SashaMB

Yesbutnobutyes' "Obsession" thread really got me thinking about this, but I didn't want to totally hijack that thread, so I started this one.

I have never been a stick-my-head-in-the-sand sort of person, so when I started to recognize AH's excessive drinking as a serious problem, I wanted to address the issue right away. So I read, and I learned, and I found this site and now I feel like I've learned a lot in a short period of time. I started paying closer attention to AH's drinking and other behaviors to determine the extent of the problem. Now, a couple of months later, I don't know that I could tell you the extent of the problem, but I can definitely say that his drinking is a problem for me.

Recognizing my ever-frustrating lack of a crystal ball, I obviously don't know when or if AH will choose to stop drinking. But I do know it's a problem for me. So, the opposite of denial is recognition and acknowledgment, right? AH says he doesn't have a problem, so I find myself just a tad obsessed with proving that he does have a problem. It's still early days, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to be able to ever prove to AH that he has a problem. Yet, I find myself hyper focused on how much he's drinking. He brought home a 24-pack this weekend, and every time I go into the kitchen I feel the need to check how many are gone. (He's up to 13, but whose counting...) Is my fixation a part of the pay-attention, wait-and-see-how-it-goes, or is it morphing into codependency?

It seems to me like obsession with the problem is the opposite of denial. How does one find a balance? I was just re-reading part of Melody Beattie's "Co-dependent No More," but even as I was reading it, I really wanted to get up to check the fridge. This is definitely driving me batty, as I am a strong type-A personality, and I am having a hard time accepting that this is not a problem that I can overcome by convincing AH that I'm right. I KNOW he doesn't deal in logic or reason when it comes to alcohol, but that just seems to make it a bigger challenge to me to "prove" to him that it's a problem.

Lola1024

I think I can relate to some of what you are saying. My experience with this is that proving there is a problem to xabf was actually successful on one level only. He acknowledges the problem, knows the harm it does and still nothing changes. He chooses to continue to drink while fully admitting the problem. Game over. I still lost on that front. All my knowledge sharing with him didn't amount to change on his part - never will.

Over the years I have read many books, studied alcoholism, tried to understand it and the same with co-dependency. My problem was with taking action. All that knowledge was pretty useless until I learned to take care of myself and make some real changes in MY behavior. Paralysis by analysis is a big issue for me. Still is when I let my mind go there.

veryregretful

This is another good thread.

My AH used to admit he was an alcoholic. Now he doesn't have a drinking problem. He thinks because he stays downstairs he doesn't have a problem because he is not around us.

I am obsessed with whether he does have a problem or is it in my mind. I obviously know the answer is "yes" he does have a problem. If he didn't have a problem drinking why would he pass out at the kitchen table, why would he pee himself when passed out, why would he yell, scream, belittle me. Why would he isolate himself from his own kids. Why won't he get a job and stick with it. Because he is an alcoholic.

The best part is before he left he said he doesn't have a problem, he is a happy drunk. Yeah okay. He's disallusional.

Eight Ball

I relate a lot to your thread and its early days for me too. At the start before I found Al-anon and this site, I would regulary go out to his beer fridge and count his beers or the number of empties and even kept an excel spreadsheet of all the money he was spending at the off licence. I was begging with him to cut down, counting the number of beers in the fridge and just hearing the back door opening several times a night (where his beer fridge is) made my stomach churn. The only person we harm is ourselves when we become that obsessed with their drinking. Its getting your head around the 3 c's that helped with that one and realising that it doesnt matter what you do, he wont change unless he wants to. I do still notice how often my AH drinks but feel as if I have stopped obsessing about his drinking now and feel indifferent to it. I still see the money coming out of the joint account but now for every dollar he spends on beer, I put the same amount away into my own emergency savings account. I think I know deep down that I am going to have to leave him eventually for my own peace of mind.

I still occasionally question in my head whether my AH is an alcoholic or just a problem drinker, he claims that he is not an alcoholic and just likes to drink beer but the more I read the more I know that he definitely is. I relate so much to what people say on this site and his drinking/behaviours definitely causes a lot of friction in the marriage.

That makes sense to me, I never thought of it like that and helps me to put my reading/studying into perspective.

All my reading is making me feel very sad at the moment, due to the fact that it is finally sinking in that our marriage is doomed as long as he continues to drink and there is nothing that I can do to stop him from drinking. I was choosing to read the books because I wanted to 'learn' how to live with an alcholic, detach and look after myself, but the realisation for me is finding out that it wont be enough for me. I have spent 22 years of marriage, trying to 'strive' for a healthy happy communicative relationship and failed. I now have a reason for that failure and the truth is, whilst my husband continues to drink, I am never going to have a happy communicative relationship with him.

SashaMB

Lola, thank you for your perspective, I'm not surprised to hear that convincing him that it was a problem still didn't change anything. My AH initially vehemently denied that he had a problem with alcohol. Now, 2 months later, he is willing to say that in retrospect he did have a problem, but that it's "taken care of" now. In his mind, the solution is that he will respect my feelings while doing what he wants to do, i.e. drink. I think he believes that since he now acknowledges that I don't like he's drinking that the issue is somehow resolved. I like your term "analysis paralysis." Where I am anxious is that I feel like I really want to do something now, not wait and see. But I feel obligated to wait and see before making a really big decision.

Veryregretful, the whole just drinking in another part of the house is also AH's latest tactic. I told him I won't be around him when he's drinking, so he simply goes to the basement or his office to drink. He's also gotten somewhat more stealthy in that he will throw away the cans in his office or the basement rather than the main garbage in the kitchen. He actually acts like he believes that I don't know he's drinking.

Partly, I think the obsessing about how much and how often is what I need to know to justify a major decision, such as leaving. I know I'm not happy, but I don't want to make a threat that I'm not prepared to carry out. Honestly, even if I did say quit drinking or I'm leaving and then he did quit, I wouldn't be comfortable that it would be permanent. I hate feeling like I'm waiting for something bad (or worse) to happen to justify my not wanting to live with this. Does waiting for it to get better ever actually work? It seems unlikely, and it seems like I might as well just be a denier if that's my game plan.

I am really looking hard at how to change my behavior and my reactions. But if the answer is to just do my own thing, live my own life, ignore him, then what is the point of being married? And, honestly, I like who I am, but I'm scared I will become someone I don't like if I stick around.

SashaMB

Oh, I totally have an excel spreadsheet of number of drinks, dates, weekly totals, and money spent (as much as I can tell).

I can relate to the idea of feeling like a failure for contemplating the idea of NOT sticking around because of the alcohol. I guess that kind of conflicts with the 3 Cs. If we didn't cause it, and we can't fix it, why are we so prepared to own the alcohol as OUR failure? On the other hand, everyone has struggles and weaknesses, and I don't want to be the kind of wife who just takes off the minute things get hard. But as much as I feel I should help AH with this, he doesn't want my help. As far as he's concerned, I'm the one with the problem (which is kind of true).

veryregretful

As far as my AH is concerned, I am the one with the mental problem. I'm the reason my daughter was a cutter, why she is depressed. He says I'm miserable so he drinks. I was in the basement looking for something else someone told me about and found a few huge empty whiskey bottles hidden in the closet. Usually he just drinks beer but when I saw the whiskey bottles I was like this is getting way out of control. He was helping a friend do work around their house. He was staying there cuz it was a ride. They told me he was putting the whiskey in his morning coffee. He used to do that before. While he was away there was no stress or tension here. My point I think is that I knew what my answer was but was afraid to do anything about it. I have thrown him out a couple times before and always felt guilty so he ended up back home.

This time I was told he was doing coke/crack and I confronted him and asked him if he was doing it and he (no lie) denied for about 2 minutes then came upstairs and packed his bag and left. I think that tells me he was doing drugs also. IMO, I don't think he has a problem with coke/crack but because of his drinking if it is available he is going to do it. So anyways, it was he who decided to leave and for me it is relief. I have no guilt with him leaving. I don't feel abandanded (sp).

I never wanted to give him a threat like stop drinking or leave because I would feel reallly bad about myself when he left. While he was living here he would say "why don't you just throw me out". He wanted me to do it. So he could blame me. I figured that out. Now since he left on his own. He can't blame anyone but himself. I didn't throw him out. It's all in how they perceive things.

I know this post is jumbled. I'm exhausted.

I do know that I will sleep good tonight because I know that I am doing the right thing by my kids by not begging him to come back.

My son seems much more relaxed now. Even though it's only been like 4 days since he has been gone I see him smiling more and talking more. My daughter, may take a little longer because she is depressed and doesn't know how to express her feelings. She has cut to try and get the pain out. So tomorrow is her therapy day so she can talk to therapist about her dad leaving and maybe she will soon work through it.

I think she is afraid I will take him back which I have done before. I have to remember these kids are the world to me and thier lives are just beginning. If he is to come home, well he has to have at least a very long time of sobriety and working a program before I even think to let him back in. So for now, it's the three of us and I'm perfectly fine with that. Wasn't even like I was married when he was here so what's the difference.

Good night all before I babble more and my posts get harder to understand.

sesh

I also believe the key issue here is action, or the lack of it.
I've spent years switching from denial (it is not so bad) to obssesion ( crazy desire to prove it all, to him, to have him aknowledge what I already knew even without spying on him or counting his drinks). I find now, the problem with all that was that all of that was about him, none if it was about me. For some reason I needed to believe what I'm doing is what every normal person would do. That way being normal was just an excuse. It meant I can't to do anything: I'm stuck in this horrible life, it is not up to me, it is him that needs to see and change.
But I found out obssesion is a dangerous game, especially when we are obssesing about something we already know inside and out. By looking for that final proof ( for us to finally have enough) I believe we are doing nothing but pushing that limit further. As all along we know what we need to do, but we don't want to do it, so we keep obssesing as an substitude to real action. So that way obssesion is part of a denial too, IMO, as we are using it to prove something we already know.
When I think about all that now, I know I did it because it was easier for me, it was easier to cry and make it all about him, than to take responsibity for my own life and act accoringly. They say recovery is, among other things, about 3A: awareness, acceptance and action. Obssesion is distaraction that we create in the middle so we don't have to act. Action is the hardest IMO. It requires being honest, to ourselves and others. it requires standing our own ground and being strong. Making that hard choice. As there is always a choice.
But also, the truth is we can't make it until we are ready. I found in my life, I got ready only when I started to be honest with myself, when I decided it is time I dig deep and find out what exactly in me is making me stuck, try accept the unaccpetable. I challenged myself, my fears, my defence mechanisms, my life paradigms, every single thing that was making me who I am/was. Only when I did that, as I kept changing myself, I was becoming able to react in a appropriate way to my life circumstances, mostly my AH's drinking.
ONly than I discovered the boundaries I had were not making me happy because they were not my real boundaries. I'd say things like: I don't want to be around him when he is drinking. But that wasn't completely true. The truth was I didn't want to have husband that is an A.
So, my point is it doesn't get better until we make it better for ourselves. By caring for ourselves, respecting ourselves and our own needs and making those hard choices.
At least, that is my experience.

Eight Ball

Thanks Sesh - your post was really honest and enlightening.

I have read recently that codependants find it hardest of all to leave or seperate from a partner as codependants are so entwined with their partners that it would be like loosing part of ourselves. They get so scared that they usually go back and I would say that this is probably true about me but I am working on it.

I think I have said this before: I feel like a giant jumbled up ball of wool, slowly picking at and unravelling the mess that has been caused by living with an alcoholic but also knowing there will be that relief when in the final stages you can see the entagled bit at the end of the ball coming to an end.. I am still working on the tangled bit for now but definitely still picking!

JenT1968

I think for me, both denial and obsession are co-dependent traits, because both are other-focussed.

I swung between both, although at the start I didn't think he was an alcoholic, that was just because it didn't occur to me, we both drank lots, he was often erratic and irresponsible and mean and lied and lost jobs, I was by no means perfect either, but I assumed that as we got older, had more responsibilities that he would drink less too, after-all I did. My denial was never of the kind where I beleived he didn't have a problem, but more that I was unsure I had sufficiently proved it to label it a definite problem, to defend against me being over-critical. I had spreadsheets, I tracked alcohol consumption, I hid and counted bottles, I was trying to prove to myself and sometimes him, that what I percieved was "true" and a fair assessment.

I read about alcoholism, and alcoholics, and heavy drinkers and codependents and married him and had 2 children, and tried to explain, cajole, nag, support him into seeing my truth about his problem.

I'm not sure if all that proving his problem to myself, and the extent of it was helpful, or was a diversionary tactic. It led me to be where I am today, which is happy (and without him as a partner), but it took 10 long years and a lot of wreckage.

If right at the beginning I had looked at the things I have highlighted in red up there, and questioned why on earth I was in a relationship with someone who did those things, when those things are not acceptable to me, I would have saved myself a lot of pain. In the end it doesn't matter if he is clinically an alcoholic, a heavy drinker, a sociopath, a narssicist, chronically depressed, or whatever. What matters is that I was prepared to "put up with" behaviour that I was desperately unhappy about within a relationship, instead of getting the hell out of dodge when it was easy. That was my real denial, it was about me.

nodaybut2day

Ah, your own post has the answers. Nice.

What is the point of being married to someone you basically avoid all the time because he's blotto? Do you deserve and WANT more than this? I assume so...What's the next step then?

I also went through the obsession/denial (as in questioning my own sanity) phase, to the point where it was all I thought about. I don't recall when exactly, but at some point it hit me: is THIS what my life would amount to? Constantly trying to prove that I was right to someone whose feet were firmly planted in NeverNever Land? There was no satisfaction nor was there happiness in that. At some point, instead of saying "i just can't do this anymore", I started saying "I just WON't do this anymore".

In the end, it didn't matter whether he was a functional alcoholic, or whether he had a problem or whether he was a pink spotted cow. All that mattered is that I was unhappy and that I wanted out.

SashaMB

Sesh, thank you so much for your post! Your point about boundaries really resonated with me. I have told AH that I don't want to be around him when he's drinking, which is a boundary that I can control, which is why I chose it. The truth is, like you, my real boundary is that I don't want to have an alcoholic husband. I can also control that boundary, but that's a much bigger action. Either he gets sober (not likely), or I leave. There's really no sugar coating it; that's the reality.

NewChapter

Such wisdom here! You all have described the process we go through so well...as only someone who has been there can do.

Noday: I liked your comment about trying to convince someone you are right when their feet are planted elsewhere. I pounded that brick wall for a l o n g t i m e...and got nowhere, of course. He even shouted, during a drunken tirade listing all the ways I had ruined his life, that, "you just want to be right" and "I won't let you be right." So he won't get help, because that would make me right. He won't address his alcoholism, depression, because that would make me right. It wasn't enough that he had an affair with a secretary, his law partners dissolved the partnership and kicked him out, he can't find a job, his 4 young adult kids won't speak to him, he has lost all his friends....as long as I am not right.

The divorce (that he wanted!) was final one month ago. It is the nicest thing he has ever done for me! There is life on the other side (even at 53!) and I feel better than I have in decades. I know who I am, and yes, I did feel myself begin to change in a bad way, becoming convinced by his constant rewriting of history and crazy-making behavior, that I couldn't put 2 sentences together. Now I'm still working at the law firm that kicked him out, I make presentations to other mid-life divorced women, and have lots more to do.

It isn't worth it to try to convince them of anything. They are incapable. If anything, as in my case, it makes them more determined to prove us wrong and less likely to get help.

Be true to yourself, to your kids, and know that life without the constant dealing with or thinking about the A can be freeing. And if he came back tomorrow, realizing what he threw away, I would tell him that I'm not the same girl and I have no interest in going back to that life.

Thanks for all the strength on SR that has helped me to get to this point.

veryregretful

This really is a great thread because I always thought I needed to prove he was an alcoholic and I didn't want him to drink. In all actuallity I don't want to be with him. Ever. He has been gone 5 days and no stress here. Of course I don't like being 'alone', but it's alot better than waiting for what mood he will be in, when the next fight would be, etc.

It was actually nice today to have my daughter sit at the kitchen table with me and have dinner. She hasn't done that in a long time.

I just need the strength to follow through and not let the codi out and have him come home because I 'need' him.

In a way it made it easier because he chose to leave. I have no guilt in him not being here now. I didn't throw him out. Didn't give him an ultimatum. He packed and left and I didn't beg for him to stay.

I do have a plan for the future and it doesn't include him. Only as the father to my children and even with that I don't think he will step up to the plate.

Thank you