He isn't doing it to you...
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Shoreline area, CT
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He isn't doing it to you...
he's just doing it.
I read this in one of the stickies above and it really resonated with me. If I am grasping the concept, the idea is that we can separate from our loved ones' substance abuse when we realize that it isn't "about us," it's "about them" and their illness/choices/whatever you want to call it. There was a lot of advice about not taking things personally, to realize and accept that our loved ones don't use because they want to hurt us or make us ashamed or depressed, they use for reasons that most often have nothing to do with us. It's to help with the "detach" part of "detach with love" I think.
What I need help with, though, is what to do about the part of it that does appear to be "about us."
I am looking, right now, at a huge, mostly empty, bottle of single-malt scotch that I found under my bed yesterday. Now you could certainly conclude from this that I don't clean under my bed nearly often enough, but also - my son is the liver transplant patient who is absolutely, 110% forbidden, to consume alcohol in any quantity whatsoever. Yes, I've found bottles all over my house. Yes, in the laundry hamper and unused suitcases and my camping equipment and 25 other places. But this one feels so personal! This is the bed in which my husband and I have agonized for years about what to do about our son, where I've spent so many nights tossing and turning with worry and tears, waking up with a start in the middle of the night thinking, what on earth will the future hold.
I mean, if I read this in a novel, I'd think "how hokey."
We had a giant blowup with our AS over the weekend about the fact that he had stolen his brother's social security card and opened an internet bank account in his brother's name (he can no longer open an account in his own name, and we have, at least for now, been able to successfully bar him from taking our money). He has identity-thefted and stolen from us times without count. That stuff does seem directed at us.
I can even get that the lying about whether he's using or whatever else he's doing, isn't about me. I can understand that the patent dishonesty and craftiness and utter disregard for the truth IS more about his illness, than it is aimed at us in particular. (He also stole from and lied to previous girlfriends and other relatives, so I know for sure it isn't just us.)
How do you detach, how do you let go of the anger, how do you empathize, with someone who IS hurting you directly? And, how do you separate that out from the behavior that isn't about you, like the addiction?
Jane
I read this in one of the stickies above and it really resonated with me. If I am grasping the concept, the idea is that we can separate from our loved ones' substance abuse when we realize that it isn't "about us," it's "about them" and their illness/choices/whatever you want to call it. There was a lot of advice about not taking things personally, to realize and accept that our loved ones don't use because they want to hurt us or make us ashamed or depressed, they use for reasons that most often have nothing to do with us. It's to help with the "detach" part of "detach with love" I think.
What I need help with, though, is what to do about the part of it that does appear to be "about us."
I am looking, right now, at a huge, mostly empty, bottle of single-malt scotch that I found under my bed yesterday. Now you could certainly conclude from this that I don't clean under my bed nearly often enough, but also - my son is the liver transplant patient who is absolutely, 110% forbidden, to consume alcohol in any quantity whatsoever. Yes, I've found bottles all over my house. Yes, in the laundry hamper and unused suitcases and my camping equipment and 25 other places. But this one feels so personal! This is the bed in which my husband and I have agonized for years about what to do about our son, where I've spent so many nights tossing and turning with worry and tears, waking up with a start in the middle of the night thinking, what on earth will the future hold.
I mean, if I read this in a novel, I'd think "how hokey."
We had a giant blowup with our AS over the weekend about the fact that he had stolen his brother's social security card and opened an internet bank account in his brother's name (he can no longer open an account in his own name, and we have, at least for now, been able to successfully bar him from taking our money). He has identity-thefted and stolen from us times without count. That stuff does seem directed at us.
I can even get that the lying about whether he's using or whatever else he's doing, isn't about me. I can understand that the patent dishonesty and craftiness and utter disregard for the truth IS more about his illness, than it is aimed at us in particular. (He also stole from and lied to previous girlfriends and other relatives, so I know for sure it isn't just us.)
How do you detach, how do you let go of the anger, how do you empathize, with someone who IS hurting you directly? And, how do you separate that out from the behavior that isn't about you, like the addiction?
Jane
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: long island ny
Posts: 64
this is a good question for me as well. i struggle with this daily and still don't have answers. i keep reading the stickies and books- one in particular is called broken by william cope moyers(son of bill moyers) it is worth a read. i had to make choices about my son, very touch choices that keep me up at night. how do i move through all of these thoughts and get through the day. sometimes i can't wait for the day to end. as i sit here at work i am reading these posts from people who have gone through what we are going through and i do find strength in what they post. i also attend naranon meetings which i find helpful. it has changes our lives- all of us who are here, but out of all the lessons i hope to learn it is one of forgiveness, it consumes and devours our loved ones. people keep saying in the meetings that their loved ones addiction has taught them many things about themselves, i struggle everyday waiting for these insights. stay strong.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,497
Jane
I wish I could help you , with answers to these questions. But I am searching myself.
I do want to say that I am here for you, as you have been for me, in my struggles.
I wish I could send you peace of mind. I will pray for that though, for you and for your son to get his head straight somehow, when I pray for that for my son too.
I only know that when I am at my wits end, detaching is the only help. Detaching and knowing that I am not alone... and many walk the path I am on- we walk together, and support and share what helps us, and sometimes that helps the anxiety that I can get caught up in.
baby steps, , are there any you can take today?
hugs
I wish I could help you , with answers to these questions. But I am searching myself.
I do want to say that I am here for you, as you have been for me, in my struggles.
I wish I could send you peace of mind. I will pray for that though, for you and for your son to get his head straight somehow, when I pray for that for my son too.
I only know that when I am at my wits end, detaching is the only help. Detaching and knowing that I am not alone... and many walk the path I am on- we walk together, and support and share what helps us, and sometimes that helps the anxiety that I can get caught up in.
baby steps, , are there any you can take today?
hugs
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I am sorry you are going through this, how awful. I remember the constant finding of bottles around my house when my X still lived there, it was awful. The constant trying to figure out how old it was, knowing it just got there but them lying, lying, lying. Awful.
It is a crime to open a bank account in someone else's name. It's identity theft and against the law. I hope you protect your other son who had his stolen. He needs you right now too.
Here is the thing I caution people about with saying, It's the Illness. Yes, it is an illness. However, people still know right from wrong. There are consequences in life. If an addict never experiences those consequences they are robbed from ever recovering. The act of the addiction has to become more painful than the reward they get from it.
So while it is not directed at you, certainly, there should still be consequences.
Tight Hugs....
It is a crime to open a bank account in someone else's name. It's identity theft and against the law. I hope you protect your other son who had his stolen. He needs you right now too.
Here is the thing I caution people about with saying, It's the Illness. Yes, it is an illness. However, people still know right from wrong. There are consequences in life. If an addict never experiences those consequences they are robbed from ever recovering. The act of the addiction has to become more painful than the reward they get from it.
So while it is not directed at you, certainly, there should still be consequences.
Tight Hugs....
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Where the mighty arms of Atlas hold the heavens from the Earth
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How do you detach, how do you let go of the anger, how do you empathize, with someone who IS hurting you directly?
Anger, is managed, isn't a bad thing. Anger only becomes an issue when you allow it to hijack your decision making process.
But I think the best way to not personalize what's going on is reminding yourself that your AS would do what he's doing to anyone. It's just the nature of his condition. When my AXGF and I broke up, the way that she behaved was dreadful. Delightfully, pointedly sadistic is probably the best way to describe her behavior. But while she was doing what she was doing, I had an awareness that wasn't about me. She is an addict and a Borderline, and this is what someone like her does. The end of the relationship didn't really hurt me, and that was because of my awareness of what she was. There was no mystery. She's as sick as it gets.
Obviously, with your AS, it's a far more complicated issue. He's a part of you. But when you read, for example, Ann's stories about her son, you recognize there's a time when you have to do what is necessary to protect yourself. But more importantly, you have to give yourself permission to protect yourself. Your AS, while he's in his current state, will continue to do what he does. Unabated, and without conscience. So maybe the best way for you to detach is the way that provides you the most protection.
My two cents.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Burgh
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Jane,
I get it...boy do I get it.
One of the thigs I found at SR was the "permission" ( as Zoso mentioned) to protect myself from my own son. How odd it was, needing protection from someone who I had always vowed to protect.
After having more than 10 years into this, I:
I get it...boy do I get it.
One of the thigs I found at SR was the "permission" ( as Zoso mentioned) to protect myself from my own son. How odd it was, needing protection from someone who I had always vowed to protect.
After having more than 10 years into this, I:
- Am sometimes angry but am no longer hurt
- Am sometimes disppointed, but try to no longer have expectations
- Often dislike him but will always love him.
- Am willing to forgive but will not ( for my own protection) forget.
- I understand that he may not be doing things "to me", but instead he is doing things "for him" ( there is a difference)
- I am also important...and that my choice to protect myself and live my life is not something I am doing "to him" but something I am doing "for me".
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: TX
Posts: 731
I do understand as a mother of (2) substance abusers!
Living with one is enough to make you question your sanity at times. I know.
Detaching, for me, has been about maintaining my boundaries. It affects me but really it's the nature of the addict. They know and don't care. The drug(s) are running their life.
I had two boundaries, when my kids were living with me. Don't use drugs in the house or let me see you high. Pick up after yourself.
Those were crossed. They were both kicked out multiple times (revolving door). I finally had it. I said "you aren't coming home, no matter what!" They haven't lived with me for a year (my son) and 6 months (my daughter). Both have been homeless and desperate. Both have begged and manipulated. I have let them come home for a day/night...only to find drugs on the nightstand (after one night-really?)
It was never about me. It was about the drug.
Living with one is enough to make you question your sanity at times. I know.
Detaching, for me, has been about maintaining my boundaries. It affects me but really it's the nature of the addict. They know and don't care. The drug(s) are running their life.
I had two boundaries, when my kids were living with me. Don't use drugs in the house or let me see you high. Pick up after yourself.
Those were crossed. They were both kicked out multiple times (revolving door). I finally had it. I said "you aren't coming home, no matter what!" They haven't lived with me for a year (my son) and 6 months (my daughter). Both have been homeless and desperate. Both have begged and manipulated. I have let them come home for a day/night...only to find drugs on the nightstand (after one night-really?)
It was never about me. It was about the drug.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Shoreline area, CT
Posts: 68
I cannot tell you how much I have valued the words you all took time to write. Your comments (all of them) represent such hard-won wisdom. I have read and re-read everything multiple times and there is so much I want to take to heart.
I LOVE the statement about "giving myself permission" to protect the rest of us from our AS. As you all know, the fact that he's been so physically ill has, layered on top of all his other issues, made us hold back time after time from compelling him to deal with his consequences, and has caused us to permit ourselves to be vulnerable to his behavior. But now, even my husband has had enough (and that really really took some doing on my AS' part).
We have not been in contact with him since last Saturday, when he was in the hospital (his home away from home, except with better drugs) and my husband confronted him about the bank account he opened in my other son's name. The lease for his sublet is up next week and we've already told him not to expect to come back here. Right now we don't know what's going on with him but with him, no news is not necessarily good news.
Thank you all again so so much for being here for me.
Jane
I LOVE the statement about "giving myself permission" to protect the rest of us from our AS. As you all know, the fact that he's been so physically ill has, layered on top of all his other issues, made us hold back time after time from compelling him to deal with his consequences, and has caused us to permit ourselves to be vulnerable to his behavior. But now, even my husband has had enough (and that really really took some doing on my AS' part).
We have not been in contact with him since last Saturday, when he was in the hospital (his home away from home, except with better drugs) and my husband confronted him about the bank account he opened in my other son's name. The lease for his sublet is up next week and we've already told him not to expect to come back here. Right now we don't know what's going on with him but with him, no news is not necessarily good news.
Thank you all again so so much for being here for me.
Jane
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,430
Jane;
I'm glad your husband is finally getting on board.
Very sorry to hear what happened to your other son, but maybe that is the final straw for your husband that got him to act.
What is the plan for keeping son out?
What if he shows up, or has a key and sneaks in when you are gone, or calls to manipulate?
Have you and your husband agreed on what will happen?
I'm glad your husband is finally getting on board.
Very sorry to hear what happened to your other son, but maybe that is the final straw for your husband that got him to act.
What is the plan for keeping son out?
What if he shows up, or has a key and sneaks in when you are gone, or calls to manipulate?
Have you and your husband agreed on what will happen?
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Shoreline area, CT
Posts: 68
Hello Hawkeye and thank you so much for keeping me accountable... I need that.
My husband and I talked about this very subject on the way to the train station this morning. We haven't heard from AS since Saturday, and that's a very long time for him to go without asking us for money. He pretty much constantly needs money to pay for doctor visit co-pays, procedure co-pays and medications (we have great health insurance but as you know, the meter is still always running). If he contacts my husband today to ask for money, which we expect he will, my husband will ask him about his plans for next week.
He claimed to me last week that he had arranged for a very inexpensive room in a house, in the city where he's been living. We had told him, previous to that, that he could either apply at the Christian sober house (where he already has a contact) or at last resort we'd take him to the welfare motel. Whether he actually believes we won't take him back is, of course, anybody's guess.
If he were to show up back here next week, I think what I'd do is offer to take him to the sober house or the welfare motel, but realistically speaking if he refuses to go there isn't much I can do by myself and I'd have to wait for the weekend when my husband could help. In the past he has threatened to call the police on us and I'd hate for my other son to wind up swept into a confrontation (which has also happened). I know he'd have no compunctions about getting our other son arrested.
My husband does agree with me, though, that he's not coming back here. If you had any idea what an enormous step this is for my husband.... he's from an old Irish Catholic family where the idea of throwing people out is just complete and total anathema. In his family people lived at home until they were 45, and their mothers were happy to have them! He was so much more willing than I ever was to give our AS the benefit of the doubt and to pity and sympathize with him because of his illness, but even he finally got to the point of no return.
I am trying to stay calm until I see what happens. It helps that I have lots of work to do today!
Thank you and God bless!
Jane
My husband and I talked about this very subject on the way to the train station this morning. We haven't heard from AS since Saturday, and that's a very long time for him to go without asking us for money. He pretty much constantly needs money to pay for doctor visit co-pays, procedure co-pays and medications (we have great health insurance but as you know, the meter is still always running). If he contacts my husband today to ask for money, which we expect he will, my husband will ask him about his plans for next week.
He claimed to me last week that he had arranged for a very inexpensive room in a house, in the city where he's been living. We had told him, previous to that, that he could either apply at the Christian sober house (where he already has a contact) or at last resort we'd take him to the welfare motel. Whether he actually believes we won't take him back is, of course, anybody's guess.
If he were to show up back here next week, I think what I'd do is offer to take him to the sober house or the welfare motel, but realistically speaking if he refuses to go there isn't much I can do by myself and I'd have to wait for the weekend when my husband could help. In the past he has threatened to call the police on us and I'd hate for my other son to wind up swept into a confrontation (which has also happened). I know he'd have no compunctions about getting our other son arrested.
My husband does agree with me, though, that he's not coming back here. If you had any idea what an enormous step this is for my husband.... he's from an old Irish Catholic family where the idea of throwing people out is just complete and total anathema. In his family people lived at home until they were 45, and their mothers were happy to have them! He was so much more willing than I ever was to give our AS the benefit of the doubt and to pity and sympathize with him because of his illness, but even he finally got to the point of no return.
I am trying to stay calm until I see what happens. It helps that I have lots of work to do today!
Thank you and God bless!
Jane
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by lovetohikect 
How do you detach, how do you let go of the anger, how do you empathize, with someone who IS hurting you directly? And, how do you separate that out from the behavior that isn't about you, like the addiction?
God bless you as you too search for these answers.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,430
Hi Jane;
I'm sorry if my post came across as prescriptive--I just tend to focus on the practical aspects / logistics of how something will look, as removed from the abstract ideal.
I suppose I was thinking in the back of my mind that your husband may not yet be ready
for the unpleasant confrontations / appeals your son is likely to use to get back into the home or at least to gain financial support.
He seems to really know the weak spots from your earlier posts, so I thought talking out scenarios might be useful so you and your
husband have a unified front.
I'm thinking of you and your family and hoping things go well.
I'm sorry if my post came across as prescriptive--I just tend to focus on the practical aspects / logistics of how something will look, as removed from the abstract ideal.
I suppose I was thinking in the back of my mind that your husband may not yet be ready
for the unpleasant confrontations / appeals your son is likely to use to get back into the home or at least to gain financial support.
He seems to really know the weak spots from your earlier posts, so I thought talking out scenarios might be useful so you and your
husband have a unified front.
I'm thinking of you and your family and hoping things go well.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: long island ny
Posts: 64
lovethicket,
as far as having your son with you , i too struggle with the thought of him being "out there" on his own. i also tossed around ideas of where my son will go after he does his jail time. I read on the posts here that the salvation army takes people in. it kills me every minute to distance myself from his chaos. i do know that the chaoes will continue if i allow him back in. i went to see my son in a very tough prison yesterday which cost me a day off and 8 hours of waiting and 3 strip searches. whe i got to see him finally he began negoiating with me. after hearing that he still doesn't acknowlege that its ok to have a beer cause it isn't heoin i looked at my husband and said that it was time for us to leave. i fear these "children" although they are adults are maniplulative and have learned how to pull at our heartstrings. they also manage to get the drugs they need and walk over anyone they say they love. it is very hard to let them go- all the meetings i have been to i see such strong people who let go of their kids and realized they cannot help them anymore if they don't want help. sometimes there is no ah ha moment for addicts. we as parents tear our insides out struggling with this. i wish you the strength to get through your upcoming issues with your son, it is never easy.
as far as having your son with you , i too struggle with the thought of him being "out there" on his own. i also tossed around ideas of where my son will go after he does his jail time. I read on the posts here that the salvation army takes people in. it kills me every minute to distance myself from his chaos. i do know that the chaoes will continue if i allow him back in. i went to see my son in a very tough prison yesterday which cost me a day off and 8 hours of waiting and 3 strip searches. whe i got to see him finally he began negoiating with me. after hearing that he still doesn't acknowlege that its ok to have a beer cause it isn't heoin i looked at my husband and said that it was time for us to leave. i fear these "children" although they are adults are maniplulative and have learned how to pull at our heartstrings. they also manage to get the drugs they need and walk over anyone they say they love. it is very hard to let them go- all the meetings i have been to i see such strong people who let go of their kids and realized they cannot help them anymore if they don't want help. sometimes there is no ah ha moment for addicts. we as parents tear our insides out struggling with this. i wish you the strength to get through your upcoming issues with your son, it is never easy.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Shoreline area, CT
Posts: 68
@hawkeye - this is the trouble with the internet - I really DID appreciate your post and I'm sorry if my response came off any different way. You have very helpful things to say!
@oceanlady - isn't it unbelievable, they can be at what you or I or anybody else would consider rock-bottom, and there they still are, lying and manipulating and rationalizing and being their same old addict selves. My AS did the same when he was in the psych hospital; now you'd think "anybody" would say to themselves, "maybe I DO have a problem," but not him. It was all a big mistake and everybody else was over-reacting.
@Mama - yeah, can't say I haven't been there. That's the exact feeling I'm talking about! It's like, we love them and care for them, but at the same time, damn we've hurt so badly and so long, it's just incredibly hard to know where to go with that. I know Jesus wouldn't have been angry but I'm not Him!
Thanks to all again. It means more than I can say to know I'm not walking this road alone.
Jane
@oceanlady - isn't it unbelievable, they can be at what you or I or anybody else would consider rock-bottom, and there they still are, lying and manipulating and rationalizing and being their same old addict selves. My AS did the same when he was in the psych hospital; now you'd think "anybody" would say to themselves, "maybe I DO have a problem," but not him. It was all a big mistake and everybody else was over-reacting.
@Mama - yeah, can't say I haven't been there. That's the exact feeling I'm talking about! It's like, we love them and care for them, but at the same time, damn we've hurt so badly and so long, it's just incredibly hard to know where to go with that. I know Jesus wouldn't have been angry but I'm not Him!
Thanks to all again. It means more than I can say to know I'm not walking this road alone.
Jane
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