AVRT- Some Questions
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AVRT- Some Questions
I have been studying Rational Recovery and AVRT with interest and have a few questions which some of you may be able to answer better than I. In doing so I do not want to imply that I have become concerned about my own sobriety. Indeed, I seem to have pretty much lost any craving for drink or tendency to self medicate for anxiety. After 25 years of sobriety I consider myself reasonably happy and able to cope with the challenges posed by old age (i am 86).
First of all I don’t want this thread to encourage a debate of the relative “merits” of AA vs. Rational Recovery. I have had issues with what might be called the “historic” or “original” Big Book version of AA but on the other hand have benefitted from many of the so called “tools” which have been built up by AA through the years. Tools such as doing one thing at a time (avoiding multitasking and prioritizing issues to focus on the most important ones first), trying not to change stuff which is not under my control, trying to avoid compulsive-obsessive or perfectionist behavior, trying to diminish dependency on the opinions of others, including even excessive dependence on AA itself. All these have been useful to me. Insights such as these are not peculiar to AA but may be found in many other places, such as Buddhism (which does not presuppose a God), Taoism, Christianity and other spiritual beliefs.
First question: Suppose a person, say with only a few years of sobriety, wanted to change his or her emphasis away from AA towards Rational Recovery. Would this require that person to abandon “tools” such as those i have mentioned or could these still be used in connection with a Big Plan? Are these “tools” inconsistent with Rational Recovery?
Second question: I have read Jack Trimpey’s book but am still a little vague as to the content of a Big Plan. Is it merely to decide, once and for all, not to listen to the “Beast”, learn to recognize its demands and then tell it to shut up, hoping that by doing so it will gradually wither away? Is this essentially an exercise in Cognitive Psychology, training a person to focus on “rational”, “affirmative”, non addictive thoughts rather than Beastly thoughts? Cognitive psychology as applied to addiction?
It may seem a little too easy. Like switching off a light bulb, or maybe switching one on. Is AVRT a smooth, easy path or might it be just as steep, long and risky as the traditional path taken by AA persons in what they term “recovery”? Do persons in Rational Recovery sometimes relapse? If so, then can they (should they?) benefit from the help, advice or support of others or is this a solitary program, the addict perhaps only with his or her professional counselor? If it were completely solitary then there would be little need for or interest in a Secular Connections forum on an SR website such as this.
W.
First of all I don’t want this thread to encourage a debate of the relative “merits” of AA vs. Rational Recovery. I have had issues with what might be called the “historic” or “original” Big Book version of AA but on the other hand have benefitted from many of the so called “tools” which have been built up by AA through the years. Tools such as doing one thing at a time (avoiding multitasking and prioritizing issues to focus on the most important ones first), trying not to change stuff which is not under my control, trying to avoid compulsive-obsessive or perfectionist behavior, trying to diminish dependency on the opinions of others, including even excessive dependence on AA itself. All these have been useful to me. Insights such as these are not peculiar to AA but may be found in many other places, such as Buddhism (which does not presuppose a God), Taoism, Christianity and other spiritual beliefs.
First question: Suppose a person, say with only a few years of sobriety, wanted to change his or her emphasis away from AA towards Rational Recovery. Would this require that person to abandon “tools” such as those i have mentioned or could these still be used in connection with a Big Plan? Are these “tools” inconsistent with Rational Recovery?
Second question: I have read Jack Trimpey’s book but am still a little vague as to the content of a Big Plan. Is it merely to decide, once and for all, not to listen to the “Beast”, learn to recognize its demands and then tell it to shut up, hoping that by doing so it will gradually wither away? Is this essentially an exercise in Cognitive Psychology, training a person to focus on “rational”, “affirmative”, non addictive thoughts rather than Beastly thoughts? Cognitive psychology as applied to addiction?
It may seem a little too easy. Like switching off a light bulb, or maybe switching one on. Is AVRT a smooth, easy path or might it be just as steep, long and risky as the traditional path taken by AA persons in what they term “recovery”? Do persons in Rational Recovery sometimes relapse? If so, then can they (should they?) benefit from the help, advice or support of others or is this a solitary program, the addict perhaps only with his or her professional counselor? If it were completely solitary then there would be little need for or interest in a Secular Connections forum on an SR website such as this.
W.
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Originally Posted by wpainterw 
First question: Suppose a person, say with only a few years of sobriety, wanted to change his or her emphasis away from AA towards Rational Recovery. Would this require that person to abandon “tools” such as those i have mentioned or could these still be used in connection with a Big Plan? Are these “tools” inconsistent with Rational Recovery?
Second question: I have read Jack Trimpey’s book but am still a little vague as to the content of a Big Plan. Is it merely to decide, once and for all, not to listen to the “Beast”, learn to recognize its demands and then tell it to shut up, hoping that by doing so it will gradually wither away? Is this essentially an exercise in Cognitive Psychology, training a person to focus on “rational”, “affirmative”, non addictive thoughts rather than Beastly thoughts? Cognitive psychology as applied to addiction?
It may seem a little too easy. Like switching off a light bulb, or maybe switching one on. Is AVRT a smooth, easy path or might it be just as steep, long and risky as the traditional path taken by AA persons in what they term “recovery”? Do persons in Rational Recovery sometimes relapse? If so, then can they (should they?) benefit from the help, advice or support of others or is this a solitary program, the addict perhaps only with his or her professional counselor? If it were completely solitary then there would be little need for or interest in a Secular Connections forum on an SR website such as this.
W.
Second question: I have read Jack Trimpey’s book but am still a little vague as to the content of a Big Plan. Is it merely to decide, once and for all, not to listen to the “Beast”, learn to recognize its demands and then tell it to shut up, hoping that by doing so it will gradually wither away? Is this essentially an exercise in Cognitive Psychology, training a person to focus on “rational”, “affirmative”, non addictive thoughts rather than Beastly thoughts? Cognitive psychology as applied to addiction?
It may seem a little too easy. Like switching off a light bulb, or maybe switching one on. Is AVRT a smooth, easy path or might it be just as steep, long and risky as the traditional path taken by AA persons in what they term “recovery”? Do persons in Rational Recovery sometimes relapse? If so, then can they (should they?) benefit from the help, advice or support of others or is this a solitary program, the addict perhaps only with his or her professional counselor? If it were completely solitary then there would be little need for or interest in a Secular Connections forum on an SR website such as this.
W.
Second question - You don't tell the Beast to shut up. You don't have to enter into a dialogue with it. It has no power to raise a glass to your lips. You have merely to ignore it. It doesn't matter whether it withers away, or grows louder. All that matters is that you ignore it.
Persons using RR aren't perfect and may succumb to the urgings of their AV. They may prefer not to characterize that as a "relapse," which lends it a gravitas it doesn't merit, but rather as a mistake they needn't repeat.
There's no bar to persons using RR seeking help from others, with the understanding that no external help is required; we and we alone have complete power over whether we choose to take a drink.
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First question: Suppose a person, say with only a few years of sobriety, wanted to change his or her emphasis away from AA towards Rational Recovery. Would this require that person to abandon “tools” such as those i have mentioned or could these still be used in connection with a Big Plan? Are these “tools” inconsistent with Rational Recovery
Second question: I have read Jack Trimpey’s book but am still a little vague as to the content of a Big Plan. Is it merely to decide, once and for all, not to listen to the “Beast”, learn to recognize its demands and then tell it to shut up, hoping that by doing so it will gradually wither away? Is this essentially an exercise in Cognitive Psychology, training a person to focus on “rational”, “affirmative”, non addictive thoughts rather than Beastly thoughts? Cognitive psychology as applied to addiction?
RR says you can think about whatever the heck you please, but recognize your addictive voice, and separate from it, as follows from your Big Plan. You have made this decision to quit, so therefore any thought of drinking again, or doubt in your ability to stay sober forever, is the work of your addictive thinking. These thoughts come and go, and are unable of themselves to compel your action. It is your Beast that is powerless, not you, simply because you say so.
Is AVRT a smooth, easy path or might it be just as steep, long and risky as the traditional path taken by AA persons in what they term “recovery”?
RR is not a new technique, it is simply the distilled experience of those who had had enough and quit 'on their own'. It is indeed exceedingly simple, and the degree of ease is entirely within one's own control. About 75% of those dependent or addicted do quit 'on their own', and this is how many of them do it.
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AVRT is effectively 'planned abstinence'. Sometimes I think people try and make it too complex. The book itself is written in a way to leave absolutely no loopholes to allow someone to drink. The big plan once made is final, otherwise it cannot be a big plan. It is as smooth or as easy as someone finds it. I see it as a subtle mind shift which may require some maintenance, hence the need for discussion occasionally. It absolutely does not suggest that anything after quitting will be easy or smooth, just that anything that occurs is nothing to do with your substance addiction and should be treated accordingly.
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From the replies thus far I gather that Rational Recovery and AVRT propose a method to quit drinking and to become free from addiction "on your own" and without the help of any other person or program. Is this accurate?
Is it also accurate to say that an effective Big Plan cannot provide for drinking in "moderation"?
W.
Is it also accurate to say that an effective Big Plan cannot provide for drinking in "moderation"?
W.
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Originally Posted by wpainterw
From the replies thus far I gather that Rational Recovery and AVRT propose a method to quit drinking and to become free from addiction "on your own" and without the help of any other person or program. Is this accurate?
Is it also accurate to say that an effective Big Plan cannot provide for drinking in "moderation"?
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Originally Posted by wpainterw
From the replies thus far I gather that Rational Recovery and AVRT propose a method to quit drinking and to become free from addiction "on your own" and without the help of any other person or program. Is this accurate?
But that does not mean you cannot seek support for other things. If you have issues around why you drank in the first place, like some childhood trauma, then it is perfectly sensible to seek help from a counsellor or relevant professional. But it has nothing really to do with your decision to stop drinking.
It is definitely not for moderation, though I did once come across an explanation of AVRT on the HAMS (harm reduction) website being suggested for use for 'alcohol free days'.
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AVRT devolves to common sense in so many aspects. If you are sick or clinically depressed and anxious, see a doctor. If you are soul sick, see a councillor or clergyman. If you need therapy for something or other, it only makes sense to go and have some. If your diet and lifestyle need attention, then it is only reasonable to fix those things too.
I guess the point is that one should seek help from those trained and experienced in giving it. One can only do this stuff sober however, and making that Big Plan from a place of deep knowing and understanding comes first. Confidence and belief in one's own ability is absolute, and follows from the definition of addiction. AVRT is self empowering in the absolute.
I guess the point is that one should seek help from those trained and experienced in giving it. One can only do this stuff sober however, and making that Big Plan from a place of deep knowing and understanding comes first. Confidence and belief in one's own ability is absolute, and follows from the definition of addiction. AVRT is self empowering in the absolute.
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Freshstart57 wrote "To believe that anything else is necessary for your sobriety, is to believe that you are unable to quit drinking and make this choice for yourself and by youself. This is ceding power and control to your addiction."
And also :"It is your Beast that is powerless, not you, simply because you say so."
I confess that I am still confused. Everything I know and have read about addiction, everything I have experienced, is that addiction, at least in its advanced stages, exhibits a situation where the patient has lost control. He or she cannot regain control merely by will power. That was the old myth. In my grandmother's day she would say, "You simply have to go and get a good grip on yourself." Addiction was merely a matter of bad behavior, weakness of the will and you really could stop any time you wanted to stop.
I am not a nurse or a doctor but I firmly believe that either one would say that the patients that they see in moderate or late stages of alcoholism need help to stop. If they attempt to detox by themselves this can be life threatening. They rightly fear stopping not only because of the horrid physical and psychological effects of quitting but also because they are simply scared, helpless and out of control. I cannot visualize saying to them that it's only the "beast" within them which is out of control and that they are still in the driver's seat. That they can simply ignore the beast. This is like saying to a man whom a tiger has in its jaws that it's going to be all right if he merely makes up his mind to ignore the tiger.
The only power left to an alcoholic, the only choice he or she can make is to surrender to competent professional help, to say, "I've had enough of this. i want it to stop and I can't do this by myself." That is what in AA is referred to as "Step One". It has validity, despite whatever problems there may be with later steps.
W.
And also :"It is your Beast that is powerless, not you, simply because you say so."
I confess that I am still confused. Everything I know and have read about addiction, everything I have experienced, is that addiction, at least in its advanced stages, exhibits a situation where the patient has lost control. He or she cannot regain control merely by will power. That was the old myth. In my grandmother's day she would say, "You simply have to go and get a good grip on yourself." Addiction was merely a matter of bad behavior, weakness of the will and you really could stop any time you wanted to stop.
I am not a nurse or a doctor but I firmly believe that either one would say that the patients that they see in moderate or late stages of alcoholism need help to stop. If they attempt to detox by themselves this can be life threatening. They rightly fear stopping not only because of the horrid physical and psychological effects of quitting but also because they are simply scared, helpless and out of control. I cannot visualize saying to them that it's only the "beast" within them which is out of control and that they are still in the driver's seat. That they can simply ignore the beast. This is like saying to a man whom a tiger has in its jaws that it's going to be all right if he merely makes up his mind to ignore the tiger.
The only power left to an alcoholic, the only choice he or she can make is to surrender to competent professional help, to say, "I've had enough of this. i want it to stop and I can't do this by myself." That is what in AA is referred to as "Step One". It has validity, despite whatever problems there may be with later steps.
W.
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I understand your confusion, AVRT ideas are opposed to many assumptions that you have come to accept. A detox is a medical issue, and those who need medical attention, as I said, should seek and receive it. Withdrawal from alcohol addiction can be life threatening. For others reading this who are still drinking, see your Doctor if you have concerns about withdrawal from alcohol.
As for being scared and helpless, these are cognitive issues, not medical ones. You say that you cannot imagine a scenario where someone decides that they will no longer make the dozen of decisions and perform the resulting actions that lead to further consumption of alcohol. This is your imagination, and I won't speak to it. But, what if the addict does this? What if the addict believes that he will no longer drink? What if he believes (and does not stop believing) that he is able to quit? Nothing forces that drink on him, and it is only when he stops believing in his ability to open his hand and drop the bottle, that he will actually drink.
This tiger is a creation of the person's own survival instinct, his drive for pleasure, and is subject to control by this person's rational mind. If he chooses to believe that this tiger is toothless and powerless, then it becomes so. AVRT does not ignore the tiger, it asserts the belief that it cannot control our actions. If this belief is held, it becomes true. The tiger is accepted but no longer feared, as it has become powerless.
RR and AVRT suggest that the alcoholic indeed say that he can no longer continue drinking, and that it makes sense for him to stop. It also maintains that he is within his capability to choose to quit drinking, and to do so.
This is not willpower, WPainterW. This is a different cognitive state, and has strong elements of self recognition, separation and acceptance. These are ideas that are thousands of years old.
I don't think it is a good idea for me to engage you in a comparative study of 12 step and non 12 step approaches. It might be appropriate in another forum, but this one says 12 step recovery discussion is not permitted. I will however attempt to describe the RR approach and answer every single question you might have.
I would be remiss if I did not direct you to the Rational Recovery website. There is more information there. There is also a comprehensive discussion of the topic - 'AVRT Discussion Thread', and many more threads here. May I suggest that you look at these. If you have questions please continue to ask them.
As for being scared and helpless, these are cognitive issues, not medical ones. You say that you cannot imagine a scenario where someone decides that they will no longer make the dozen of decisions and perform the resulting actions that lead to further consumption of alcohol. This is your imagination, and I won't speak to it. But, what if the addict does this? What if the addict believes that he will no longer drink? What if he believes (and does not stop believing) that he is able to quit? Nothing forces that drink on him, and it is only when he stops believing in his ability to open his hand and drop the bottle, that he will actually drink.
This tiger is a creation of the person's own survival instinct, his drive for pleasure, and is subject to control by this person's rational mind. If he chooses to believe that this tiger is toothless and powerless, then it becomes so. AVRT does not ignore the tiger, it asserts the belief that it cannot control our actions. If this belief is held, it becomes true. The tiger is accepted but no longer feared, as it has become powerless.
RR and AVRT suggest that the alcoholic indeed say that he can no longer continue drinking, and that it makes sense for him to stop. It also maintains that he is within his capability to choose to quit drinking, and to do so.
This is not willpower, WPainterW. This is a different cognitive state, and has strong elements of self recognition, separation and acceptance. These are ideas that are thousands of years old.
I don't think it is a good idea for me to engage you in a comparative study of 12 step and non 12 step approaches. It might be appropriate in another forum, but this one says 12 step recovery discussion is not permitted. I will however attempt to describe the RR approach and answer every single question you might have.
I would be remiss if I did not direct you to the Rational Recovery website. There is more information there. There is also a comprehensive discussion of the topic - 'AVRT Discussion Thread', and many more threads here. May I suggest that you look at these. If you have questions please continue to ask them.
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Do persons in Rational Recovery sometimes relapse?
seems no-one spoke to this. the answer is yes.
after making a Big Plan, people sometimes relapse.
how that is explained (which is confusing to me
)you can read a bit about in this thread:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...07-moving.html
If so, then can they (should they?) benefit from the help, advice or support of others or is this a solitary program, the addict perhaps only with his or her professional counselor? If it were completely solitary then there would be little need for or interest in a Secular Connections forum on an SR website such as this.
i expect others will be along to speak to this. i do want to point out that the 'Secular Connections' forum encompasses people following not only RR/AVRT, but others use SMART, yet others use Women for Sobriety, or there are some like me who got sober in LifeRing Secular Recovery, which does not have a program to follow as such, but is based on secularity, self-help and sobriety (abstinence).
today happens to be my anniversary, and i'm starting my 8th year. and i'm going in exactly the opposite direction from the one your questions are taking. interesting, therefore, to me to see them in reverse, so to speak.
seems no-one spoke to this. the answer is yes.
after making a Big Plan, people sometimes relapse.
how that is explained (which is confusing to me
)you can read a bit about in this thread:http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...07-moving.html
If so, then can they (should they?) benefit from the help, advice or support of others or is this a solitary program, the addict perhaps only with his or her professional counselor? If it were completely solitary then there would be little need for or interest in a Secular Connections forum on an SR website such as this.
i expect others will be along to speak to this. i do want to point out that the 'Secular Connections' forum encompasses people following not only RR/AVRT, but others use SMART, yet others use Women for Sobriety, or there are some like me who got sober in LifeRing Secular Recovery, which does not have a program to follow as such, but is based on secularity, self-help and sobriety (abstinence).
today happens to be my anniversary, and i'm starting my 8th year. and i'm going in exactly the opposite direction from the one your questions are taking. interesting, therefore, to me to see them in reverse, so to speak.
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I started this thread out with "First of all I don’t want this thread to encourage a debate of the relative “merits” of AA vs. Rational Recovery." and I'm getting a little spooked that we might be getting into deep waters or maybe "reefs and shoals", as they say in the Navy. So I'll bow out of this discussion and wish you all well. I'm not really sure what got me sober but I'm sure glad it happened. Maybe the best admonition is to "keep it simple." I can handle that and I can cope with the stuff which comes my way. Also I have the respect of my dog- that's what it's all about- doing what's right for the dog!
W.
W.
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Nah, I think we're good here, no issues so far. Relapse and AVRT is an interesting topic to me, and to others too. I just don't have anything really to add to that particular discussion. While AVRT might be the defining descriptor of my sobriety, I use all sorts of other things too. SMART has excellent ideas and practices, and LifeRing adds fellowship and group support, all useful and valuable.
I think we are all glad you are sober, too, wpainterw, and grateful for what you bring to SR. Onward!
I think we are all glad you are sober, too, wpainterw, and grateful for what you bring to SR. Onward!
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Originally Posted by Riel
You don't tell the Beast to shut up. You don't have to enter into a dialogue with it. It has no power to raise a glass to your lips. You have merely to ignore it. It doesn't matter whether it withers away, or grows louder. All that matters is that you ignore it.
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Originally Posted by Riel:
You don't tell the Beast to shut up. You don't have to enter into a dialogue with it. It has no power to raise a glass to your lips. You have merely to ignore it. It doesn't matter whether it withers away, or grows louder. All that matters is that you ignore it.
You don't tell the Beast to shut up. You don't have to enter into a dialogue with it. It has no power to raise a glass to your lips. You have merely to ignore it. It doesn't matter whether it withers away, or grows louder. All that matters is that you ignore it.
Originally Posted by jshep
This quote (From Riel on 10-06-13) just got to me and made so much sense. I will come back to this again and again, lest I forget.
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