susanlauren

I posted the following statement on one of the threads:

"I then started. Following the direction I was being given. Taking the actions that I was being instructed to take. Doing these things whether I wanted to or not. Doing these things whether I liked it or not. Doing these things whether I thought they would work or not. Doing these things whether I agreed with them or not."

Someone wrote to me and said: "This is really good stuff. It is almost a program in itself. May I suggest you start a thread based on this?"


Spiritual principles: Does it matter whether we want to do them? Whether we like doing them? Whether we think they will work? Whether we agree with them? Do any of these things matter with respect to their effectiveness and outcome? Susan

WakeUp

Susan,
Not sure if I'm understanding the question.
Do you mean those who don't want to do the 12 Steps?

Well, call me crazy, but before I walked into an AA meeting, I did like I always do with something new. I researched it on the Internet. So, I researched AA at aa.org and found out if I was going to go to these meetings, then the 12 Steps will be expected of me.

So, being the type A overacheiver that I am, I bought my Big Book on Amazon so I could have it before the meeting started, then I was chomping at the bit to do the Steps.
I was like "Steps, ok, what's these 12 Steps, let's get on with it."

nandm

[QUOTE=susanlauren;2998283]Spiritual principles:
I don't know that it matters as long as we have the willingness because without willingness why would anyone do them.
I did not like the soul searching and level of honesty the Steps required but I knew I had to get sober so I kept doing them.
I had no idea if it would work only the faces of AA members who had worked them showed me that they might. Even then I was unsure they would work for me.
If we don't agree with them they why would we try them in the first place. But I doubt agreeing with them is entirely necessary to do them.
It is sometimes in the process of doing the Steps that we learn we agree with, want, like, and find out they work. So ultimately I doubt the issues in the above questions ultimately matter in the outcome.

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion and experience

keithj

One of the truly wonderful things about AA is that the program is based in experience. My opinion of why it works, or whether it aligns with my pre-existing world view, is of little importance concerning it's effectiveness.

I can relate to those that want to decide a priori if the program is right for them. It's like I want to establish my spiritual beliefs, and then decide if the 12 Steps will accommodate them. That's all unnecessary and counter productive in my experience. All I really have to do, is be convinced that the facts of my own experience indicate that I have not been successful at staying sober, and that 'those people' got sober by taking these actions.

I remember getting up off my knees after an awkward mumbling of the 3rd Step prayer with my first sponsor. I was filled with dread and despair, felt nothing, and just knew that this thing would never work for me. But, there I was, with nowhere else to turn. Accept spiritual help or go back to what had never worked.

I've seen many people take the Steps and get sober with really crappy motivation and intent. The spiritual awakening is the result of the Steps; it doesn't come before them so that I can then take the Steps.

Tommyh

Susan,It may depend on what stage of the process someone is in.Desire to first get sober is important.Desire plays an important part.After we have been thru the process,it really is none of my business if it will work or not,if I want to do something or not,agree with it or not,or even like it,it is my business to follow the leading of the Spirit and do it and leave the results up to God.That other stuff is ego stuff which stands in the way of Faith and Works as we know it in AA.It can hinder my spiritual life and growth.Remember chapter 4 and over near the end of the chapter it talks about reason?I can reason my way out of Faith and get to thinking,naaa,this cannot work,I know A better way,my way and I am back trying to run the show again, I will be back playing God again.
just to the extent we do as we think God wants us to do, He will enable us to match calamity with serenity

susanlauren

I began the steps with the worst of motivations. I had a raging resentment against AA. I had vowed to myself I would never go back. I didn't want any part of it. I imagine outright rejection of something far surpasses not liking, not wanting, not believing in and/or not agreeing with. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago where I told all of you every single thing I thought was wrong with AA, on the twelve step discussion forum no less. Sigh.

The problem was, however, that I was in serious trouble. I had a problem that I couldn't solve. And it certainly wasn't for lack of trying or lack of wanting. I was literally plagued with the mental obsession around alcohol and drinking. I was on the edge of relapse. I was a living breathing example of the bedevilments. I was abstinent from alcohol and suffering from untreated alcoholism. I was miserable.

That was the state of mind with which I began working the steps.

I did not believe that this thing would work. I couldn't see how it could work. It made no logical sense to me that there would be any correlation between the actions in the steps and finding relief and release from alcoholism. Nonetheless, I did as I was being instructed to do. The first glimmer of real hope came as I began work on my inventory. Suddenly, the obsession I had been plagued with was gone. I did not want to drink.

That, in itself, was a miracle. I began to think that maybe, just maybe, these folks were right and that this thing might actually work. And it might actually work for me. I became curious. If a mere beginning (I had just started my inventory) can create that profound of a result, then what else can this thing do for me? Where else can this thing take me? I didn't know, but I had become quite interested in finding out.

I am currently working on amends with the goal of having them all completed by the end of this month. I am practicing the daily disciplines of steps 10, 11 and 12. I am a new person inside. The difference is night and day. I have an artesian spring of gratitude that bubbles up on its own accord from deep within. That resentment I had against AA has been replaced with thankfulness for the gift of AA's simple spiritual program.

I truly believe I have been given a prescription for a miracle.
Susan

CarolD

When I fell into AA I had no idea what the process was to be...but when
I read Steps 2 and 3 on the wall...Wow! I knew that AA was where I belonged....

Grateful I was correct.

susanlauren

I had a remarkable insight on Saturday afternoon. I would like to share it with all of you. There has been one amend that I had really been struggling with making. I have prayed, prayed, and prayed some more for willingness to follow through with it.

I was in the midst of prayer when the thought came to me. "I can't keep myself sober. I trust God for my sobriety. In essence, I trust God with my life. If I trust God with my life, is there anything that I cannot trust Him with?"

As soon as that thought came, any and all resistance I had about making this amend evaporated. Vanished entirely. In its place was willingness; I had become completely willing. This life on a spiritual basis is absolutely amazing.

I feel like a kid in a candy store. The Spirit of the Universe has a spiritual candy shop.
Susan

keithj

I think this gets to the point of Susan's post. I don't necessarily have to read that stuff on the wall, or read about the Steps, and think, 'wow, that's for me.'

In fact, I had the exact opposite reaction to 'coming to believe' and 'making a decision'. I felt, 'wow, that is absolutely not where I belong'. And it didn't matter. I took the actions, and I got the promised result. I didn't have to be in agreement or 'spiritually minded' before the results of the Steps were openly available to me. All I had to be was desperately willing to seek a solution to a problem that had me hopelessly defeated.

Boleo

For me, doing the things that I expected would never work was a big part of my road to recovery. For 3 years, I followed only those directions that made sense to me or that I expected to work. Even though that that was about 95% of the directions that I was given, none of them helped.

Finally, I got desperate enough to give in and do something that sounded completely crazy, wouldn't you know, it lead to a spiritual awakening. Since then, it has been the things that seem to be absurd, that have helped me the most. Maybe what Soren Kierkegaard said about faith is true:

"The highest level of faith is trust in the absurd".

yeahgr8

I certainly didn't want to do them and sometimes when i have a choice or decision to make now obviously i lean towards what i have always decided to do but i do have new options now that didn't seem like choices before...this doesn't mean i am going to like them and a lot of the time i don't but when i do them i am always pleasantly "surprised" by the outcome...so no quite frankly, to the alcoholic and me, who gives a **** if you like it or not, think it will work or agree with it...do what you have to do, look for something else that you think might work for you or go back to your old life!

I had a great conversation the other day with someone about just "judge" people on their actions and you will be ok, it doesn't matter what they tell you they are going to do, what they think they might do etc...now thanks to the solution of AA, most of the time, i am a stand up, reliable, trustworthy, responsible individual in most people's eyes...who wouldn't want that for the sake of following a few "guidelines"!

CarolD

Perhaps the difference is I already had the faith in God when I entered AA...

Drinking got me side tracked...not faithless at all.
Seeing God mentioned in AA tickled me..I had no idea that was part of AA.

By daily connection to God and living in the steps...my spiritual life has grown and been enriched....

susanlauren

Carol,
I imagine that existing faith in God helped a lot when it came to working the AA program. You probably didn't have to struggle with a concept of a Higher Power -- that foundation stone was already in place. From what you have said in some other posts, it sounds as if going to AA was a journey home to your God and to your faith. They say that the spirituality of the twelve steps helps to deepen one's existing religious faith. It sounds as if that was also true for you. Good stuff.
Susan

DayTrader

Same for me Keith.
I didn't believe the 2nd half of step 1 for me.....and was sketchy on the first half.

I believed #2.....but only for everyone BUT me.

#3 and 4 I wasn't going to do

5 I'd do.....but it would be from my head, not paper.

6 seemed like a non-step, nothing to it....so I'd do that one and 7 seemed easy enough so I'd do it too.

Wasn't going to write out 8....and didn't believe in the "all" at the end

Would do part of 9.....but only the ones I felt I needed to do.

10, 11 and 12 were ok......but I wasn't going to be some AA service person......devoting my life to AA.


.....amazing that I made it. ......amazing that my judgement changed. ....amazing that I went on to do all the stuff I said I wasn't EVER going to do.

/.willingness is a gift.\ -- it sure didn't come from me.

Tommyh

it sure didn't come from me

dt,right,me too man
the HP was there all along in my case,from the low bottom I hit, he brought me up out of it
and saved me from destruction

doert444

If I waited for a good attitude or pleasant feeling to follow the directon of AA I would of never made a start. I was beat into AA and I was willing as only the dying can be. I resented the fact that my life had come to this but they said, "make coffee, setup the meeting and listen." I had real problems with the law and courts, lost my job and the family was disgusted and I walk into AA and they tell me to shake hands of those entering the meeting...did they not hear of what I am dealing with. But so it is with the spirit, Gods thoughts are not our thoughts and He was waiting to see if I would humble myself and allow Him to work through the people He had placed in my life. I always believed if my mind got right my life would straighten out, but that obsession for a drink was all consuming I could not begin to think right. So I walk into AA and they tell me I can not think my way into right action but I can act my way into right thinking and so it is. Like Bill says, "common sense would thus become uncommon sense" I did what they did so I could have what they had, I think someone wrote,"they gave me a prescription for a miracle." and so I have found it to be true!

Eddiebuckle

In my case, when I quit drinking I was told very early on that I needed to bring three things to the deal: honesty, openess, and willingness. I was desperate enough that I gave it my best in terms of those three things. In retrospect I think I did pretty well in honesty and willingness, but not so much in openess.

I was also told that there was a distinction between abstinence and sobriety. As I understood it, abstinence was merely not drinking, and sobriety was being happy with not drinking. I didn't get that - it sure seemed like "they" were saying that if I didn't follow the steps and do things "their way" I was likely doomed to fail, or at the minimum be miserable not drinking. That came across as rather cult-ish to me.

Then there was the real sticking point - the whole God thing. It started with step two; it seemed childish to think that a HP (which could be ANYTHING, this doorknob, my homegroup, "the spirit of the universe", etc.) would restore myself to sanity. Excuse me? I'm not insane. And if you seriously think that I am going to believe that the great pumpkin is going to save me from a physiological addiction, you're the one who needs a shrink.

So after my six weeks inpatient treatment, I headed home feeling rather good about my sobriety, how well I had done, and how much better I was. I was back in my home where I live alone, the scene of the crime so to speak, and I freaked. Cravings, anxiety, and fear... the nights were the worst. I would wake up at 2 or 3am, absolutely dying for a drink.

So I went to meetings. I had no intention of doing the suggested 90 meetings in 90 days. Are you kidding me? I have a life! But being unemployed, and having no better idea how to deal with what I was feeling, I did follow the suggestions, found a sponsor that had over two decades of sobriety, and did what I was told. And I was honest - told him about my doubts, scepticism of this HP stuff, prayer, blah blah. He told me to pray every day. If when I went to bed I remembered that I had not prayed, he told me to say thanks for another day sober. In the first year, I went to over 350 meetings. And stayed sober.

Next week I will hit 18 months. What surprises me the most is that somehow I got from there to here. I was on a journey that brought me to a place I didn't even know existed. There were plenty of times that I did not want, like, agree with, or even think the things I was doing were going to work. But I did them anyway. I owe a debt of gratitude to Michael C in Greensboro NC for doing an extraordinary job of cat herding over those months.

Music

I wanted to stop drinking. That's all that mattered to me. And, nothing was "expected" of me. I never felt pressured to do anything. The choice was mine. It has to be that way because if I do these things for anyone else but me, it has an impact on the effectiveness and outcome.

Kjell

Hi all-

Maybe I had the gift of desperation, but I didn't question too much.

Not to say I did everything I was told or even that I did everything to the best of my ability, but for the most part, I just did it.

Guess I was beat to hell enough to listen and admit defeat.

Kjell~

BadCompany

A religious backround doesn't always smooth out the bumps. I had a strong religious upbringing and it was a bright spot in an otherwise horrible childhood. It didn't help much at all. The problem I had was that I had become spiritually stagnant. I knew what I knew and that was that. I was in just as bad a fix as the staunch atheist in that you couldn't tell either of us anything. The problem for both of us was that the answer to this predicament is God and we both believed we already had the answer to all things God. My inability to stay sober, manage my life or even be happy was the anomaly that drove me to madness for a long time in early sobriety.

Just like the atheist I had to set aside my preconceptions and allow myself to move foreward out of the ditch I had driven myself into.

In the end it wasn't a homecoming, I found myself far beyond what I thought was possible.