DocSobrietist

Email from my wife: "Please hire a babysitter if you'd like to attend your Thursday meeting on this day. I'll be at this awards ceremony with XXXX."

(I respond by gritting my teeth. She's not asking, she's demanding. She's basically announcing that I need to take care of the kids. Even though it's been a standing arrangement that she puts the kids to bed on Thursdays while I run my Lifering group).

I respond: "When is it? I can't open the attachment. I have an alternate for my meeting that can stand in. I hate to put it this way, are you asking me if I can arrange to take care of the kids that night? It sounds like you're telling me to. You're aware my Thursday night meeting is a longstanding commitment. Please ask next time and it won't be a problem."

She responds: "It's June 5. Yes, I'm asking for help finding care for the kids so we can both attend our events. Thanks."

I respond: "OK, thanks." then I send her another email, to de-escalate things a bit: "I didn't mean to sound testy. I appreciate that you've been able to take care of them on Thursdays on an ongoing basis so that I can convene a meeting. I have lots of people who can run the meeting in my absence so it's not a bother, for future reference. OK?"

Apparently softening a tad, she responds: "Sorry, my email was terse. I'm trying to do that thing where I ask for help getting my needs meet, rather than, for example, skipping the event so I can watch the kids and then being resentful that I didn't get to go. Still kind of new for me."

I respond, simply relieved to get a more human response from her: "Ohmygoodness! Just ask! :-) Were you expecting me to say no? I look forward to doing things for you. Just ask - no one likes being ordered around. You're fine, I'm happy to help, honestly. My group is in good hands. I have half the Lifering regulars in XXX willing to go to bat for me."

She responds, sounding confused (or self-justifying?): "I really thought you'd say no."

Me, matter-of-factly: "Either way, better to just ask. Whenever you ask, it gives me another opportunity to do nice things for you."

Her, opening up some more: "Thank you. I will try to remember to do that. I do feel like our relationship over the past few years has become more of a power struggle, and less of a source of mutual support. We constantly negotiate to get our needs met, like a couple of litigators trying to get the bigger piece of the pie. I feel like I rarely win in these negotiations, and when I do, I have to steel myself for the backlash.I know you don't want our relationship to be like that, and I will try to give you more opportunities to demonstrate your care for me. Thanks again."

Me, really liking where the conversation is going, at least in part: "Sure. Just remember to ask with the attitude that I do want to do nice things for you (which is true). If you can do that, then I can be in the position to do something nice, which feels good for both of us. If your first move is to demand, then the possibility of me doing something nice goes away. It becomes about my compliance, which almost guarantees a power struggle dynamic commences, and I'm put in the position of either feeling like I've been steamrolled, or pushing back and having you feeling the same. Lets not focus on the past. I think your perspective at the therapy session about not "dumping" being desirable is insightful. I think I've become really soured on spending any more time talking about how bad things may have been at this time or another in our relationship - It doesn't make either of us feel good and I tend to feel these days it doesn't move things forward at all. So I'm going to stop doing it - definitely I invite you to join me."

I thought that email exchange went rather well! I felt like I got an important message across. The message was I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT ANYMORE.

-DrS

Mango blast

Nice that you're both making some progress.

When she says "Thanks again." "You're welcome." would suffice.

Stung

You seem really controlling. Why are you telling her how to behave or communicate?

And I'm not saying that from a place of judgement. I'm controlling too. This is the kettle calling the pot black. Hi Pot.

LoveMeNow

You both did great but I kind of felt like your last response was just beating it to death. Like you had the need to be right and it was somewhat controlling.

Ps I hate to be told not to mention past behaviors. In many ways, I had my own conditioning to break free from that stemmed from our past. It helped when I could discuss them openly and honestly.

Are you sorry you asked? Oh wait, you didn't, lol.

DocSobrietist

Ugh. Actually, the exchange didn't go so well. Up late drafting an apology to her. Two steps forward, three steps backward.

I'm an idiot.

-DrS

Hopeworks

That is the good and bad about putting things in writing... we get to go back and look at it again through a "new pair of glasses"...

Realizing we are idiots is the first step to removing the dunce cap and when in early stages of healing a relationship the knee jerk reaction and responses we make emotionally are usually not ones we think are so shiny in later recovery.

I have literally hundreds of letters I have written that I have not sent because I am smart enough to write emotional and venting (and sometimes highly controlling letters) to others and save them and read them later...many times. Usually I end up not sending them at all and either redrafting or making a phone call.

Writing to others in a troubled relationship makes it hard to communicate in the first place...everyone has their hackles up and expects the worst and misreads our intent as they can't see our expression and body language. On the other hand sometimes face to face ends up worse! The catch 22 of communication and rebuilding broken relationships...

It's not easy but commend you for sending an apology letter... remember recovery is what its all about...changing our perspectives and how we respond to others with more insight, compassion and understanding of relationship dynamics.

You were mostly on the tracks but got one wheel off a bit but made a fabulous recovery and it sounds like she is really trying to figure out how to effectively communicate too!

One more thing I find helpful is the "I" format of...when I read your email it made me feel __________________. This way we are taking any accusations out of the picture and just talking about how we react and our own emotional responses. It opens communication about ...well...communication. And effective communicating is a skill and a gift.... and something we can all concentrate on doing a better job in all phases of life.

RevivingOphelia

My thoughts about your relationship:

You seem a bit emotionally overwhelming -- maybe to her as well. You could potentially, perhaps unknowingly, push your wife away. Your urgent need to analyse, process, and discuss every interaction to your satisfaction is a sign of neediness as well as control--both are traits that I don't think will shift your wife to back to the place where you are longing for her to be. Your last statement about inviting her to join you in not talking about the "bad" actually is controlling and verging on condescension.

My advice: Give her space. Try to avoid those texts and message where you feel you must explain every bit of your intention and meaning. Keep things simple and light for now. Give her the room to see how she really feels about your relationship. Try not to analyze every interaction. If you do, keep it to yourself or talk to a therapist or friend about it.

I hope you take this in the spirit I intend. I speak as a woman who has a bit of experience in relationships. Men who are emotionally needy (not emotionally open, there is a difference) are often trying to control the direction of the relationship leading to the dissolution of feelings on behalf of the woman--resentment builds up, the urge to flee becomes greater on her part. Try and build your confidence in ways that don't include her for now. She will begin to notice that the dynamics are shifting once you give her room to breathe and decide what direction she wishes to take between the two of you.

jaynie04

My husband and I have a joke. If I make a mistake and apologize he can sometimes get up on his high horse and use it as an opportunity to drone on and on about my transgression.

One day I looked at him and said.."oh, thank you so very much for making this into a teaching moment".

We both started laughing. So now, if he gets up on a soapbox I just say "teaching moment"…..

I have found that humor is a good way to reconnect. Making a point and then leaving it is usually the best way to get it across. I would say one of my favorite things about my husband is that he gives me space and the luxury to be myself. I don't think our relationship would be nearly as good if we had not endured struggles along the way.

Not every interaction needs to be a teaching moment. It is ok not to take the temperature of the relationship every second and analyze each bit. I need space and I would feel smothered if my actions and words were dissected, I would run for the hills.

CodeJob

When my RAH gets rolling I think about tasers.

Of course when I want to talk he is 92% of the time unwilling. I'll have to ask him what he thinks when I get spinning along on one of my Codie tracks. If I had to guess, probably a pint of something.

If your W joined SR, how would she react to seeing these emails here?

unsureoffuture

It sounds like you defused a potentially escalating argument. Good job. You spoke honestly and encouraged each other towork together. I think as you both get more comfortable with the separation, it will be easier to communicate and likely more phone conversations. There is still alot of tension between you as you work this out. I think you did a great job.

HealingWillCome

The message I read in all of this was, "I don't like to be told what to do, but as long as you see/do things my way, everything will be okay." Sort of ironic, right?

I would also suggest not telling your wife what you both will "feel" as long as she does things the way you suggest...or ever. Her feelings are hers. Yours are yours. You don't get to decide hers.

keepingthefaith is right. When your wife says, "Thanks, again", she is attempting to end the conversation. A simple "You're welcome" is sufficient.

Take Hopeworks advice and maybe sit on your apology for a while. Reread it a few times before you send anything. Hang in there and be patient.

DocSobrietist

Her email back to me after the last one was terrible. I won't even post it. I'm apparently accusing her of being crazy, hypocritical, I'm blaming her, etc. - it's awful. Yes, I can see how i'm emotionally overwhelming and yes, my endless analysis is a way of trying to control future outcomes and in the end, control her. I felt like she was controlling *me* at the outset, definitely. No one likes being ordered around. The doubly frustrating part is how I actually am happy to help with things like she had so much trouble asking me in the beginning.

Feeling probably slightly resentful and a little angry, but also seeing how she actually left herself open to some insights about the exchange, I proceed to beat her over the head with analysis that probably is kind of mean in the end. What the hell. Why can't I stop?

-DrS

cleaninLI

Doc I thought her initial email was demanding and I can see why you felt that way. I think you did a good job of not reacting in a negative or defensive way....but instead explained how you felt and encouraged her to ask instead of demand in a way that did not make her feel defensive.....in fact she opened up further and explained how she was trying to ask in order to get her needs met....be a little more assertive. She's learning something new so I think you made it clear that you appreciated her attempt.

It all went well until the very end. Your last Email should have been a closing sort of email. Like one poster said you're welcome sort of thing. End of discussion. I think that would have been a very positive exchange. Success yay! Unfortunately, you kept going with what you had already said and she had agreed and understood.

Oh well, this is new for you both....so it takes some missteps to get it right. I think you should feel pleased that you didn't react negatively at the get go....isn't that a success in itself?

Mango blast

The good news is, with work you'll be able to change.
You might search for books on controlling, losing control and/or letting go of control.
Also mindfulness books for living in the moment.

It all takes practice and relearning these things every single day until they become habit. It can be done. My husband has started doing a few things again that I perceive to be controlling and I'm withdrawing instead of dealing well with it. I'm extra sensitive because of problems with this in the past with both of us.

I can't and won't try to change him, so I'm re-reading some of these books and continue to work on myself. As I change, everything changes.

DocSobrietist

Thank you, CleaninLI, others-

Now struggling with feeling hopeless, helpless, and wallowing in feelings of regret.

Need to borrow some strength from the group. Temptation is for me to continue to draw out this email exchange (my wife may or may not respond to my apology). I shouldn't do that - I have another couples session on Monday. We can dissect this whole dumb thing then.

(superglues Dunce cap to head)

-DrS

cleaninLI

You both tried to do something you're not accustomed to doing, I think you made progress....perhaps you could explain how this is new to you too and that your intention was to have a positive agreeable exchange. Tell her you're are trying to do better and to disregard anything that seemed condescending. Tell her you are happy she opened up to you about what she's learning that it helps to understand her more and that you love her.
Baby steps doc!

Mango blast

Go outside, take off your shoes and walk around on the dirt or grass for a while. The physical connection to nature is balancing. Breath deeply and stretch. Waking up our bodies can be a help in getting out of our minds. Sit down on the ground and read a new book or some free samples. Another type to look for are those about gratitude. The more I become grateful for what I have, the less I tend to want to control everything.

No need to dissect the whole thing again on Monday. Let. It. Go. Maybe a quick email saying this is new to you too, that you love her and then state a positive thing you're doing for yourself today, such as reading a book on letting go of control.

Free: Heart of Abundance

Losing Control, Finding Serenity: How the Need to Control Hurts Us and How to Let It Go
Present Perfect: A Mindfulness Approach to Letting Go of Perfectionism and the Need for Control I haven't read this one yet.

Think Big: Unleashing Your Potential for Excellence Not related, but tends to get me thinking on a much better path than self recriminating and codie behavior.

cleaninLI

I agree with keepingthefaith, relax and let it go. Take what you need from this as a learning experience and let the rest go. I really think progress was made here......try to think in that way. Think about what this type of exchange would have looked like a week ago. Don't you think you've made some progress?

hopeful4

You are realizing it, now it is just changing it. Your marriage did not get this way overnight and it won't heal overnight. Give yourself a break and encourage her to do the same. Stop analyzing everything to death! Breathe Doc.....

FireSprite

Ok, I may be way off base or in the vast minority here, but here's what I *see* & *hear* from my 3rd-party perspective.... not meant as judgement, simply observation.

You want to Win. You are A-ok as long as you get the last word & she agrees with you. (Or, you agree with her but talk it around circles enough that it feels like it was your idea or fits in with one of your ideas or started as your idea, so that you retain a feeling of control about accepting it...) If we spend enough time dissecting stuff we can find ways to support our POV no matter what, and you seem to be a master of this.

I think your wife has been very direct & honest & CLEAR when she communicates with you & then you respond with these long, involved, decriptive, flowery, on & off-topic path-winding thoughts instead of just listening. I feel like you are probably forming your responses (defenses) in your head before she is done speaking (or you are done reading, as it relates to email correspondence).

Not taking sides but I absolutely know how she feels when she says,

This is HARD for a recovering Codie. When I started learning how to ask for help I also had to work on my tone, delivery & word selection. It was so foreign of a concept that I felt like I was choking on acid & like I would be swallowed by a panic attack the first few times I initiated asking for help, especially help from RAH. After so many years of him showing me he would say no, him prioritizing 'his' things over 'mine', I got tired of opening myself up for rejection. So yeah, when I finally asked I had a defensive tone & felt like:

And since I couldn't stop that fight-or-flight reaction from happening, I had this, "Oh. Hmmmm...." Not-sure-what-to-do-with-myself-now feeling because I was all geared up to defend myself & my needs & now it wasn't necessary.

And he acted just as surprised as you that I would feel that way & even got a little angry & hurt about it at first. How could I *not* expect him to want to help me? His *intentions* were to always put his family first. But for years his *actions* showed me differently & that is what I based my actions/reactions on.... not what he was capable of, but what he was actually doing. How do we break old cycles/old patterns? Start new ones - but that takes time & effort. You actually have to DO it the "new" way, (her: asking for help without tone/you: not over-analyzing & preaching it to death)... over & over & over & weeks & weeks & months & then eventually it's your New Normal.

Is it possible that you are immersing yourself in your recovery in an addictive way? Sometimes we dive in so fully that we forget to come up for air, ya know? There's a great benefit at times for some people to kind of ease up on constantly bombarding yourself with the learning to step back & put more time into doing/putting that knowledge to use.

Again, JMHO - not meant as judgement, I think you're doing great in your sobriety. This is all just meant as food for thought....