2 Red Herrings of Powerlessness ... or am i crazy?
Your Distant Friend
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: pittsburgh, pa
Posts: 255
2 Red Herrings of Powerlessness ... or am i crazy?
Someone posted a cool graphic on powerless, but I have a problem with 2 of these sentiments, which I will present, because they seem to be missing the point, or, I am missing the point? I'd like input from others.. Here is the graphic.. can you spot the two that are questionable?
I still like this a LOT.. but here are my questionable points:: 1)
I am in a 12_step program and have a sponsor and working the steps as they are written, not how a lot of people have configured them to exempt themselves from responsibility.. I believe one is doing oneself a great disservice to themselves and the world when they just excuse themselves from the obvious reality that the important outcomes in life are actually GREATLY in our hands...
The first step reads:
"we admitted we were powerless over [alcohol/addictions]..."
..NOT power over "outcomes."..
if you were powerless over your outcomes, man,
you may as well just watch a movie about your life and be done with it.
AND, 2)
are you sure about that?
that you can only change yourself?
and, how much of yourself can you really change?
i am inclined to think, as Socrates, that an unexamined life is not worth living, and that we should make changes to ourselves, (or let a higher power do it, more probable), whenever we find fault and defects of character, but I do recognize that we cannot change everything about who we are (and would not want to), and should leverage our talents, skills and strengths in life as well as work on our disadvantages in order to achieve things. I know that yeah, obviously, you can't change other people either, which is what this notion seeks to signify. Yet it implicates with the word "only", along with other similar cries by people in the rooms that 'letting go" is something to do completely.. which ignores the whole purpose of having intentions.. what a waste! Are we all servants to higher powers and nothing else? this seems to be a really bad, badidea.
The good news is, i think, that everyone who believing such fallacies is reading it wrong, and the 12 steps are still solid!
The references to self will run riot is not the only case the will of an alcoholic or addict's will shall ever be in. We do recover. and we do have a will, when healthy enough, can accomplish great things.
the 2nd step not to surrender our will to the care of someone who will not give it back - but to do so to save us from folly in early recovery. ultimately WE have the power of the will, and I take this step to mean that we allow our higher power to influence our will, to temporarily abandon our self's will, and no more. Otherwise nobody could ever DO the 2nd step, deciding not to ever decide anything, is essentially what it would be become, without such clarification. And that, of course, is nonsense! You would also have to become an expert schizophrenic/ god psychic overnight to accomplish that task for even 1 whole day.
Recognizing that we need help with our self-will (not that we need to discard of it), taking some suggestions, realizing that we have to abandon our own ideas [about alcohol]. and this, to me, is sufficent enough for step 2. am I right? I will be asking my sponsor this and show him this post as well.
The "completely" part of letting go should not be confused in the 3rd step of giving our will to a higher power the 3rd step being a commitment to do all 12 steps, as far as i understand it.. it is NOT a commitment to give up our will to another entity in every respect. I believe our creator wants us to be ourselves.. our TRUE selves, and gave us a Will for a reason; Discarding that reason is probably the biggest folly of alcoholics who do NOT recover [guessing], it seems because they cannot achieve the manifestations of their intentions. they gave up on ALL intentions.. a really good excuse to not feel bad since the outcome isn't in your hands, might as well drink! I would, if I thought this way.
Notable achievements in life would never get accomplished without people believing they could say things.. since "I can't" never got anything done. and these quotes also are found in the Forbes book of business quotations, on Achievement:
"Nothing splendid has ever been achieved except by those who dared believe that something inside them was superior to circumstance." ~ Bruce Barton
and,
"We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." ~ C. Malesherbes
If you think believing in half-truths is helpful, fine, so long as you understand the underlying context which is the whole truth it refers to. I am just concerned about the implications of steering yourself in the wrong directions when you don't even believe you don't have a steering wheel. the greatest (not the most successful) trick of the devil to make everyone believe he doesn't exist, but an even more commonly successful trick of the devil, I believe, is to make everyone believe that your will (and its greatest potential) is not important at all. I would personally want to drink and do drugs everyday If I didn't believe I had a mission in life and that I should align my daily self will according to it. Some of that mission, if successful and I should hope, will change the world to be better than I found it.
any feedback on these thoughts is welcome. thx for letting me share
I still like this a LOT.. but here are my questionable points:: 1)
I am in a 12_step program and have a sponsor and working the steps as they are written, not how a lot of people have configured them to exempt themselves from responsibility.. I believe one is doing oneself a great disservice to themselves and the world when they just excuse themselves from the obvious reality that the important outcomes in life are actually GREATLY in our hands...
The first step reads:
"we admitted we were powerless over [alcohol/addictions]..."
..NOT power over "outcomes."..
if you were powerless over your outcomes, man,
you may as well just watch a movie about your life and be done with it.
AND, 2)
are you sure about that?
that you can only change yourself?
and, how much of yourself can you really change?
i am inclined to think, as Socrates, that an unexamined life is not worth living, and that we should make changes to ourselves, (or let a higher power do it, more probable), whenever we find fault and defects of character, but I do recognize that we cannot change everything about who we are (and would not want to), and should leverage our talents, skills and strengths in life as well as work on our disadvantages in order to achieve things. I know that yeah, obviously, you can't change other people either, which is what this notion seeks to signify. Yet it implicates with the word "only", along with other similar cries by people in the rooms that 'letting go" is something to do completely.. which ignores the whole purpose of having intentions.. what a waste! Are we all servants to higher powers and nothing else? this seems to be a really bad, badidea.
The good news is, i think, that everyone who believing such fallacies is reading it wrong, and the 12 steps are still solid!
The references to self will run riot is not the only case the will of an alcoholic or addict's will shall ever be in. We do recover. and we do have a will, when healthy enough, can accomplish great things.
the 2nd step not to surrender our will to the care of someone who will not give it back - but to do so to save us from folly in early recovery. ultimately WE have the power of the will, and I take this step to mean that we allow our higher power to influence our will, to temporarily abandon our self's will, and no more. Otherwise nobody could ever DO the 2nd step, deciding not to ever decide anything, is essentially what it would be become, without such clarification. And that, of course, is nonsense! You would also have to become an expert schizophrenic/ god psychic overnight to accomplish that task for even 1 whole day.
Recognizing that we need help with our self-will (not that we need to discard of it), taking some suggestions, realizing that we have to abandon our own ideas [about alcohol]. and this, to me, is sufficent enough for step 2. am I right? I will be asking my sponsor this and show him this post as well.
The "completely" part of letting go should not be confused in the 3rd step of giving our will to a higher power the 3rd step being a commitment to do all 12 steps, as far as i understand it.. it is NOT a commitment to give up our will to another entity in every respect. I believe our creator wants us to be ourselves.. our TRUE selves, and gave us a Will for a reason; Discarding that reason is probably the biggest folly of alcoholics who do NOT recover [guessing], it seems because they cannot achieve the manifestations of their intentions. they gave up on ALL intentions.. a really good excuse to not feel bad since the outcome isn't in your hands, might as well drink! I would, if I thought this way.
Notable achievements in life would never get accomplished without people believing they could say things.. since "I can't" never got anything done. and these quotes also are found in the Forbes book of business quotations, on Achievement:
"Nothing splendid has ever been achieved except by those who dared believe that something inside them was superior to circumstance." ~ Bruce Barton
and,
"We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." ~ C. Malesherbes
If you think believing in half-truths is helpful, fine, so long as you understand the underlying context which is the whole truth it refers to. I am just concerned about the implications of steering yourself in the wrong directions when you don't even believe you don't have a steering wheel. the greatest (not the most successful) trick of the devil to make everyone believe he doesn't exist, but an even more commonly successful trick of the devil, I believe, is to make everyone believe that your will (and its greatest potential) is not important at all. I would personally want to drink and do drugs everyday If I didn't believe I had a mission in life and that I should align my daily self will according to it. Some of that mission, if successful and I should hope, will change the world to be better than I found it.
any feedback on these thoughts is welcome. thx for letting me share
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,620
Wow, deep stuff.
Your sponsor will certainly have his hands full. One thing I have learnt over the years is that the steps cannot be understood in advance, only in hindsight.
Understanding, knowledge, skill, what ever are not requirements for taking the steps. Honesty, openmindedness and willingness are the only requirements, but these are indispensible. Things you don't understand now, like the full implications of "powerlessness" will become clear in time, as will the real meaning of letting go.
As far as "I can only change myself", the problem I have with that idea is that I didn't have the slightest idea what to become, or what needed changing. Changes were made for me, while I was doing my best with the steps, and I only noticed in hindsight. I became a thief who couldn't steal, a procrastinator who couldn't put things off, a selfish person who thinks about others, a liar who can't lie, a debtor with a compulsion to pay my bills, all in hindsight with no apparent effort from me. God was doing for me what I could not do for myself. Of course the other connotation of that saying is that I can't and shouldn't try to change others and I accept that completely.
Your sponsor will certainly have his hands full. One thing I have learnt over the years is that the steps cannot be understood in advance, only in hindsight.
Understanding, knowledge, skill, what ever are not requirements for taking the steps. Honesty, openmindedness and willingness are the only requirements, but these are indispensible. Things you don't understand now, like the full implications of "powerlessness" will become clear in time, as will the real meaning of letting go.
As far as "I can only change myself", the problem I have with that idea is that I didn't have the slightest idea what to become, or what needed changing. Changes were made for me, while I was doing my best with the steps, and I only noticed in hindsight. I became a thief who couldn't steal, a procrastinator who couldn't put things off, a selfish person who thinks about others, a liar who can't lie, a debtor with a compulsion to pay my bills, all in hindsight with no apparent effort from me. God was doing for me what I could not do for myself. Of course the other connotation of that saying is that I can't and shouldn't try to change others and I accept that completely.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,937
Originally Posted by emmanuel2012 
The first step reads:
"we admitted we were powerless over [alcohol/addictions]..."
..NOT power over "outcomes."..
if you were powerless over your outcomes, man,
you may as well just watch a movie about your life and be done with it.
Your Distant Friend
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: pittsburgh, pa
Posts: 255
thanks to all who responded
perhaps i've over-analyzed things, but I have a tendency to write more than I need to. yet i do believe I understand these steps (enough to discuss them)
and have taken them before, at least the ones I have discussed (1-3)
I do think its wrong to say that I don't like ALL the outcomes of my life
just the parts involving my alcohol and substance abuse, and relationships too, related to that abuse.
I have conceeded that I am powerless over alcohol/drugs,
NOT powerless over everything I decide (which is a cop-out!) or everything that is who I have become that is the result of my choices
TEMPORARILY, I abandon my will over to the care of a power greater than myself and I do see that such power was doing for me that which I cannot do for myself, and THAT is my choice too to do.
the first limb (teaching) of yoga is to learn Yama,
control over ones body, the cultivation of our true intentions;
\without learning Yama, we would feel restricted by our own beings.
and I believe that as I recover, I will learn to cultivate yama in more and more positive ways. Yama is a skill, and since the will is a gift of God - I do not denounce this gift entirely. and I believe this understanding not to be a folly. In fact it's the only way I can reconcile my yoga practice with the 12 steps.
In retrospect, hindsight, yes I do recognize when my higher power is doing things that I couldn't have done for myself, but its not everything! the majority of what happens to me are consequences of my work.
If you are happy with throwing the will that God gave you out the window PERMANENTLY, I tip my hat off to you, but I would drink! The thought of it cringes my soul in a negative way, smells of spiritual suicide to me.
I do think the Ego has a true purpose, to be used appropriately. Not to be trashed and destroyed. Helplessness is a source of great depression in life.
Wisdom to know the difference..
perhaps i've over-analyzed things, but I have a tendency to write more than I need to. yet i do believe I understand these steps (enough to discuss them)
and have taken them before, at least the ones I have discussed (1-3)
I do think its wrong to say that I don't like ALL the outcomes of my life
just the parts involving my alcohol and substance abuse, and relationships too, related to that abuse.
I have conceeded that I am powerless over alcohol/drugs,
NOT powerless over everything I decide (which is a cop-out!) or everything that is who I have become that is the result of my choices
TEMPORARILY, I abandon my will over to the care of a power greater than myself and I do see that such power was doing for me that which I cannot do for myself, and THAT is my choice too to do.
the first limb (teaching) of yoga is to learn Yama,
control over ones body, the cultivation of our true intentions;
\without learning Yama, we would feel restricted by our own beings.
and I believe that as I recover, I will learn to cultivate yama in more and more positive ways. Yama is a skill, and since the will is a gift of God - I do not denounce this gift entirely. and I believe this understanding not to be a folly. In fact it's the only way I can reconcile my yoga practice with the 12 steps.
In retrospect, hindsight, yes I do recognize when my higher power is doing things that I couldn't have done for myself, but its not everything! the majority of what happens to me are consequences of my work.
If you are happy with throwing the will that God gave you out the window PERMANENTLY, I tip my hat off to you, but I would drink! The thought of it cringes my soul in a negative way, smells of spiritual suicide to me.
I do think the Ego has a true purpose, to be used appropriately. Not to be trashed and destroyed. Helplessness is a source of great depression in life.
Wisdom to know the difference..
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Near Scranton PA
Posts: 424
"Don't drink and go to meetings". But it's a little more complex than that, isn't it?
My Higher Power, the God of my understanding, can do miraculous things and is working on me in ways that I can't perceive and may not understand BUT He doesn't own all responsibility for me.
The God of my understanding has imbued me with free will, dignity and His Grace. It's up to me to use those extravagant gifts to their best purpose. I believe that drinking myself senseless on a nightly basis was abusing those gifts but, who knows, maybe it was a necessary part of my journey? Time will tell.
The God of my understanding also, I believe, expects me to do certain things to help keep myelf safe. If I drive up a country road at night, with my headlights turned off, there's a pretty good chance I'm going to crash my car. The God of my understanding still loves me and wants what's best for me but is willing to let me pay the consequences for acting like a fool and placing the gifts He's given me in jeopardy. That's the burden of free will. By the same token, if I don't do the things I know to be necessary to maintain my sobriety, the God of my understanding will let me face those consequences, too. Not alone, by any means, but I will pay the earthly price for my carelessness.
My Higher Power, the God of my understanding, can do miraculous things and is working on me in ways that I can't perceive and may not understand BUT He doesn't own all responsibility for me.
The God of my understanding has imbued me with free will, dignity and His Grace. It's up to me to use those extravagant gifts to their best purpose. I believe that drinking myself senseless on a nightly basis was abusing those gifts but, who knows, maybe it was a necessary part of my journey? Time will tell.
The God of my understanding also, I believe, expects me to do certain things to help keep myelf safe. If I drive up a country road at night, with my headlights turned off, there's a pretty good chance I'm going to crash my car. The God of my understanding still loves me and wants what's best for me but is willing to let me pay the consequences for acting like a fool and placing the gifts He's given me in jeopardy. That's the burden of free will. By the same token, if I don't do the things I know to be necessary to maintain my sobriety, the God of my understanding will let me face those consequences, too. Not alone, by any means, but I will pay the earthly price for my carelessness.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by emmanuel2012
If you are happy with throwing the will that God gave you out the window PERMANENTLY, I tip my hat off to you, but I would drink! The thought of it cringes my soul in a negative way, smells of spiritual suicide to me.
I do think the Ego has a true purpose, to be used appropriately. Not to be trashed and destroyed. Helplessness is a source of great depression in life.
Yea yea, God's will, not mine... But really it is about aligning our will with His... We have free will for a reason, I am not God so I don't know all the reasons why He gave us free will... that is a topic for much more theologically inclined and eloquent folks than myself. However, I am confident in saying that throwing our free will out the window wasn't His plan...
If aligning your will with God's smells of spiritual suicide, then I don't what to tell you, though I never saw it that way. Actually I kinda saw it as a spiritual awakening...
The ego, according to Frued is essential, you will get no argument from me. In a spiritual perspective, being egocentric is much different, and I think is what Bill W. was talking about... Egoism, egotistical... seeing the world as... well, "What can you do for me?"... and, huh, egocentrism seems to apply to your state of mind in your original post and subsequent ones... especially to that spiritual suicide point... you have placed your will, your being, soul, whatever, at the center of the universe... that's gotta be a lonely place.
You've been coming here long enough to know that powerlessness and helplessness are two different things.
Are you drinking now?
Keep coming back!
Your Distant Friend
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: pittsburgh, pa
Posts: 255
wow thanks again for responses those are great
I'm glad to see when my points of contention are heard and thank for helping me see them through your perspectives.
yes I am gratefully sober today, sounds like you guys are too!
so the one comment someone mentioned about the source of these quotes from al-anon, that makes sense! to me all the more reason that a detailed discussion clarifying points of contra-indication may be helpful to both alcoholics and their loved ones- I'd like to think the two can "be on the same page" regarding spiritual points of focus
I'm glad to see when my points of contention are heard and thank for helping me see them through your perspectives.
yes I am gratefully sober today, sounds like you guys are too!
so the one comment someone mentioned about the source of these quotes from al-anon, that makes sense! to me all the more reason that a detailed discussion clarifying points of contra-indication may be helpful to both alcoholics and their loved ones- I'd like to think the two can "be on the same page" regarding spiritual points of focus
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,937
Originally Posted by emmanuel2012
wow thanks again for responses those are great
I'm glad to see when my points of contention are heard and thank for helping me see them through your perspectives.
yes I am gratefully sober today, sounds like you guys are too!
so the one comment someone mentioned about the source of these quotes from al-anon, that makes sense! to me all the more reason that a detailed discussion clarifying points of contra-indication may be helpful to both alcoholics and their loved ones- I'd like to think the two can "be on the same page" regarding spiritual points of focus
I'm glad to see when my points of contention are heard and thank for helping me see them through your perspectives.
yes I am gratefully sober today, sounds like you guys are too!
so the one comment someone mentioned about the source of these quotes from al-anon, that makes sense! to me all the more reason that a detailed discussion clarifying points of contra-indication may be helpful to both alcoholics and their loved ones- I'd like to think the two can "be on the same page" regarding spiritual points of focus
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by keithj
Over and over.
Originally Posted by emmanuel2012
the 2nd step not to surrender our will to the care of someone who will not give it back - but to do so to save us from folly in early recovery.
Originally Posted by emmanuel2012
ultimately WE have the power of the will, and I take this step to mean that we allow our higher power to influence our will, to temporarily abandon our self's will, and no more. Otherwise nobody could ever DO the 2nd step, deciding not to ever decide anything, is essentially what it would be become, without such clarification. And that, of course, is nonsense! You would also have to become an expert schizophrenic/ god psychic overnight to accomplish that task for even 1 whole day.
Recognizing that we need help with our self-will (not that we need to discard of it), taking some suggestions, realizing that we have to abandon our own ideas [about alcohol]. and this, to me, is sufficient enough for step 2. am I right? I will be asking my sponsor this and show him this post as well.
The "completely" part of letting go should not be confused in the 3rd step of giving our will to a higher power the 3rd step being a commitment to do all 12 steps, as far as i understand it.. it is NOT a commitment to give up our will to another entity in every respect. I believe our creator wants us to be ourselves.. our TRUE selves, and gave us a Will for a reason; Discarding that reason is probably the biggest folly of alcoholics who do NOT recover [guessing], it seems because they cannot achieve the manifestations of their intentions. they gave up on ALL intentions.. a really good excuse to not feel bad since the outcome isn't in your hands, might as well drink! I would, if I thought this way.
Recognizing that we need help with our self-will (not that we need to discard of it), taking some suggestions, realizing that we have to abandon our own ideas [about alcohol]. and this, to me, is sufficient enough for step 2. am I right? I will be asking my sponsor this and show him this post as well.
The "completely" part of letting go should not be confused in the 3rd step of giving our will to a higher power the 3rd step being a commitment to do all 12 steps, as far as i understand it.. it is NOT a commitment to give up our will to another entity in every respect. I believe our creator wants us to be ourselves.. our TRUE selves, and gave us a Will for a reason; Discarding that reason is probably the biggest folly of alcoholics who do NOT recover [guessing], it seems because they cannot achieve the manifestations of their intentions. they gave up on ALL intentions.. a really good excuse to not feel bad since the outcome isn't in your hands, might as well drink! I would, if I thought this way.
I've claimed powerlessness in more than a couple areas where I was anything BUT powerless. I was probably "lacking the courage to change the things I can" but I wasn't powerless. I've also made a similar mistake in the opposite direction - believing I had (or presently have) power in areas where I didn't (don't) - like thinking I could control my drinking, thinking I can control my thinking, or thinking I can control my feelings. What I CAN control (most of the time anyway) are my actions. What I'm not powerless to do is take actions even when I don't feel like it, don't want to, and would MUCH rather do something else (usually some sort of self-gratifying thing).
One of the things I've been pondering lately is "What is my part/duty/responsibility in my recovery and in my life?" One of the things I've recognized as I've thought about this is that I'm pretty quick to admit powerlessness (vs before AA.....I'd never SEE it let alone admit it) but I to tend to take it to the extreme at times. Say I'm in Florida and I want to go to Colorado. To get there, I have to (let's assume I'm driving) drive north and I have to drive west. Well, I like driving north but maybe I don't like going west......so what I do (sometimes) is drive north......wind up in Canada.....all the while "praying" God gets me to turn west toward Colorado. I had the power to turn west.....I just didn't do it because I don't LIKE driving west....and now I'm in Canada (oh.....the horror!! JK). As much as I've tried to get/convince/con God into doing some of my dirty-work for me, I haven't convinced Him yet......LOL.
Edit***
Oh yeah, Emmanuel......quit listening to trance. That stuff will destroy your brain! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
Your opinions are your opinions. Letting go does not always correlate to powerlessness. And. Just because stuff is written down doesn't mean it's right. I go by The Greatful Dead philosophy. "...believe if if you need it, if you don't just pass it on.." just because I turn an issue over to my higher power, it doesn't relieve me of the work I have to do to resolve an issue.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Gottalife
Wow, deep stuff.
Your sponsor will certainly have his hands full. One thing I have learnt over the years is that the steps cannot be understood in advance, only in hindsight.
Understanding, knowledge, skill, what ever are not requirements for taking the steps. Honesty, openmindedness and willingness are the only requirements, but these are indispensible. Things you don't understand now, like the full implications of "powerlessness" will become clear in time, as will the real meaning of letting go.
Your sponsor will certainly have his hands full. One thing I have learnt over the years is that the steps cannot be understood in advance, only in hindsight.
Understanding, knowledge, skill, what ever are not requirements for taking the steps. Honesty, openmindedness and willingness are the only requirements, but these are indispensible. Things you don't understand now, like the full implications of "powerlessness" will become clear in time, as will the real meaning of letting go.
Diligence
Tenacity
Assertiveness
Logic
Reason
Rationalization
These very same tools that worked so well for me the first 3 -4 decades of life, are now hopelessly broken and no amount of effort or willpower will ever make them start working again.
I now manage my life indirectly through the use of spiritual principles that reciprocate by managing my life for me. Honesty, openmindedness and willingness are indispensable but are not the only requirements. Humility, benevolence and detachment are even more useful. When I "practice these principles in all my affairs", I "suddenly realize the God is doing for me what I could not do for myself".
Letting go of the outcome is not the same as letting go off the responsibility. I make a noble effort but then let go of the results. Success or failure is not mine to pocket. I detach from the outcome as Eckhart Tolle likes to say.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Nelson, British Columbia
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by DayTrader
...so what I do (sometimes) is drive north......wind up in Canada.....all the while "praying" God gets me to turn west toward Colorado. I had the power to turn west.....I just didn't do it because I don't LIKE driving west....and now I'm in Canada (oh.....the horror!! JK).
And back to the topic... Admitting to myself (and I mean TRULY admitting to myself) that I was powerless over alcohol was probably one of the most powerful things that I've ever done in my life. Whether it was my free will or my higher power was responsible for dragging me to attend meetings and get the help and share in the fellowship/community isn't important. What IS important for me, is that, whether I made the choice, or whether the choice was made for me, I know that I have and hope to continue to have a quality of life which is vastly superior to the one that I left behind.
I wholly admit that I'm powerless over alcohol, but that does not make me a powerless person in every aspect of my life. Whether God/Great Spirit/Higher Power designed the plan, or my frontal lobes and my own ability to finally reason this through rationally, doesn't matter to me. What matters is, that I am not speeding headlong into a premature rendezvous with a pine box :-)
There are still some things in life that I'd like to do (Ego), and if it is to be then it is to be (Higher Power/Destiny). For me, there are other paradoxes in some of the messages of the path to recovery, but some questions are just plain difficult to answer, so personally, I try not to sweat it too much.
The Socrates quote of a life unexamined rings true to me as well.
Peace! And keep coming back!
Your Distant Friend
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: pittsburgh, pa
Posts: 255
trance music is so good!!! haha I will never stop doing that
yea I meant step 3 in that one reference not 2
i think I've made a clear distinction in my mind about how powerless I actually am but I work on this frequently because my tendency to take control of handling what is true. I believe there are higher powers that are evil and some that are good and the ones that are evil prey on victims who surrender their will too easily. so again this 3rd step is a decision to do all 12 steps with an open mind, not to become a servant of that higher power. there is a huge theological difference in truth and in practice. as long as you trust your higher power. I don't trust the heavens completely right now so it will take some time to lay the groundwork. some old ideas did not work.
those are ideas, and we're not my true will anyway. so maybe my higher power is my true self will, the one aligned with gods will. god is not a good concept for me religiously speakig i feel that I was god when I created my soul,
epistemologically that's what I believe
but in this really I will let the facts speak for themselves
I have a will, for better off for worse
I turn my will over to a higher power that I trust
will help me become more sane, namely the will
and today I am grateful to experience life through
my lenses of sobriety. the fact that I have extra time
to write my true beliefs here is also a blessing
if you would dissect a human into all of his parts,
you would not have to apologize for any one of them
(this includes the will, ihmo)
yea I meant step 3 in that one reference not 2
i think I've made a clear distinction in my mind about how powerless I actually am but I work on this frequently because my tendency to take control of handling what is true. I believe there are higher powers that are evil and some that are good and the ones that are evil prey on victims who surrender their will too easily. so again this 3rd step is a decision to do all 12 steps with an open mind, not to become a servant of that higher power. there is a huge theological difference in truth and in practice. as long as you trust your higher power. I don't trust the heavens completely right now so it will take some time to lay the groundwork. some old ideas did not work.
those are ideas, and we're not my true will anyway. so maybe my higher power is my true self will, the one aligned with gods will. god is not a good concept for me religiously speakig i feel that I was god when I created my soul,
epistemologically that's what I believe
but in this really I will let the facts speak for themselves
I have a will, for better off for worse
I turn my will over to a higher power that I trust
will help me become more sane, namely the will
and today I am grateful to experience life through
my lenses of sobriety. the fact that I have extra time
to write my true beliefs here is also a blessing
if you would dissect a human into all of his parts,
you would not have to apologize for any one of them
(this includes the will, ihmo)
Sally1009
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 467
It has always confused me in AA that we are supposed to surrender our will to God/Higher power, but apparently God gave us free will? So why would God give something only to ask for it back immediately?
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by Sally1009
It has always confused me in AA that we are supposed to surrender our will to God/Higher power, but apparently God gave us free will? So why would God give something only to ask for it back immediately?
Through hard lessons learned, as opposed to virtue, I've found my life to be more content and more peaceful if I submit my will to His.
It's a trial and error process.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Near Scranton PA
Posts: 424
And therein lies one of the riddles about AA I have trouble with.
AA purports to be a spiritual movement wherein we develop a Higher Power, the God of our understanding. I am very happily dug into AA and thank my Higher Power every morning for providing me such a program for living a sober and fulfilling life.
And, let me be specific, my Higher Power is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whose Grace is extended to me by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I'm old school and perfectly content with the God I learned about in my Baptist Sunday School and Jesuit High School and University. But that's me.
Where the water gets muddy, in my opinion, is when AAs are invited to make ANYTHING their Higher Power. The famous doorknob, the AA group, the neighbor's cat. It leads to some muddled theological reasoning. For instance, I might talk about free will and grace. That may have no place in my brother AAs cosmology. If we're invited to "build" our Higher Power, what do we do when Christian or Jewish or Muslim concepts are introduced into the equation?
There are underlying, universal precepts. One comes to mind; the idea that we should do a good deed with no expectation of recognition or reward. This is the the same idea as the Jewish mitzvah. But if my Higher Power is the doorknob, as described in AA literature, (Big Book? I'm sure an AA policeman can help me out here), and yours is Elohim the Lord of Hosts, can we really have a conversation about what our Higher Power requires or provides?
I almost envy my agnostic and atheist brother and sister AAs. They don't have to navigate these theological tide pools.
I guess I'll just rely on my conscience?
AA purports to be a spiritual movement wherein we develop a Higher Power, the God of our understanding. I am very happily dug into AA and thank my Higher Power every morning for providing me such a program for living a sober and fulfilling life.
And, let me be specific, my Higher Power is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whose Grace is extended to me by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I'm old school and perfectly content with the God I learned about in my Baptist Sunday School and Jesuit High School and University. But that's me.
Where the water gets muddy, in my opinion, is when AAs are invited to make ANYTHING their Higher Power. The famous doorknob, the AA group, the neighbor's cat. It leads to some muddled theological reasoning. For instance, I might talk about free will and grace. That may have no place in my brother AAs cosmology. If we're invited to "build" our Higher Power, what do we do when Christian or Jewish or Muslim concepts are introduced into the equation?
There are underlying, universal precepts. One comes to mind; the idea that we should do a good deed with no expectation of recognition or reward. This is the the same idea as the Jewish mitzvah. But if my Higher Power is the doorknob, as described in AA literature, (Big Book? I'm sure an AA policeman can help me out here), and yours is Elohim the Lord of Hosts, can we really have a conversation about what our Higher Power requires or provides?
I almost envy my agnostic and atheist brother and sister AAs. They don't have to navigate these theological tide pools.
I guess I'll just rely on my conscience?
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by SOBERINNEPA
Where the water gets muddy, in my opinion, is when AAs are invited to make ANYTHING their Higher Power. The famous doorknob, the AA group, the neighbor's cat. It leads to some muddled theological reasoning. For instance, I might talk about free will and grace. That may have no place in my brother AAs cosmology. If we're invited to "build" our Higher Power, what do we do when Christian or Jewish or Muslim concepts are introduced into the equation?
The doorknob deal can work......but I look it as "training wheels" on the bike of spiritual growth. Bob D (his stuff is awesome and it's all over XA speakers) had a sponsor who suggested he (Bob) use the doorknob and if he would the sponsor guaranteed a life-changing miracle would take place at once. So Bob laughingly said, "OK, I turn my life and will over to the care of the doorknob......what's the life-changing miracle?" The sponsor simply said,
"Bob, the miracle is that your life is no longer under the care and protection of an idiot." .......now, Bob laughed and said he had to agree. I dunno that many newcomers would be so cool about that one. LOL.
If nothing else though, the doorknob deal is practice with at least taking themselves out of the driver's seat. In time........they probably will 'come to believe'.....but it'll be in their time and God's time. Who knows....maybe the doorknob is enough of a HP for some ppl. It wouldn't be for me I don't think but that's just my opinion as it relates to me. I used a therapist for a HP for a while.....used a girlfriend as a HP for a while.....used the group for a while......used the steps for a LONG while......and finally started coming to grips with a personal God of my understanding. Those other "HP's" certainly didn't keep me from working the steps......which was a lot better than NOT working them.
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