thotful

Triple Crown - AA, Al-Anon, and ACOA;
I'm currently trying to fight enmeshment that I developed as a coping mechanism as a child. One of my biggest struggles is even noticing that it's what I'm doing. Letting people have their own opinions, feelings, and allowing myself to feel differently is a struggle for me (enmeshment, right?). I either try to pull myself towards their opinion or feelings (people pleasing), or I try to pull them towards my opinion or feeling (aggression - covert or overt). When my wife is feeling angry and complaining about something, I get this urge to change her mind or agree with her - I literally don't know how to just let her be angry about something and let the the two of us be separate people.

My family members still talk in enmeshment terms and don't realize it. "You don't want to see the family" The "family" thinks this, and the "family" thinks that. Apparently, they have trouble having separate thoughts and feelings.

Thoughts on getting over enmeshment? I suppose just working my 12-step program can help (it's been helping A LOT so far).

lillamy

I think fighting enmeshment is more difficult when you're around people who embrace enmeshment. Your family seems to, my family of origin does as well. It's like they have this foundational belief that all sane people have to agree and also that all sane people have to agree with us.

I often find myself reacting with people-pleasing or irritation in situations where the conversation is really about something other than what it appears to be about. For example, when we're moving offices and John gets very upset about having to move to another office, it's not about the office, it's about John feeling like he's being geographically demoted because his new office is further away from the CEO's. That kind of thing.

Part of it is to understand what's deliberately not said. And I find that's hard to pinpoint when I am myself emotionally invested in a situation. A lot of time I don't have the luxury/time to step back and ask myself "why does it bother me to the point of irritation that my best friend is a big supporter of this politician that I loathe?"

And I think for me it all comes back to that thing you mention -- "the family thinks that...". Some primordial fear of being shunned, banished, sent out of the camp into the desert?

I don't have much help but I thank you for making me think about this again.

JustAGirl1971

I struggle with this, too, thotful. One thing that helped me was making a list of what is/is not my responsibility. Other people's thoughts, feelings, and perceptions are not my responsibility, even if those thoughts, feelings, and perceptions are about me. When I feel myself getting sucked in, I just walk away. Take a break, do something for myself. I also frequently remind myself that it's not all about me. Literally, I will just say that in my head: It's not all about me. Or: It's not even about me. Again, if it's a difference of opinion and I'm feeling the urge to argue mine, I'll just remind myself: He may be right. I may be right. We may both be right, or we may both be wrong. We don't have to agree. I know that probably sounds really basic and dumb, but it helps me.

Last thing, I really just think awareness is key. When we're aware it's an issue, first we'll realize what we've done after we've done it. After awhile, we'll start recognizing it while we're doing it. And, finally, sometimes, we may even recognize before we do it. I can't tell you how many conversations I've stopped mid-sentence and changed what I was saying since I started Al-Anon!

shil2587

I do this too. I have found a few things to be helpful.

Firstly I just sort of decided one day after months of reading here, that I matter. As such, what I think and how I feel is important. So I have started to try to stop and really think about what I am feeling during the day and to give myself permission to feel that. I don't always need to act on it but it has helped me to center myself in my head better. Then I find myself better able to see what other people are thinking and feeling as their issue, not mine, because I already know how I feel in that moment.

The second thing I find helps is imagining a bubble around me. This doesn't always work when I am very stressed but I am getting much better at it. People and ideas simply bounce off my bubble and back to them, where those issues belong. Inside my bubble I am absolutely perfect and simply observing the world.

Finally, and this really has been the thing that has changed me the most, this website. All the wonderful people here. Reading their stories has really, really helped me turn my life around. When it finally clicked that not only could I not fix or control an alcoholic, it suddenly became blinding obvious that I also had no responsibility to other people to adopt their thinking because they couldn't fix or control me either! If I can only work on me then I had better get to know me , because nobody else can if I don't know myself.

That's just what works for me.

shil2587

Wow that sounds very garbled. I hope I was somewhat understandable. Typing on my phone means I don't see what I have written as a whole.

JustAGirl1971

I love the bubble idea, shil! I use visualization for other things (like stopping a thought by filing it in a file cabinet.) I will have to try the bubble thing next

One more thing that helps me, thotful, is to remind myself that I want others to accept me just as I am, even if my opinion differs from theirs; therefore, I should accept others just as they are, even if their opinion sucks, I mean differs from mine

Lovenjoy

Wow, another triple crowner! Thanks for the post Thotful. I just came to the realization I own those crowns too. Just got my Al-Anon one recently so the self work has begun with enmeshment concerns and changes.

Don't have a lot to share, yet, but I am making progress. The biggest tool for me so far is acceptance. First and foremost acceptance of self - it's ok how I am and I will only get better now that I am paying attention to my needs. And acceptance of others just as they are. This has been so freeing for me. Others have the right to do things their way and make their own mistakes and me trying to fix them is really very disrespectful IMHO.

So I'm not fixing others anymore (this has been my role since about age 4!) and I'm not critiquing everything and everyone anymore, and I reject my addiction to chaos now….. This new work has helped with the detachment I am working on now which is another tool I am developing to address my enmeshment.

Getting rid of so much internal and external behaviors that have been with me for a long time sent me into a spin that was quite scary. I think, still not sure, that what happened at that point is I had a huge void that I didn't know how to fill. I have gotten help and stopped the spin and managed not to back track out of fear.

And today I focus on learning who I am and what I want and how to take care of me. All of these are pretty much unknowns so there is plenty to do! This self work is bringing more balance into my days. And I am happier! Which is something I don't think I ever believed was ok for me to experience. I now know being happy and peaceful and accepting of joy is kinda my job in life.

And all those people I care about and who care about me? They are happier too! A little perplexed but there is definitely more ease in my relationships and much laughter!

Glad to meet a fellow traveler, keep up the good fight!

lillamy

My kids like to say that -- "you have a right to your opinion. Even though it's WRONG!"

Mellybug

What I have found that always seems to have worked for me is that any time I find myself feeling particularly irritated at something, I realize that it's a "trigger point" for me...and I just shut up and tell myself that this warrants further attention. The fact that something has irritated me means that there's some underlying issue here and I should look into WHY it irritates me.

If I'm in a position where shutting up is not an option - at a work meeting, or during a discussion where my input is expected - I simply say, "I'm finding myself having some interesting thoughts about what was just said that I'd like to explore further before discussing them." Usually people think I'm actually taking what they are saying to heart (which usually isn't it at all...I'm actually pondering my reaction, not what they said. HAHA).

The only time that I find that this absolutely DOES NOT work is when my coworker's voice irritates the CRAP out of me! I know WHY it does...it's not an emotional thing - it's shrill and piercing...she can be complimenting me or telling me I'm the most wonderful human being on the planet and I still would be irritated by her voice! It has the PERFECT PITCH that sets my teeth on edge!

thotful

Can someone help me out here? I'm sitting here thinking about how my estranged brother said that, "you just don't like my opinion", when his "opinion" happens to be that it's in my best interest to divorce my wife.

I get stuck on the difference between a boundary and respecting other people's supposed "opinions". I know that his "opinion" (which I referred to as a judgment) has nothing to do with me or my wife (it's his issue). I feel so ridiculously uncomfortable about it that I don't want to see him anymore. They want a "hierarchy", that people have to "earn respect", etc.

Is it "OK" for me to say, I love them and accept them as they are, but I need to give myself some serious physical space to stay serene, peaceful, and sane.

I still get stuck with this. In this situation, does cutting my brother out of my life constitute disrespecting his opinion?

Most other things like politics, the weather, opinions of movies fit more easily with - "i'll just let them think what they want" and I'm cool in the relationship. But that stuff just hits me emotionally real deep and I don't want it in my life. I want love, support, respect, and acceptance.

My brains twisting on this one.

lillamy

I think it's always OK to do that. It's always OK to do what you need for your own sanity, barring of course killing or harming people who drive you crazy. It is, however, hard to NOT consider the opinions of family because supposedly, they have your best interest in mind, right?

I also think it's different to say "you should divorce your wife" than "you should vote for Zaphod Beeblebrox"... When people start telling you how to live your life, then it's no longer just an opinion... it's them that are overstepping. In my mind.

With some relatives, I've just set boundaries for what is up for discussion. I have a relative who for reasons of her own has a tremendous hatred for men. Every time I talk to her, she tries to bring up how much better off I would be if I were single. It's a ridiculous discussion, as I'm very happily married, but if I let her go on, she will try to pick apart my life, my husband, my choices. And like you say -- that's not about me or my husband, it's all about her. So with her, I've simply said "My life and my choices are not a subject for discussion. End of story. More bean dip?"

Cutting people out of your life is hard, especially when it's family. I've worked around it and spent as little time as possible with this particular woman.

hopeful4

It is so hard. I have separated but something I had been working on with my therapist is not to compartmentalize my husband. I was also working on how to separate myself as a person. For the longest time I felt responsible for him, even sometimes his thoughts and actions. I have always wanted to "fix" him as he is quite the broken bird.

It has taken me therapy and Celebrate Recovery and the 12 steps to find me again. I promise it is within you to let her be. Eventually you will detangle yourself and you will both be better people because of it.

Good Luck and God Bless!

JustAGirl1971

Lol, thotful. I had the opposite. I am divorcing my AH and have had several family member's lecture me on how I'm making a mistake or question me on whether I've done everything I can to fix the marriage. In the beginning, I explained, argued, & pleaded my case until I was blue in the face. It did not make one bit of difference. They did not care what my opinion was. They just wanted to make sure I knew their opinion.

After one particularly grueling "discussion" with my sister, I finally realized that it really wasn't about me. Her opinion is hers and she's entitled to it (Yes, she's even entitled to an opinion about my life. I just don't have to listen to it or agree with it )

Now, I just say things like "you may be right", "I guess we'll see", "I understand your point" (notice that I have not said that I agree with their point!) Or, if they've really ticked me off, I may say "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what is best for ME." Then I change the subject, walk away, or hang up the phone. Whatever works.

ETA: Yes, you absolutely have the right to limit or even stop all contact with anyone at any time for any reason.

Mellybug

My mother was exactly the same way - and finally it got so bad that I just said one day, "I know you love me and want nothing but what you consider the best for me....but it's what YOU CONSIDER the best for me that I'm getting hung up on. This is my life, and I have to live it the way I feel is right for me. Will I make mistakes? Absolutely. Will I learn from them? I sure as heck hope so...But if I don't do things this way, I will never have learned anything. I love the fact that you care so deeply for me. I have to do this for me now."

Of course, when it all went south I got the big fat, "I TOLD YOU SO"...but in the end, I was in a much better place.

thotful

I have a hard time with it in wanting people to just back off of my life. Here I am staying sober (18 months), my father is dying from the disease (of course, in their words, nothing's wrong and I'm "cynical"), and several siblings still "tie one on" and do sleep-overs (grown men in their late 20s, 30s, and early 40s). My wife is called names without apology, etc.

The "I told you so" seems like a selfish remark. The point in all of this is whether or not our loved ones actually "see" us, understand and respect our feelings (which can be different than they "think" they are), etc. I don't like the "black and white" thinking that a marriage is good or bad. I don't like defining a person's "value" at all. That is, I am told that my wife "isn't good enough". She's not an alcoholic, not in jail, etc. Even then, how could my mother judge my relationship when her relationship isn't the greatest? I asked her once, "How would you feel is someone was going after your marriage,", she replied with "well, my marriage isn't that great." I wish I could give my mother a backbone - but that's her problem I guess.

For example, for a while, my family has had the same attitude towards my sister's partner. My mind turned completely around at one point where I realized that all I needed to be concerned with is my relationship with him, and his relationship with my sister just wasn't my business. He's always been nice to me and for some odd reason, for a while, I wasn't very good at accepting his love and kindness. I judged his life relentlessly. Thank god/universe for sobriety! I've told my sister that I'm glad she's happy and leave it at that.

I certainly don't have the answers now and will keep on working my brain to figure out what works for me (meetings, 12-steps, etc.)

thotful

I forgot to mention that I offered the estranged siblings to meet with my wife and I for counseling. They both refused (along with their wives). They refuse to meet at all to talk to my wife and I.

I'm not sure what relationship I would be OK with at all at this juncture. Maybe after much more recovery (I'm on step 4 & 5), I will figure something out.

AnvilheadII

thotful, it's possible you're over thinking this a bit! family aside, if someone else basically told you they did not like or approve of your wife and feel that you SHOULD get a divorce, just how much more of your precious time would give them? and why would you TRY to spend time with them?? after they have called your dear wife names???

some people are best kept at a distance. with little to no contact. we totally get to make that call not matter who they are. we let them be, let them have their opinions, and live our own lives without their negativity. LIVE AND LET LIVE.

thotful

Thanks everyone!

Stung

My husband struggles with this too, like really, really struggles. His parents and siblings loath me and have urged that he "lawyer up and divorce" me, the wretched, shrew that I am. How dare I make my alcoholic husband leave "his" home. He was still talking to his family up until recently, trying to reconcile two things that simply cannot be reconciled by him. Here's my take on it, as a person in a similar position as your wife. Lets say that the person/people saying you should divorce your wife, calling her names are anyone else (friends, co-workers, cashier at the grocery store) would you talk to that person again? Probably not, or if you did you would keep them at a distance and not even talk about your wife or marriage. I told my husband that he gets to choose to either try to respect their wishes or respect our marriage. It's 100% his choice. He can divorce me or he can listen to his parents and siblings disrespect and hate on his wife/mother of his children. If he chose the latter it would then have had my own decisions to make. My husband has gone no contact with them all now and he was sad that after a week that they stopped trying to contact him. He told me this is a big part of his therapy focus now.