Tradition 1
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Tradition 1
There was a thread in the Newcomer's Forum that was getting defocused into an AA discussion. Instead of derailing that further, I'd thought I'd post here instead.
I hear a lot of reference to the Traditions from people that don't want to follow the directions in the Big Book. There seems to be a tendency to use them as cover for working one's own program instead of working the AA program.
Our Traditions give us that freedom to work any program I want. But they do not give us the freedom to pretend that something other than what's in the BB is the AA program. In fact, they guard against that.
In all the siting of 'the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking' and 'each group should be autonomous', where is the relation to Tradition 1?
Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.-short form
Where is the unity in 'you do things your way, I'll do things my way'?
There is no 'my way'. I did not write down a program of recovery that works for most every alcoholic that is willing to follow the directions.
Are we unified in a common solution? Or does following AA Tradition mean that we sit in the same room and all do whatever we want?
That's how I'm hearing some of this reference to the Traditions. Our Traditions give us freedom to call anything I want AA? I thought the Traditions were written to protect AA from our own self-will run riot by setting down some operating guidelines for our own affairs.
Just looking for thoughts and feedback in a more appropriate forum. Thanks.
I hear a lot of reference to the Traditions from people that don't want to follow the directions in the Big Book. There seems to be a tendency to use them as cover for working one's own program instead of working the AA program.
Our Traditions give us that freedom to work any program I want. But they do not give us the freedom to pretend that something other than what's in the BB is the AA program. In fact, they guard against that.
In all the siting of 'the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking' and 'each group should be autonomous', where is the relation to Tradition 1?
Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.-short form
Where is the unity in 'you do things your way, I'll do things my way'?
There is no 'my way'. I did not write down a program of recovery that works for most every alcoholic that is willing to follow the directions.
Are we unified in a common solution? Or does following AA Tradition mean that we sit in the same room and all do whatever we want?
That's how I'm hearing some of this reference to the Traditions. Our Traditions give us freedom to call anything I want AA? I thought the Traditions were written to protect AA from our own self-will run riot by setting down some operating guidelines for our own affairs.
Just looking for thoughts and feedback in a more appropriate forum. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by 24hrsAday 
if i Only Work Step#1 Perfectly Can i Still Stay Sober? i Do Have a Honest Desire To Remain Sober..
Originally Posted by AA BB 1st
At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail.
Draw your own conclusions.
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Originally Posted by keithj
Here is what AA says about that, 24. Not what I say, but what AA says.
Very clear and very precise. A desire to stop drinking is not going to keep the real alcoholic sober. That's the collective wisdom of the AA experience.
Draw your own conclusions.
Very clear and very precise. A desire to stop drinking is not going to keep the real alcoholic sober. That's the collective wisdom of the AA experience.
Draw your own conclusions.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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It's all in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous... That is AA. Period. No need to philosophize, split hairs, argue the pros and cons... if it's in there, it's AA... if it's not in there, it may be useful, interesting, valuable... but it ain't AA.
I take tradition 1 as a personal responsibility... to AA unity. It is my responsibility to pass it forward, the program, the message... only that.
I don't speak for AA though, no one does, no one can or should. I can speak to my own experience... and that's all. If I am at a meeting or in this forum, I try to limit my discussion of my own experience in the program, how it effects me, my struggles, etc...
The problem as I see it is, when discussing AA in a public forum, that it must be attraction and not promotion... is enforcement promotion? or is it maintaining the integrity of a life saving and life giving program so it is there for anyone who wants it.
Yet another paradox? IDK, your thoughts keith...
I take tradition 1 as a personal responsibility... to AA unity. It is my responsibility to pass it forward, the program, the message... only that.
I don't speak for AA though, no one does, no one can or should. I can speak to my own experience... and that's all. If I am at a meeting or in this forum, I try to limit my discussion of my own experience in the program, how it effects me, my struggles, etc...
The problem as I see it is, when discussing AA in a public forum, that it must be attraction and not promotion... is enforcement promotion? or is it maintaining the integrity of a life saving and life giving program so it is there for anyone who wants it.
Yet another paradox? IDK, your thoughts keith...
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Originally Posted by Mark75
that it must be attraction and not promotion... is enforcement promotion? or is it maintaining the integrity of a life saving and life giving program so it is there for anyone who wants it.
Where does that attraction not promotion line come from? Tradition 11, talking about our public relations policy and the need for anonymity at the level of press, radio, and film. That's a far cry from enthusiastically promoting our common solution within the rooms of AA meetings. Kind of crazy, isn't it? Catching flak for promoting AA within AA?
Tradition 1 is clear about what is more important between AA unity and personal recovery. What I usually hear is the opposite. AA unity is thrown under the wheels of the bus as long as each individual is personally sober in their own way.
We get all apologetic and feel rude for standing up for the Traditions so that AA will be around for the next guy.
What I think I hear in the rooms is that AA unity can go to hell as long as I get to stay sober today. Maybe I'm hearing things wrong. It's happened before.
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Well, it is our responsibility, IMHO, to promote AA within the rooms... no question... and folks like yourself who have a good understanding of the program, who incorporate it into your daily lives ... folks like yourself who make no excuses for passing on the true and clear message of AA... are critical to the future of AA. And for this recovered alcoholic.... with 2 weeks shy of two years... I need to hear what you have to say. Thanx for saying it!!
It is the beauty of a true and vital spiritual awakening that keeps us coming back... watered down AA makes that less of a possibility because some may never hear the message they need to hear to have that experience... I know that, you know that... It's right there in Tradition 1 and 5... Unity yes, but the primary purpose of an AA group is to carry... it's message!! Which message?? ... The 12 steps, for crying out loud.....
But it seems like, sometimes, defending AA from those that would gut the program and come up with some other program... defending AA ends up making one look rigid and uptight... when nothing, really, is further from the truth...
Paradox?
Keep doing what you do keithj... I am always "all ears".
Mark
It is the beauty of a true and vital spiritual awakening that keeps us coming back... watered down AA makes that less of a possibility because some may never hear the message they need to hear to have that experience... I know that, you know that... It's right there in Tradition 1 and 5... Unity yes, but the primary purpose of an AA group is to carry... it's message!! Which message?? ... The 12 steps, for crying out loud.....
But it seems like, sometimes, defending AA from those that would gut the program and come up with some other program... defending AA ends up making one look rigid and uptight... when nothing, really, is further from the truth...
Paradox?
Keep doing what you do keithj... I am always "all ears".
Mark
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Originally Posted by Mark75
And for this recovered alcoholic.... with 2 weeks shy of two years...
You know, no one is going to gut the AA program, and no one even wants to. All every body there wants to do is stay sober. And even the person I most disagree with, generally has the best intentions in their heart.
Yeah, I guess I am disturbed by this. I seem to have no problem with someone outside of AA doing whatever they feel they need to do to get sober. Have at it, brother. I know I sure did.
But people who supposedly owe their lives to this simple program, like I do, advising newcomers to not work the program like it's outlined in the book? To find their own way of working it?
Geez. Sounds like there was no point writing it down to begin with.
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Originally Posted by keithj
What I think I hear in the rooms is that AA unity can go to hell as long as I get to stay sober today.
the thing I take exception with is someone saying stuff that's contradictory to the program yet inscinuating that what they're doing/saying is valid because "they're IN AA." To make matters worse, when someone calls them out on it and suggests that what they're doing isn't really AA, or isn't by the book.......and out comes the butthurt.
"our COMMON solution" anything other than our common solution is a different solution....and therefore by default, not AA. Does that mean some other way won't work, of course not! ....it's just not part of THE AA program.
If someone does yoga to remove the mental obsession and it works.....cool - but it's not AA
Someone decides every day to not drink and it works.....fine again, but it's not AA
And you're partially right 24...closed meetings are open to anyone with a desire to stop drinking - but don't be so shocked when what you're saying is described for what it is..... NOT AA. and that's ok.. I do plenty of non-AA stuff..... but I don't post about it and claim it's AA or in line with the program of AA
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
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Hmm....
I do consider the Traditions are vital to keep AA moving forward.
I also think they apply more to how we conduct our groups
than how they apply to new members.
If no one comes in our doors....we sure can't show them the
solution. Ergo....."the only requirement for membership is a
desire to quit drinking" is paramount to AA's growth.
Just saying....
I do consider the Traditions are vital to keep AA moving forward.
I also think they apply more to how we conduct our groups
than how they apply to new members.
If no one comes in our doors....we sure can't show them the
solution. Ergo....."the only requirement for membership is a
desire to quit drinking" is paramount to AA's growth.
Just saying....
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I would like to think i understand the traditions to some extent...your point on the traditions being bent to suit the will of the group is spot on and very much my experience in the various countries that i have attended AA...not ALL meetings though!
At the very end of any discussion, by someone not working the solution, regarding the way a group should be run, the format and the focus is 'each group should be autonomous'...the perfect statement for that person/s to indugle in contempt before prior investigation.
I don't mean to sound negative and AA most definitely saved my life and i will continue to give back what i received so freely but the realisty of the situation is that recovered alcoholics are very much in the minority at the dozen or so different AA meetings i have attended on a fairly regular basis in the different countries...save, that is, for the odd strong meeting where the recovered boys and girls seem to gravitate to which are run as suggested with extremely strong sobriety...
Beyond traditions i often find myself explaining the various catchphrases that sit in the rooms like "Easy does it" which was meant for the alcoholic to be easy on the family not as an excuse to do sweet f-all work on themselves!
Like i said in the other thread i love the responsibility pledge and do believe that God is running the show, i keep showing up and keep working on myself and people will keep tapping me on the shoulder for help and i'll be able to help them.
Some of you would love the convos i have with my CBT counselor about AA and a possible restructure of the meetings etc to incorprate the social differences now as compared to the earlier days of AA...hes got a point but at the end of the day IMO, right now, its got to be the only desire for memebership is a desire to stop drinking and then the responsibility of the group/recovered ones to make sure that the meetings head in the right direction...sometimes easier said than done when you are outnumbered 20 to 1 though!
Just my thoughts:-)
At the very end of any discussion, by someone not working the solution, regarding the way a group should be run, the format and the focus is 'each group should be autonomous'...the perfect statement for that person/s to indugle in contempt before prior investigation.
I don't mean to sound negative and AA most definitely saved my life and i will continue to give back what i received so freely but the realisty of the situation is that recovered alcoholics are very much in the minority at the dozen or so different AA meetings i have attended on a fairly regular basis in the different countries...save, that is, for the odd strong meeting where the recovered boys and girls seem to gravitate to which are run as suggested with extremely strong sobriety...
Beyond traditions i often find myself explaining the various catchphrases that sit in the rooms like "Easy does it" which was meant for the alcoholic to be easy on the family not as an excuse to do sweet f-all work on themselves!
Like i said in the other thread i love the responsibility pledge and do believe that God is running the show, i keep showing up and keep working on myself and people will keep tapping me on the shoulder for help and i'll be able to help them.
Some of you would love the convos i have with my CBT counselor about AA and a possible restructure of the meetings etc to incorprate the social differences now as compared to the earlier days of AA...hes got a point but at the end of the day IMO, right now, its got to be the only desire for memebership is a desire to stop drinking and then the responsibility of the group/recovered ones to make sure that the meetings head in the right direction...sometimes easier said than done when you are outnumbered 20 to 1 though!
Just my thoughts:-)
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I'm not sure anyone is proposing limiting membership or disagreeing with the 3rd Tradition. A desire to stop drinking is the only requirement for AA membership, no debate. Well, maybe long form would say that being alcoholic is a requirement as well.
It's a membership requirement intended to be as inclusive as possible. You can have any other problem or undesirable quality in the world, and you are still welcome to our program of recovery.
The requirements for success in that recovery program are bit more involved.
It's a membership requirement intended to be as inclusive as possible. You can have any other problem or undesirable quality in the world, and you are still welcome to our program of recovery.
The requirements for success in that recovery program are bit more involved.
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The crux of tradition one is this idea that if one doesn't conform to spiritual principles, that person will wither and die because alcoholics have a hell of a time being dry. Without a spiritual awakening, a sober world is unbearable to the alcoholic, and they drink again. So, to me, this tradition has a built in safety net just as long as most everyone in the room is alcoholic.
However, an issue occurs when there are as many non-alcoholics as alcoholics. That safety net no longer works effectively because hard/social drinkers can stay dry without a spiritual awakening. They don't need to live according to spiritual principles, so why would they want to? They can take 'em or leave 'em. So this natural "weeding out" process gets stilted.
These traditions were written in the late 40's--the 1st tradition, for example, was published in a more condensed version in Grapevine, 1947 (See "Language of the Heart"). So, that's just a little over a decade after AA was formed, and less than a decade after the Bog Book was published. My point, I suppose, is that many members at that time went through a more formal qualification process. Most everyone in the meeting was alcoholic. And if someone wasn't, I bet an older member let them know. That rarely happens today. What's more likely to happen is a hard drinker convinces another hard drinker they're a real alcoholic.
Today, the only formal qualification process one might get is through a good sponsor. My sponsor qualified me. I didn't know that was what she was doing, but looking back, I know now. She wanted to make sure I was alcoholic. Not a hard drinker with a pill problem. Not a cokehead who enjoyed a few shots between lines.
Our common welfare is jeopardized when we neither share the common solution nor the same problem. We need both for this unity to work.
However, an issue occurs when there are as many non-alcoholics as alcoholics. That safety net no longer works effectively because hard/social drinkers can stay dry without a spiritual awakening. They don't need to live according to spiritual principles, so why would they want to? They can take 'em or leave 'em. So this natural "weeding out" process gets stilted.
These traditions were written in the late 40's--the 1st tradition, for example, was published in a more condensed version in Grapevine, 1947 (See "Language of the Heart"). So, that's just a little over a decade after AA was formed, and less than a decade after the Bog Book was published. My point, I suppose, is that many members at that time went through a more formal qualification process. Most everyone in the meeting was alcoholic. And if someone wasn't, I bet an older member let them know. That rarely happens today. What's more likely to happen is a hard drinker convinces another hard drinker they're a real alcoholic.
Today, the only formal qualification process one might get is through a good sponsor. My sponsor qualified me. I didn't know that was what she was doing, but looking back, I know now. She wanted to make sure I was alcoholic. Not a hard drinker with a pill problem. Not a cokehead who enjoyed a few shots between lines.
Our common welfare is jeopardized when we neither share the common solution nor the same problem. We need both for this unity to work.
It`s ok to stay sober
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Keith,the best any of us can do is to try and live in the Spirit of the Traditions.
They are not hard and fast rules.
About that 3rd tradition,any group can kick out a member if he/she endangers the group and continues to do so.The sickos hide behind the 3rd tradition saying,this is AA,you cannot kick me out.A lot of groups have been destroyed because they let these people continue to attend and hurt other members and intentionally cause trouble.I know people who got kicked out of meetings ,groups and clubs for misbehavior.One has since went on to sobriety and service work for over 20 yrs,including becoming a Area Delegate.I believe the long form of trad 3 says,.....those who wish to recover...
you and I know we recover by taking the 12 steps...maybe all groups would be better off if they studied and read the long form of the traditions.
my past sponsor who died recently used this phrase from the 50`s
AA members in good standing
speaking of Unity,our most prized possession,where is the Unity between those who feel AA is strictly the steps and thats all they support, and those who feel AA is the whole fellowship,steps,service work,and all?There is a separation there.
They are not hard and fast rules.
About that 3rd tradition,any group can kick out a member if he/she endangers the group and continues to do so.The sickos hide behind the 3rd tradition saying,this is AA,you cannot kick me out.A lot of groups have been destroyed because they let these people continue to attend and hurt other members and intentionally cause trouble.I know people who got kicked out of meetings ,groups and clubs for misbehavior.One has since went on to sobriety and service work for over 20 yrs,including becoming a Area Delegate.I believe the long form of trad 3 says,.....those who wish to recover...
you and I know we recover by taking the 12 steps...maybe all groups would be better off if they studied and read the long form of the traditions.
my past sponsor who died recently used this phrase from the 50`s
AA members in good standing
speaking of Unity,our most prized possession,where is the Unity between those who feel AA is strictly the steps and thats all they support, and those who feel AA is the whole fellowship,steps,service work,and all?There is a separation there.
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My experience has been that people who like to quote the short form of the 3rd tradition to defend not doing anything in AA or coming to AA identifying as anything other than an alcoholic, are the same people who will say stuff like this, " I don't need a sponsor, God is my sponsor". They are simply unwilling or perhaps unable to be accountable. I don't really know. Most have never sat through a traditions meeting or discussed the traditions with a recovered alcoholic and incorporated them into their lives. Here's a consideration. Does your group hold tradition meetings? if not, why not? Most folks have never even read the long form of the traditions, how can we expect them to know anything about them if we aren't teaching them. By the way, the first tradition is supported by the following 11 traditions, it is the foundation, so in my group if you want to do a little rant about drugs or some other non-sense, you may get a pass early on, but trust me, not for long, cause we know something, without singleness of purpose, it will only be a matter of time before unity is gone. An alcoholic must be able to identify with the common problem, and then be able to see the hope in a common solution. Keith, I wouldn't worry too much. Folks who don't realize that the only requirement for membership isn't the requirement to stay.......are, well, not around for very long
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Originally Posted by keithj
D. That's a far cry from enthusiastically promoting our common solution within the rooms of AA meetings. Kind of crazy, isn't it? Catching flak for promoting AA within AA?
.
.
" ....got a network of numbers to call...went to meetings every day...."
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Originally Posted by keithj
That's how I'm hearing some of this reference to the Traditions. Our Traditions give us freedom to call anything I want AA? I thought the Traditions were written to protect AA from our own self-will run riot by setting down some operating guidelines for our own affairs.
He had a resentment against AA because it did not help his parents stay sober for any significant length of time. However, he did try Al-Anon as he felt he was a victim of an alcoholic home.
Because of his foul-mouth and ill-temper, he was repeatedly thrown out of Al-Anon meetings. When he read the traditions he tried to use them as a
license to say anything he wanted in a meeting with diplomatic immunity.
Al-Anon finally told him "don't pull that crap here" and banned him permanently with threats of calling the cops on him if he came back.
Now he goes to AA meetings to tell newcomers he's been sober 30+ years without AA's help. He never had a sponsor or worked no stinkin steps and AA has a success rate less than 5%. When anyone in an AA try's to shut him up, he uses this quote from tradition 1 as a license to be Belligerent :
"No A.A. can compel another to do anything; nobody can be punished or expelled. Our Twelve Steps to recovery are suggestions; the Twelve Traditions which guarantee A.A.'s unity contain not a single "Don't." They repeatedly say "We ought..." but never "You must!"
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