Now he's just somebody that I used to know
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Now he's just somebody that I used to know
It has been so helpful to hear others' stories and to hear the wisdom shared by everyone here. I ask, humbly, for not advice, but sharing of experiences from those who have been through this before.
I'm in the midst of a separation/divorce from my high school sweetheart who I married 2 years ago. When I met him and knew him before, he was gregarious, warm, loving, involved charmer. We stayed close after school and were best friends for 8 years. We went out separate ways, got married to another, got divorced. When we met back up 4 years later, we both had hopes of reclaiming that wonderfully warm, loving relationship. That's not what we got. It's as though I know nothing about him.
Two weeks after marriage AH told me he had $5k in unpaid credit card bills from drinking/eating out. Found out later his AF (chief enabler) had sent him the money and he spent it drinking/eating out again. This was just the beginning of all the hidden realities. He quit his job to go back to school, but might have ADHD, which made it hard to concentrate or follow through on homework. Thing with an ADHD diagnosis is the partner does need to participate more in helping to manage aspects. I was skeptical because it felt like enabling and I was aware of the heavy alcohol abuse although strangely, it had always been shared as really rare and sporadic. (How did I believe that it was ADHD at the time?) The next year was a disaster, non-stop fights, AH trying to reset expectations lower and lower all the while failing to meet the new lower expectations he set. After ADHD, we thought it might be PTSD. Finally, in March 2013, after 6 therapists and a full diagnostic, we figured out the alcoholism.
In July 2013, AH started attending AA meetings and had his "final beer".
In August, AH went to an AA meeting then decided not to come home because I had moved money from our joint account into my individual account to pay a vet bill he knew needed to be paid that day. His excuse for not coming home was that he needed that money to know if he needed to stay in a hotel, he could. Even after the explanation of the vet bill, he used his being out to renegotiate the power in our relationship. He redirected funds that were supposed to go into the joint account from his financial aid to a new account he set up. He wanted to not have to share his email passwords, not give me access to bank accounts and not have to share if I asked him to show me his phone. The access was negotiated as part of him being allowed to stay in the house given the flagrant lies in the past. For 2 months, we went back and forth. I told him that if he wanted to come back home he needed to restore the funds and the passwords/access and that he needed to get into treatment.
AH started intensive outpatient in Nov. There were no changes from outpatient, in fact several times he brought home sheets on how to approach something better and wanted to go over what he had learned and how I could apply it at home. He graduated from the program, but still wasn't substantially changing behavior at home. Just before Christmas, when visiting his local family, he shared with them what he had done - stealing, lying, manipulating, in real detail. It was my requirement for being around his family. Had just gotten so tired of not saying anything because I'd either be participating in the lies he had told or calling him out in front of his family.
Things seemed to be somewhat better through January. He was attending class full-time, working a 20 hour part-time job and going to 3-5 AA meetings a week. But by the second week of February, the fights were back. He picked a fight the second week, blew off a meeting we were supposed to have, then the next day changed the passwords, redirected funds from the new semester and refused to come home, answer his phone, etc.
Throughout the 2 years we've been married, he has repeatedly lied to his family about what my role in his repeated leaving has been. I almost have a permanent address under the bus. Has anyone else experienced being thrown under the bus by their AS for things that can only be described as wild lies? Is this part of the disease too? The majority of lies were told to his AF who is his chief enabler (to the tune of $25k/yr since 2010 in bail-outs for financial messes) in order to secure more bail-outs, but have also been told at school to get extensions on deadlines for tests/papers. The lies included my throwing him out without any money (truth: because he had no money in his accounts from not working - a detail conspicuously absent when he asked his AF for help) to my being physically abusive (truth: first time, he had put me in a headlock after a truly bizarre mental breakdown and second time - night before he last left - whipped me to the ground when I tried to grab his backpack during one of his run outs because the puppy had gotten out when he ran and I didn't want to lose the puppy when he opened the gate - not a joke).
It feels like I don't know the guy I married. He's become this selfish, lying, hurtful thing. His enmeshment with his AF makes me fear he'll only get sober when his AF passes on, if my AH can last that long. It's frustrating to see his AF riding in to the "rescue" and watching this formerly sweet, caring, affectionate man become such a shell for the disease.
I'm going to al anon, taking art classes, learning a new instrument, taking care of my physical, spiritual and emotional self, keeping my boundaries and am filing for divorce in order to protect my job from the financial mess that will be coming from his games (he hasn't gone to class since the day he moved out - the school called me as his emergency contact after a week of absence - but is collecting on financial aid and GI Bill for a second semester in a row).
If my AFIL can not step in, everything will hit in May - the divorce, the school loan clawbacks, the financial bars that will prevent him from registering in the summer unless he repays $16k for this semester. It might be enough to be bottom, who knows. But as long as my AFIL keeps stepping in, my AH will forever remain this selfish man-child. For the man I loved, I pray that everything will happen as it should. I'm out of the way and may God's grace find him.
AH's sobriety is his - the journey, the experience all of it. Truly, I get that.
But for my best friend who disappeared back in 2006, is there hope of that guy ever returning while there's an active enabling A "helping" him? Has anyone else had experience with enmeshed, unrecovered A enabling in-laws? How has that gone?
Much as I am not a fan of the guy I married, I still miss the guy I knew from 1998-2006. Has anyone else had the experience of knowing someone before addiction, seen them through addiction and been to the other side? I may not be around for AH's, but would be grateful for any shares.
I'm in the midst of a separation/divorce from my high school sweetheart who I married 2 years ago. When I met him and knew him before, he was gregarious, warm, loving, involved charmer. We stayed close after school and were best friends for 8 years. We went out separate ways, got married to another, got divorced. When we met back up 4 years later, we both had hopes of reclaiming that wonderfully warm, loving relationship. That's not what we got. It's as though I know nothing about him.
Two weeks after marriage AH told me he had $5k in unpaid credit card bills from drinking/eating out. Found out later his AF (chief enabler) had sent him the money and he spent it drinking/eating out again. This was just the beginning of all the hidden realities. He quit his job to go back to school, but might have ADHD, which made it hard to concentrate or follow through on homework. Thing with an ADHD diagnosis is the partner does need to participate more in helping to manage aspects. I was skeptical because it felt like enabling and I was aware of the heavy alcohol abuse although strangely, it had always been shared as really rare and sporadic. (How did I believe that it was ADHD at the time?) The next year was a disaster, non-stop fights, AH trying to reset expectations lower and lower all the while failing to meet the new lower expectations he set. After ADHD, we thought it might be PTSD. Finally, in March 2013, after 6 therapists and a full diagnostic, we figured out the alcoholism.
In July 2013, AH started attending AA meetings and had his "final beer".
In August, AH went to an AA meeting then decided not to come home because I had moved money from our joint account into my individual account to pay a vet bill he knew needed to be paid that day. His excuse for not coming home was that he needed that money to know if he needed to stay in a hotel, he could. Even after the explanation of the vet bill, he used his being out to renegotiate the power in our relationship. He redirected funds that were supposed to go into the joint account from his financial aid to a new account he set up. He wanted to not have to share his email passwords, not give me access to bank accounts and not have to share if I asked him to show me his phone. The access was negotiated as part of him being allowed to stay in the house given the flagrant lies in the past. For 2 months, we went back and forth. I told him that if he wanted to come back home he needed to restore the funds and the passwords/access and that he needed to get into treatment.
AH started intensive outpatient in Nov. There were no changes from outpatient, in fact several times he brought home sheets on how to approach something better and wanted to go over what he had learned and how I could apply it at home. He graduated from the program, but still wasn't substantially changing behavior at home. Just before Christmas, when visiting his local family, he shared with them what he had done - stealing, lying, manipulating, in real detail. It was my requirement for being around his family. Had just gotten so tired of not saying anything because I'd either be participating in the lies he had told or calling him out in front of his family.
Things seemed to be somewhat better through January. He was attending class full-time, working a 20 hour part-time job and going to 3-5 AA meetings a week. But by the second week of February, the fights were back. He picked a fight the second week, blew off a meeting we were supposed to have, then the next day changed the passwords, redirected funds from the new semester and refused to come home, answer his phone, etc.
Throughout the 2 years we've been married, he has repeatedly lied to his family about what my role in his repeated leaving has been. I almost have a permanent address under the bus. Has anyone else experienced being thrown under the bus by their AS for things that can only be described as wild lies? Is this part of the disease too? The majority of lies were told to his AF who is his chief enabler (to the tune of $25k/yr since 2010 in bail-outs for financial messes) in order to secure more bail-outs, but have also been told at school to get extensions on deadlines for tests/papers. The lies included my throwing him out without any money (truth: because he had no money in his accounts from not working - a detail conspicuously absent when he asked his AF for help) to my being physically abusive (truth: first time, he had put me in a headlock after a truly bizarre mental breakdown and second time - night before he last left - whipped me to the ground when I tried to grab his backpack during one of his run outs because the puppy had gotten out when he ran and I didn't want to lose the puppy when he opened the gate - not a joke).
It feels like I don't know the guy I married. He's become this selfish, lying, hurtful thing. His enmeshment with his AF makes me fear he'll only get sober when his AF passes on, if my AH can last that long. It's frustrating to see his AF riding in to the "rescue" and watching this formerly sweet, caring, affectionate man become such a shell for the disease.
I'm going to al anon, taking art classes, learning a new instrument, taking care of my physical, spiritual and emotional self, keeping my boundaries and am filing for divorce in order to protect my job from the financial mess that will be coming from his games (he hasn't gone to class since the day he moved out - the school called me as his emergency contact after a week of absence - but is collecting on financial aid and GI Bill for a second semester in a row).
If my AFIL can not step in, everything will hit in May - the divorce, the school loan clawbacks, the financial bars that will prevent him from registering in the summer unless he repays $16k for this semester. It might be enough to be bottom, who knows. But as long as my AFIL keeps stepping in, my AH will forever remain this selfish man-child. For the man I loved, I pray that everything will happen as it should. I'm out of the way and may God's grace find him.
AH's sobriety is his - the journey, the experience all of it. Truly, I get that.
But for my best friend who disappeared back in 2006, is there hope of that guy ever returning while there's an active enabling A "helping" him? Has anyone else had experience with enmeshed, unrecovered A enabling in-laws? How has that gone?
Much as I am not a fan of the guy I married, I still miss the guy I knew from 1998-2006. Has anyone else had the experience of knowing someone before addiction, seen them through addiction and been to the other side? I may not be around for AH's, but would be grateful for any shares.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 609
My story is similar to yours. Known separated AH since we were 12, had previous marriages and married each other and now share a 5 year old daughter.
Sadly, because alcoholism is progressive, my husband is just not the same man anymore. I have to grieve who he was. It is so hard because even if he eventually hits rock bottom, finds sobriety and recovery successfully, he will be wired differently. It took me a long time to realize that. I have to stop and accept reality for who he is today instead of what he was or could be. It is so hard to grieve for someone who is alive, who I see every day, who I love so much. Addiction has stolen my love and it hurts me to my core but I have to realize he is an adult and choosing this every day he is not in recovery.
Sadly, because alcoholism is progressive, my husband is just not the same man anymore. I have to grieve who he was. It is so hard because even if he eventually hits rock bottom, finds sobriety and recovery successfully, he will be wired differently. It took me a long time to realize that. I have to stop and accept reality for who he is today instead of what he was or could be. It is so hard to grieve for someone who is alive, who I see every day, who I love so much. Addiction has stolen my love and it hurts me to my core but I have to realize he is an adult and choosing this every day he is not in recovery.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mmmmmm
Posts: 3,178
The first wife might be informative to help u determine if this is alcoholism or a personality disorder and alcoholism though you could piece it together I bet.
I am only 10+ months out with RAH in recovery. It is difficult. I have known my H forever. From my view, he appears to have many ACOA behaviors, but I think the window for him to be willing to work on more change might be closed. Staying on my own side of recovery is frustrating bc I see I am doing better, he is not drinking, but our relationship is really tattered. He is unwilling for marital counseling. He denies his drinking impacted me and DS bc he economically provided for us. Every time I try to talk to him he goes into denial and deflection. For now I keep trying as there are lessons for me on my recovery, but I also know I might have to step up and dissolve this marriage. A lot of As will not drink but not have a full spiritual conversion. They struggle just to survive daily and the partner sees the unvarnished person. But my RAH does work hard at not drinking, he does have a job, he goes to church, and he reads from various AA and daily religious books. He just can't face what he did to his small family...
I am sorry for your heartbreak. Hugs.
I am only 10+ months out with RAH in recovery. It is difficult. I have known my H forever. From my view, he appears to have many ACOA behaviors, but I think the window for him to be willing to work on more change might be closed. Staying on my own side of recovery is frustrating bc I see I am doing better, he is not drinking, but our relationship is really tattered. He is unwilling for marital counseling. He denies his drinking impacted me and DS bc he economically provided for us. Every time I try to talk to him he goes into denial and deflection. For now I keep trying as there are lessons for me on my recovery, but I also know I might have to step up and dissolve this marriage. A lot of As will not drink but not have a full spiritual conversion. They struggle just to survive daily and the partner sees the unvarnished person. But my RAH does work hard at not drinking, he does have a job, he goes to church, and he reads from various AA and daily religious books. He just can't face what he did to his small family...
I am sorry for your heartbreak. Hugs.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,434
He may never be the same person again.
He may someday choose to seek recovery, or not.
From what you've posted here, he is a long way from stopping
especially if his father keeps enabling.
My question to you is what you are doing to protect yourself in this situation?
Are you on the line for any of these loans?
Have you talked to lawyer about protecting your rights?
What is your next step for you, him aside?
He will do what he will do, and you can't control that, but you can
work on your own situation.
It sounds like you have been, but what if things get even worse?
Are you moving or are you asking him to? Who is on the lease?
Don't let him destroy your credit rating more than he already has--
I'm sorry you are going through this.
Any therapy or alanon possible to help you deal with this?
He may someday choose to seek recovery, or not.
From what you've posted here, he is a long way from stopping
especially if his father keeps enabling.
My question to you is what you are doing to protect yourself in this situation?
Are you on the line for any of these loans?
Have you talked to lawyer about protecting your rights?
What is your next step for you, him aside?
He will do what he will do, and you can't control that, but you can
work on your own situation.
It sounds like you have been, but what if things get even worse?
Are you moving or are you asking him to? Who is on the lease?
Don't let him destroy your credit rating more than he already has--
I'm sorry you are going through this.
Any therapy or alanon possible to help you deal with this?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
My STBXAH and I knew each other since I was 14 and he was 16. We had a wild, Romeo and Juliet romance as kids, then lost touch after our teens for 5-7 years. When we reconnected as adults, he really appeared to have his **** together (in hindsight I know he in no way had his **** together) and I thought our challenges were normal, mid-20s, young entrepreneurs kinds of challenges (they were not). We are nearly divorced today -- possibly as soon as the end of this month. We've been separated for about a year and a half. I waited for a long time to see whether he could get himself together without me in the picture. He didn't.
He is heavily enmeshed with his parents. They will save him whether he wants it or not. He lives at home, he's about 1 year unemployed and as far as I know has made no genuine attempts at pursuing recovery. I've often said that they will hold his hand and walk him directly into his grave, all the time denying he is a "real" addict like those other people and celebrating what a lovely and functional family they have. Their happiness and denial is maintained at the expense of his well-being. He self-destructs to keep them from seeing how terrible things really are for him. His job is to call his parents in a time of crisis with lot of excuses, plans that never come to fruition and promises to change his ways forever this time, and their job is to write checks and look the other way. This was going on long before I entered the picture, and it continues now that I'm gone.
Before we split up -- hell, after we split up -- I tried to talk to everyone, tried to encourage everyone to learn everything they could about alcoholism and the alcoholic family, hoping they could come together for his sake when he was suicidal and I truly didn't believe he would go on living. I was told it was their business and to shut it down and go away. They did nothing, he did nothing. They like the dance. Something about this dynamic is working for all of them, so they keep on dancing.
He is heavily enmeshed with his parents. They will save him whether he wants it or not. He lives at home, he's about 1 year unemployed and as far as I know has made no genuine attempts at pursuing recovery. I've often said that they will hold his hand and walk him directly into his grave, all the time denying he is a "real" addict like those other people and celebrating what a lovely and functional family they have. Their happiness and denial is maintained at the expense of his well-being. He self-destructs to keep them from seeing how terrible things really are for him. His job is to call his parents in a time of crisis with lot of excuses, plans that never come to fruition and promises to change his ways forever this time, and their job is to write checks and look the other way. This was going on long before I entered the picture, and it continues now that I'm gone.
Before we split up -- hell, after we split up -- I tried to talk to everyone, tried to encourage everyone to learn everything they could about alcoholism and the alcoholic family, hoping they could come together for his sake when he was suicidal and I truly didn't believe he would go on living. I was told it was their business and to shut it down and go away. They did nothing, he did nothing. They like the dance. Something about this dynamic is working for all of them, so they keep on dancing.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Thank you all for the feedback and shares.
I was very fortunate to have protected myself very early from his financial mess. The house is in my name and was owned before we married. Same with the car. The piece that's hanging and may take some doing to finish out is the actual divorce. I had already contacted an attorney back in December to start putting the plan in place and all I need now are the account numbers of his student loans and bank accounts to get everything filed, since I already know my own. Of course, with him not responding to phone calls or emails, it makes it impossible to know what those account numbers are or where to have him served, other than work. The divorce needs to be done before June 30th for financial reasons and our state has a 60 day cooling off period. It's looking like one option is to show up at his place of work in order to get that information, but even that's not a sure fire way to get him to give up the numbers. That and with the way he's lied in the past about what I'm actually trying to do, I'm not entirely sure he won't tell his place of work that I showed up to make trouble. It's ridiculous to expect that he'll some how handle the divorce with more maturity than he's been living the last decade, but for some reason, I keep confusing myself into believing I'm dealing with a rational adult.
In terms of self-care, I've been continuing to take care of myself, seeing a therapist and a health coach. For the most part, I protected myself well throughout. Chasing down the diagnosis for so long has been the exhausting part. All the information about what the original debt was from and how bad the drinking had actually been came out last March. It took me a while to read up and understand what we were actually dealing with in terms of A, especially because of the initial diagnoses of ADHD and then potentially PTSD. ADHD has impulse control, financial issues, poor grades from inattention and lying. It was a great misdirect that took a year to sort out as not the real issue.
In asking for experiences, I think part of what I'm looking for is not a definitive answer of what the future holds, but at least some ideas of what it may look like so I can plan accordingly to protect myself through the divorce. Anyone figure out a way yet to predict the insanity that comes along with A? lol
I was very fortunate to have protected myself very early from his financial mess. The house is in my name and was owned before we married. Same with the car. The piece that's hanging and may take some doing to finish out is the actual divorce. I had already contacted an attorney back in December to start putting the plan in place and all I need now are the account numbers of his student loans and bank accounts to get everything filed, since I already know my own. Of course, with him not responding to phone calls or emails, it makes it impossible to know what those account numbers are or where to have him served, other than work. The divorce needs to be done before June 30th for financial reasons and our state has a 60 day cooling off period. It's looking like one option is to show up at his place of work in order to get that information, but even that's not a sure fire way to get him to give up the numbers. That and with the way he's lied in the past about what I'm actually trying to do, I'm not entirely sure he won't tell his place of work that I showed up to make trouble. It's ridiculous to expect that he'll some how handle the divorce with more maturity than he's been living the last decade, but for some reason, I keep confusing myself into believing I'm dealing with a rational adult.
In terms of self-care, I've been continuing to take care of myself, seeing a therapist and a health coach. For the most part, I protected myself well throughout. Chasing down the diagnosis for so long has been the exhausting part. All the information about what the original debt was from and how bad the drinking had actually been came out last March. It took me a while to read up and understand what we were actually dealing with in terms of A, especially because of the initial diagnoses of ADHD and then potentially PTSD. ADHD has impulse control, financial issues, poor grades from inattention and lying. It was a great misdirect that took a year to sort out as not the real issue.
In asking for experiences, I think part of what I'm looking for is not a definitive answer of what the future holds, but at least some ideas of what it may look like so I can plan accordingly to protect myself through the divorce. Anyone figure out a way yet to predict the insanity that comes along with A? lol
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,434
Originally Posted by HSSH 
Thank you all for the feedback and shares.
Anyone figure out a way yet to predict the insanity that comes along with A? lol
Anyone figure out a way yet to predict the insanity that comes along with A? lol
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Florence
I've often said that they will hold his hand and walk him directly into his grave, all the time denying he is a "real" addict like those other people and celebrating what a lovely and functional family they have. Their happiness and denial is maintained at the expense of his well-being.
Before we split up -- hell, after we split up -- I tried to talk to everyone, tried to encourage everyone to learn everything they could about alcoholism and the alcoholic family, hoping they could come together for his sake when he was suicidal and I truly didn't believe he would go on living. I was told it was their business and to shut it down and go away. They did nothing, he did nothing. They like the dance. Something about this dynamic is working for all of them, so they keep on dancing.
Before we split up -- hell, after we split up -- I tried to talk to everyone, tried to encourage everyone to learn everything they could about alcoholism and the alcoholic family, hoping they could come together for his sake when he was suicidal and I truly didn't believe he would go on living. I was told it was their business and to shut it down and go away. They did nothing, he did nothing. They like the dance. Something about this dynamic is working for all of them, so they keep on dancing.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
I almost have a permanent address under the bus.
Anvil said to someone else today that of course you will be blamed for everything, because the alternative would be him taking responsibility... and that is simply inconceivable!
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 786
Originally Posted by lillamy
Funny we haven't run into each other -- maybe we're under different buses? Anvil said to someone else today that of course you will be blamed for everything, because the alternative would be him taking responsibility... and that is simply inconceivable!
Anvil said to someone else today that of course you will be blamed for everything, because the alternative would be him taking responsibility... and that is simply inconceivable!Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
Sorry, I got interrupted there...
Yes, yes, and yes. And the way I learned to think about it was like this: The addiction is stronger than most everything (definitely including a spouse's love). The addiction does not want to share its host organism with anything. It's self-perpetuating and wants it's drug and that's it. So everything an addict does serves this purpose. I learned to think of AXH's lies not as the lies "we" tell -- you know, when you lie about a flat tire when the reality was you were having hot sex and that's why you're late for work. His lies were so convincing to people because he actually believed they were the truth.
My therapist said addicts often create a script for their lives, and start believing it. So when AXH said he wouldn't have to drink if I wasn't so fat, it wasn't that he was being deliberately mean, he really thought that was the case. When we didn't have money to buy food and he yelled at me for wasting money even though his liquor account was what sucked the $$$ out of the bank, he really believed that was the truth.
I've actually only known addicts who were already sober when I got to know them, or who were already addicted. I never saw anyone before, during, and after, so to speak.
I've never seen it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The only addicts I've seen recover are ones where their "support system" has been educated in what alcoholism is, and made a united front in not enabling.
I'm sorry to be a downer but that's my experience. Of course, there are many "double winners" here who can tell you about what their situation is -- and since they are in recovery, their stories may be more encouraging.
Has anyone else experienced being thrown under the bus by their AS for things that can only be described as wild lies? Is this part of the disease too?
My therapist said addicts often create a script for their lives, and start believing it. So when AXH said he wouldn't have to drink if I wasn't so fat, it wasn't that he was being deliberately mean, he really thought that was the case. When we didn't have money to buy food and he yelled at me for wasting money even though his liquor account was what sucked the $$$ out of the bank, he really believed that was the truth.
Has anyone else had the experience of knowing someone before addiction, seen them through addiction and been to the other side?
But for my best friend who disappeared back in 2006, is there hope of that guy ever returning while there's an active enabling A "helping" him? Has anyone else had experience with enmeshed, unrecovered A enabling in-laws? How has that gone?
I'm sorry to be a downer but that's my experience. Of course, there are many "double winners" here who can tell you about what their situation is -- and since they are in recovery, their stories may be more encouraging.
Getting there!!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,750
"The addiction is stronger than most everything (definitely including a spouse's love). The addiction does not want to share its host organism with anything. It's self-perpetuating and wants it's drug and that's it. So everything an addict does serves this purpose."
Wow! Thank you for this lillamy!!
Wow! Thank you for this lillamy!!
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