have a "plan B" just in case. I heard in an alanon meeting recently of an alcoholic whose wife divorced him because of his drinking. He later got sober, they remarried and now have a family. He's been sober for nearly 15 years. There's no guarantee that he'll remain sober the rest of life, but one can hope.
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