larrylive

I attended a BB study meeting last night, The facilitator informed us the Bill W had his Spiritual Awakening (White Light Version) while under the influence of phenobarbitol. I didn't think it was appropriate.

I believe the program is God based, but was informed that God-substitutes work just as well, ie; doorknobs and 3 toed sloths.

It was also shared that some oldtimers bet on whether a newcomer will make it.

I'm I in the wrong progam?


Regards,

Larry

sugarbear1

This isn't part of the steps, it's just opinions from some people in the fellowship.

CousinA

Not part of the steps but from Bill's story in the BB. The belladonna treatment and sedatives were common in the day. Dr. Bob and others wrote about using sedatives in the book. They're still used today.

"I was placed in a nationally-known hospital for the mental
and physical rehabilitation of alcoholics. Under the so-called
belladonna treatment my brain cleared …. Best of all, I me a
kind doctor who explained that though certainly selfish and
foolish, I had been seriously ill, bodily and mentally."

Only Bill knew who or what it is he saw and experienced. Whatever it is he believed, it was powerful enough to help him recover from alcoholism.

There are as many conceptions of gods as there are people in any given AA room.

-allan

Pete55

Spiritual Awakening/Experience/Epiphany can simply mean, the compulsion to drink has been removed.

Step12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps.

This Awakening may happen in many forms, each one is different, but some old timers I heard them mention similar experiences though.
The key here is,
as the result of these steps
The other key in Step 12 is "practice these steps".

If I was to coin my own wording, "finally the penny dropped, I don't have to drink again, and humbly grateful there's a program to maintain my sobriety and help those who want to want it to".

The Bill W version ?, No opinion on my part, dare not,
grateful he remained sober and met D Bob.

UncleMeat69

I like to refer to Spiritual Experience as something that can
happen spontaneously. It doesn't necessarily require any
work on my part. When I was 5, I was laying on the ground
looking at the sky & clouds and grasped the vastness of the
world and felt a spiritual experience. Other ones similar to
that occurred for me through the years.

A Spiritual Awakening, on the hand, occurred after I worked
through the steps. At Step 9, after I made a couple amends
I woke up one morning and realized that I no longer had the
urge to drink. It was quite subtle. No white light experience
or parting of the Red Sea. The urge has never returned.
The Awakening required work on my part - the working of the
Steps, and to keep to my recovery it requires continuous
working of the Maintenance Steps (10, 11 & 12) on a regular
basis coupled with ongoing interaction with the fellowship
through meetings and other AA work (GSR, Meeting Secretary,
Treasurer etc.)

All of these efforts, One Day at a Time, is much easier than trying
not to drink via my will-power, which is useless against alcohol.
It also enables me to get high on nothing. My sponsor told me
way back that you get high on nothing by taking a lot of it for
a long time.

miamifella

While I agree that most of the other things you cite were inappropriate, this does seem very appropriate.

I think it would be more accurate to describe the program as "belief-centered" rather than "god-centered." That is to say that it is the belief in something greater that is important and that the object of that belief itself is open to personal choice. If the god of someone's understanding is a doorknob or a sloth, the program can still be effective, since it is the belief that brings about the awakening.

This strikes me as a very important point to make especially if there were newcomers whose belief-system does not include a god in the conventional sense.

Now personally I think that art, compassion, karma, existential philosophy, Aristotle or any number of things might make better examples of potential higher powers than doorknobs and sloths, we should just be glad that some alternate possibilities were mentioned.

GracieLou

I don't know if they actually made bets but I was told once, by a now dear friend, that when I walked in the doors she thought, "Uh, NO"

She said I was gruff, harsh and angry and looking back now, I was.

Now she tells me that she cannot believe how far I have come. She said it was a reminder that nobody can predict how the program will change someone and effect their lives. She said it was a good wake up call to her that thinking that way was sort of complacency. She had become so comfortable with the comings and goings of so many, she had lost what it means to welcome all newcomers, no matter what her personal opinion was.

So do not look at that to harsh. It happens and it can be proven wrong.


I don't know. I know I am not. It does take a little time to understand some of the inner workings. I had no religion at all in my life. Not as a child or adult. I call my HP God by default but I can call him Steve if I want to. As long as I turn it over, it does not really matter, as long I believe it is a power greater than myself.

Don't give up on that BB study yet. I have gone to one since the beginning and it has made the difference for me. Give it a chance. You can always change your mind about the meeting later and find a different one to go to. That is one of the things I love about AA. There are so many groups to go to and find were you feel the most comfortable. Give it some time.

larrylive

When I first attended meetings 15yrs ago I was agnostic with atheistic tendencies. I endevoured to do what the orange-papers are doing now. (un)fortunately my disease got worse. I was beaten, battered and broken. Truely a hopeless case. No power on earth was going to save me from myself. Then I made the descision.....Please note the lack of step 2. I did. And I came to realize that so many people in AA have re-worked the program into just another self help group. This, I believe, is why the success rate has plummeted over time.

When an oldtimer talks of doorknobs, I find it heard to comprehend turning my will and my life over to the care of such things. I won't debate whether it works or not, for what we believe to be true will be true for us. I just feel it is bad form to elaborate on such misgivings. We don't allow people to speak of Jesus, Allah, Jehovah etc. but we encourage praying to doorknobs and owls? Something is amiss. Step 2 does say a power greater than ourselves. But as we commence onto step 3-12 they do say God.

When oldtimers speak of getting and using a sponsor for "the rest of your life", they are creating yet another dependacy. The sponsors task, as portrayed in the book, is to qualify the newcomer. To me this means to assess if the person is at that piont in their lives where the only thing left to do is turn said life over to the care of God. This was the pivitol piont in my recovery.

The second task of a sponsor is to explain/help with the steps. A proccess which should be undertaken immediately, thoroughly and efficiently. The longer the proccess takes, the more likely the newcomer is to relapse. We may be able to qoute stories to the contrary, but most of these arise from people who spend their lives in meetings, not doing 12th step work and boost their own self-esteem by controlling the lost and broken souls they call sponsees.

My goal is to help relieve the alcoholic of their bondage to the drink and then set them free on the path to do the same for others. I can not proffess of success along those lines, as newcomers diligently search for an easier,softer way. Doorknobs have no opions on lying, cheating and stealing. Nor do they demand rigourous honesty. God does. And all God ask's in return, is that we help another alcoholic.

Regards,
Larry

PS. @ Pete55 it does not say "practice these steps" it's "practice these principles". There is a difference, Having completed steps 1,2, & 3 I never have to do them again, provided I don't relapse. Step 10 covers the process of 4-9, albeit on a daily scale. Step 11 biulds upon what was started in step 3. All of which is culminated in step 12 provide we have biult a strong enough foundation.

Joe Nerv

I've heard people say that jokingly, but never in my many years of AA heard anyone claim their HP was a doorknob, radiator, or 3 toed sloth.

Never ever heard of any AA members doing that. People are human though and some are idiots, so I don't doubt you found a few who do.

Not sure how to answer that. Maybe? If it's AA anyhow, you're and only looking to find fault.

The bill Wilson thing I don't know too much about, but I'm currently reading Pass it On, so when I get to that part perhaps I can chime in .

Coldfusion

I don't think AA's success rate has "plummeted over time," and there is nothing wrong with being "just another self-help group."

Just try to get a self-help group together and have it last 78 years. Some of those folks in service positions need to break their anonymity to do their jobs--that is a pretty high price to pay for a stranger's sobriety.

Pete55

Thanks, I noticed it later.

sugarbear1

a willingness to believe or a willingness to set aside your old beliefs is all that is needed to be under the care of a power greater than you.....coming to believe in that power may occur as a result of working the steps 4-12.

muvinon

Every place I've ever been, SUPPOSEDLY people are taking bets on newcomers making it. I've yet to see money change hands.

It's just something people like to say. I've also never actually met someone who had a doorknob as a higher power.

I HAVE heard many people who had interesting story about a parrot. Seems there's one poor parrot that shows up in multiple drunkalogues. lol

In short, rule 62 should be applied liberally if you want to enjoy yourself.

shaun00

If i had a pound for every statement id heard in an AA meeting which raise my hackles id be a rich man .

Mostly these days and often through gritted teeth i ask myself this , How can i be of use to anyone or everyone here ?.....because bottom line is that is the only reason i attend AA meetings ..

Maybe this would help , the idea of a door knob for a higher power has been around for years and was supposed to symbolize willingness to maybe open a door to God , i have known plenty that eventually walked right into the room behind and let go of the door knob and remain recovered ...just a tiny bit of willingness to explore is all that is required .. ..

Carlotta

That!

paulokes

You see this is a matter of public record, pretty well known by anyone who does the basic reading around history of AA. I would be more worried if AA was the kinda place where people tried to cover up things like this

Thankfully I know plenty of folks including myself that have had experiences of their own just by working the steps. Maybe less dramatic than Bills but hey

And I like what Silkworth had to say when Bill rang him...."I don't understand whats happened to you but you better hang on to it"

P