Step 1: how patient?
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Step 1: how patient?
Denial continues: is it good to continue attending AA if you don’t think you are an alcoholic? My AW states she has an “alcohol problem”, but isn't an alcoholic ---what is that? I want an admission of alcoholism, because I know it is true. My AW wants to Control the drinking as opposed to trying to stop completely: is this a good step in the right direction?
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waterford MI
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by TheShire 
Denial continues: is it good to continue attending AA if you don’t think you are an alcoholic? My AW states she has an “alcohol problem”, but isn't an alcoholic ---what is that? I want an admission of alcoholism, because I know it is true. My AW wants to Control the drinking as opposed to trying to stop completely: is this a good step in the right direction?
Maybe you could find your own program and work on yourself.
Try Al-Anon for yourself. You will be able to take care of you.
The first step is the same for al-anon.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
Remember,
you did not cause her alcoholism.
you can not cure her alcoholism.
and you can not control her alcoholism.
have you read some of the stickies at the top of the page?
they are very helpful.
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 290
Hi Shire,
I think it can never hurt for an Alcoholic to attend AA. You never know, maybe one day someone says something and it clicks and she has an AHA moment!
Why do you need her to admit that she is an alcoholic right this moment? Is that going to change anything? My AH admits he's an alcoholic - does that mean he has quit? - no, does it mean he acknowledges that he can't do quit without help? - no, heck, I think he still believes he just needs to find the right tactic and then he will be able to control his drinking.
I personally don't think control drinking works for an A (at least from what I've seen from my AH). BUT, I think that your AW might need to find that out for herself - it is a lesson that she needs to experience, in order to understand - a lesson that can't just be taught. It might be a step in the right direction, if she realizes that she can't control her drinking.
I just re-read several posts that I had copied and pasted. Here's something anvilhead posted about denial a while back (maybe that helps):
How can we cope with denial in others?
In coping with denial in others, we need to:
* Have a great deal of patience in order to allow them the time it takes to finally confront their loss or problems.
* Be accepting of the denial as a psychological defense that is a vehicle for them to retain their sanity.
* Be careful in confronting them so that they don't run away or withdraw from reality even more.
* Be ready for their resistance in dealing with the truth about their loss and problems.
* Freely offer them our support and understanding.
* Accept them as they are, waiting to deal with the loss or problem until they are ready.
* Be ready with a rational perspective to help them refute their current irrational beliefs.
* Resist solving their problems for them; resist the desire to continue sheltering or protecting them from their loss or problems.
* Continue to let them know that there is support for them in dealing with the loss or problems. Let them face the existence of the loss or problem gently but continuously.
* Provide them with subtle means to face the problem by giving them magazine or newspaper articles, pamphlets or books on the subject; suggesting TV and radio programs on the subject, or proposing professional help.
* Recognize that if they are locked into a chronic state of denial, which is debilitating to their mental health, that a denial intervention may be necessary.
Hang in there - I know it can be really frustrating - but make sure you focus more on yourself and less on the recovery (or non-recovery) of your AW.
HUGS and all the best!!!
I think it can never hurt for an Alcoholic to attend AA. You never know, maybe one day someone says something and it clicks and she has an AHA moment!
Why do you need her to admit that she is an alcoholic right this moment? Is that going to change anything? My AH admits he's an alcoholic - does that mean he has quit? - no, does it mean he acknowledges that he can't do quit without help? - no, heck, I think he still believes he just needs to find the right tactic and then he will be able to control his drinking.
I personally don't think control drinking works for an A (at least from what I've seen from my AH). BUT, I think that your AW might need to find that out for herself - it is a lesson that she needs to experience, in order to understand - a lesson that can't just be taught. It might be a step in the right direction, if she realizes that she can't control her drinking.
I just re-read several posts that I had copied and pasted. Here's something anvilhead posted about denial a while back (maybe that helps):
How can we cope with denial in others?
In coping with denial in others, we need to:
* Have a great deal of patience in order to allow them the time it takes to finally confront their loss or problems.
* Be accepting of the denial as a psychological defense that is a vehicle for them to retain their sanity.
* Be careful in confronting them so that they don't run away or withdraw from reality even more.
* Be ready for their resistance in dealing with the truth about their loss and problems.
* Freely offer them our support and understanding.
* Accept them as they are, waiting to deal with the loss or problem until they are ready.
* Be ready with a rational perspective to help them refute their current irrational beliefs.
* Resist solving their problems for them; resist the desire to continue sheltering or protecting them from their loss or problems.
* Continue to let them know that there is support for them in dealing with the loss or problems. Let them face the existence of the loss or problem gently but continuously.
* Provide them with subtle means to face the problem by giving them magazine or newspaper articles, pamphlets or books on the subject; suggesting TV and radio programs on the subject, or proposing professional help.
* Recognize that if they are locked into a chronic state of denial, which is debilitating to their mental health, that a denial intervention may be necessary.
Hang in there - I know it can be really frustrating - but make sure you focus more on yourself and less on the recovery (or non-recovery) of your AW.
HUGS and all the best!!!
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
Alcoholism is all about the lie.
The lie we tell ourselves to get out of bed
to go to work
that we're okay we'll do better next time
the 'I'm okay' we tell everyone when we're dying inside....
unfortunately -
I'm gonna tell you what everyone here will proably GROAN to read again -
(heehee)
And that is -
A non-alcoholic is never going to 'understand' an alcoholic.
And an alcoholic is never going to understand a non-alcoholic.
it's better when you start out not even going down that road if you can at all avoid it.
She needs to do what she needs to do.
You... need to do what you need to do.
(to plagerize Kalihl Ghibran)
like two strings on a guitar
the two never entangle
but separately play the same chord.
same thing.
Right now -
this isthe time to educate yourself.
Read everything you can get your hands on.
About alcoholism (Under the Influence is a great read)
About CoDependency
About Recovery
This is an entire world until itself
the world of repair.
I am an alcoholic.
And I love alcoholics.
Nothing is going to change if nothing changes.
She will have to do her changing.
You will have to do yours.
Together, hopefully - but separate.
The lie we tell ourselves to get out of bed
to go to work
that we're okay we'll do better next time
the 'I'm okay' we tell everyone when we're dying inside....
unfortunately -
I'm gonna tell you what everyone here will proably GROAN to read again -
(heehee)
And that is -
A non-alcoholic is never going to 'understand' an alcoholic.
And an alcoholic is never going to understand a non-alcoholic.
it's better when you start out not even going down that road if you can at all avoid it.
She needs to do what she needs to do.
You... need to do what you need to do.
(to plagerize Kalihl Ghibran)
like two strings on a guitar
the two never entangle
but separately play the same chord.
same thing.
Right now -
this isthe time to educate yourself.
Read everything you can get your hands on.
About alcoholism (Under the Influence is a great read)
About CoDependency
About Recovery
This is an entire world until itself
the world of repair.
I am an alcoholic.
And I love alcoholics.
Nothing is going to change if nothing changes.
She will have to do her changing.
You will have to do yours.
Together, hopefully - but separate.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 985
I am from the old school in dealing with A's - a good read is another book called "I'l Quit Tommorrow". What I like about the book is that 1) it does allow A's to learn that through efforts like controlled drinking that it doesn't work, and 2) it emphasizes spiritual concept of healing and forgiveness of self and others, and 3) it is a practical guide to understanding and helping.
It sounds like your wife is recognizing her problem hence the agreement to control it. The hard part for you is letting her find out that it doesn't work.
Keep reading here and posting your questions, venting and learning.
It sounds like your wife is recognizing her problem hence the agreement to control it. The hard part for you is letting her find out that it doesn't work.
Keep reading here and posting your questions, venting and learning.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hi Shire. Here are some questions for you to ponder and reflect on. No need to answer here if you do not feel like discussing. I also recommend journaling with pen and paper.
What is your definition of "good" in this situation? Do you mean is it effective? Or healthy? Or moral? The answer likely depends on the outcome you are trying to get. What outcome are you looking for? Is this outcome dependent on someone else's thinking or behavior changing?
That is the other person's current understanding of herself, her behavior, and her life. In Recovery-speak, depending on how much she actually drinks and other factors, we would call that "Denial." All of us tend to downgrade the severity of the problem in our minds, and deny that it is as severe as it actually is. What do you think forcing an admission of alcoholism will get you?
Are you thinking that YOUR way is the "good" way or the "right" way or the "better" way for the person you are married to to act? WHOSE drinking are you worried about? What belongs to you and what doesn't?
Try to memorize The Three C's. Like all Twelve-Step 'slogans,' this will help you day-to-day when these issues and questions pop up in your head.
You did not CAUSE it
You cannot CONTROL it
You cannot CURE it.
Denial continues: is it good to continue attending AA if you don’t think you are an alcoholic?
My AW states she has an “alcohol problem”, but isn't an alcoholic ---what is that? I want an admission of alcoholism, because I know it is true.
My AW wants to Control the drinking as opposed to trying to stop completely: is this a good step in the right direction?
Try to memorize The Three C's. Like all Twelve-Step 'slogans,' this will help you day-to-day when these issues and questions pop up in your head.
You did not CAUSE it
You cannot CONTROL it
You cannot CURE it.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 56
I do weird things sometimes. For example, since my AH's diagnosis I've been watching a lot of A&E's series Intervention. I'm not sure why, maybe to try to understand more. Maybe to commisserate. Maybe to not feel so alone.
In any case, one of the things an interventionist said in the family "pre-intervention" meeting that struck me was that they don't care why someone says they'll go to treatment. If it's for someone else, to shut the family up, whatever, it does not matter. What matters is that they say yes and go, because without the yes the addict is for sure not close to help. With a yes for any reason they arrive within reach of help. In the end, they cannot recover unless it's for themselves, but their denial may prevent them from seeing that at the beginning, when they really need to get to help. Maybe by going your AW will hear bits and pieces that resonate with her and get her started on a better path, similar to what you might hear & pick up at Al-Anon. In the end, not embracing AA will be unproductive for her, but for now, just being there will be better than not going.
In any case, one of the things an interventionist said in the family "pre-intervention" meeting that struck me was that they don't care why someone says they'll go to treatment. If it's for someone else, to shut the family up, whatever, it does not matter. What matters is that they say yes and go, because without the yes the addict is for sure not close to help. With a yes for any reason they arrive within reach of help. In the end, they cannot recover unless it's for themselves, but their denial may prevent them from seeing that at the beginning, when they really need to get to help. Maybe by going your AW will hear bits and pieces that resonate with her and get her started on a better path, similar to what you might hear & pick up at Al-Anon. In the end, not embracing AA will be unproductive for her, but for now, just being there will be better than not going.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
i am not clear on the first question. is your wife attending aa? even though she hasn't crossed over yet to actually calling herself the dreaded "a"? or do you believe she should go, but because she has not labeled herself "a" she refuses?
i think that if she recognizes and alcohol "problem" that is a start. it may be months, or years before she makes the next leap to identifying herself as one. but yes, i do think that's the normal progression.
i think that if she recognizes and alcohol "problem" that is a start. it may be months, or years before she makes the next leap to identifying herself as one. but yes, i do think that's the normal progression.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
Ah, Shire. I so understand what you're talking about.
My A states "there's a problem" with alcohol but isn't "an alcoholic". In fact, my A won't speak at the few AA meetings attended, because saying "I'm an alcoholic" is unacceptable to them. Years ago there was apparently an attempt at attending AA, but there was some 13th stepping that went on and as far as I can tell it had something to do with derailing the process...at least, that was part of the reasoning at the time. This is the same A who has said, "I didn't work the steps the way someone really needs to (to enter recovery)." No external person is blocking any attempt to enter recovery now, but it's clear that readiness is the key ingredient, and it isn't present at this time.
My heart goes out to you. It's so easy to see this from the outside looking in, and all the while I know you are in pain. She has to go through her readiness process alone, Shire. And you can get to be the butterfly like in your pic...free and light and beautiful. This is one messy load you can't pick up, but she can completely transform it, in her own time, if she chooses.
Hugs to you. I know it's not easy.
posie
My A states "there's a problem" with alcohol but isn't "an alcoholic". In fact, my A won't speak at the few AA meetings attended, because saying "I'm an alcoholic" is unacceptable to them. Years ago there was apparently an attempt at attending AA, but there was some 13th stepping that went on and as far as I can tell it had something to do with derailing the process...at least, that was part of the reasoning at the time. This is the same A who has said, "I didn't work the steps the way someone really needs to (to enter recovery)." No external person is blocking any attempt to enter recovery now, but it's clear that readiness is the key ingredient, and it isn't present at this time.
My heart goes out to you. It's so easy to see this from the outside looking in, and all the while I know you are in pain. She has to go through her readiness process alone, Shire. And you can get to be the butterfly like in your pic...free and light and beautiful. This is one messy load you can't pick up, but she can completely transform it, in her own time, if she chooses.
Hugs to you. I know it's not easy.
posie
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
I just realized I didn't answer your question. You wondered if controlled drinking is a good first step.
All I can say is, my definition of "controlled drinking" and my A's definition are different. So different that my A says that if there's no drinking alone, then it's okay. Except that it turns out A then wanted to have one or two beers when getting home from work, but that didn't count as "drinking alone" because it wasn't vodka. And that, I was told, is the "big one". Except then again, it seems like I got a whiff of something during our counseling session at NOON on Wednesday. Smelled a lot like vodka.
Wish I could tell you something happier, or easier. Trust your gut, as I've been encouraged to do. And stay in the process for as long as you need to. In my experience, the controlled drinking thing is a set-up for disappointment.
posie
All I can say is, my definition of "controlled drinking" and my A's definition are different. So different that my A says that if there's no drinking alone, then it's okay. Except that it turns out A then wanted to have one or two beers when getting home from work, but that didn't count as "drinking alone" because it wasn't vodka. And that, I was told, is the "big one". Except then again, it seems like I got a whiff of something during our counseling session at NOON on Wednesday. Smelled a lot like vodka.
Wish I could tell you something happier, or easier. Trust your gut, as I've been encouraged to do. And stay in the process for as long as you need to. In my experience, the controlled drinking thing is a set-up for disappointment.
posie
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
But as Edward Albee said, Sometimes you have to go a long distance out of your way in order to come back a short distance correctly. Our lives are journeys and alcoholics are just the same as we are. Too much reality shoved into your face all at once can be just too much. We all go at our own pace. We open one eye and peek at the truh and then quick! squeeze our eyes shut tight again. We don't want to believe what we hear because then we would have to give something up, let go. And who wants to let go of something we want? Sometimes we never get to even Step One.
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
Originally Posted by coffeedrinker
i think that if she recognizes and alcohol "problem" that is a start. it may be months, or years before she makes the next leap to identifying herself as one.
In my experience, so far, soon-to-be-ex-AH has acknowledged that he has problems with alcohol for at least 7 years, he has promised (and pretended) to cut down/stop, many times.
we don't live together anymore and he says (once more) that he has "made changes" to his drinking. Evidence suggests otherwise.
he doesn't always acknowledge that he has a problem, sometimes only I have the problem, sometimes he has a problem but I exagerate it, sometimes life is so cruel to him, his past so terrible, his ex so heartless, his parents so unfair, his boss so incompetent, his wife so much of a b*tch, that he has no choice but to be an alcoholic. it changes apparently randomly. How confusing is that?
In my case, although on one level I think he often believes watever he is saying in the moment, he also says whatever serves his needs best in the short-term: that used to be shutting me up and getting me off of his back, whilst having the greatest chance of maintaining our relationship and the status quo (esp. alcohol). Now his needs are served best by demonising me, casting himself as my victim.
obviously I don't know what the future holds for him or your wife, but it isn't a case that someone will inevitably decide they have a problem and tackle it successfully. and that we just have to hang around long enough and we WILL see them do it, or leave them early enough and they will be jump started into it.
It's really hard to get a handle on, but honestly, there is no way of knowing, and NOTHING you can do to precipitate either outcome.
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
oh and "controlled drinking".
If she could control her drinking, why the h*ll hasn't she up until now? if it was just a case of applying herself what was so unimportant about the situation BEFORE now, that it didn't warrant it?
I used to be a pretty heavy drinker, in college and after, and some of my behaviour whilst drunk has been less than exemplary, there have been more than a few times when I have drunk FAR, FAR, too much.
With having children, and more responsible jobs within a different culture of professionalism expectations my behaviour regarding alcohol has changed many times over the last decade. It occurred to me the other day that I hadn't had a drink for six weeks, I hadn't planned this, there was no effort or decision involved, I hadn't even noticed. My behaviour regarding alcohol is the same as my behaviour involving eating spicy food or clothes I wear. It is a set of choices, and a set of behaviours, but I don't have to plan/contol/think about/avoid/monitor my alcohol intake.
Can someone who does have to plan their alcohol intake do it? given that they have failed so miserably often before? I don't believe anything is impossible, but is it likely? either way, sitting, being patient waiting for her to fail or succeed sounds like a miserable half-life (or at least I experienced it as a miserable state, all those years that I waited), how can you improve your life so that whether she succeeds or not, you are in a better place (physically/emotionally/financially/whatever you are struggling with right now)?
If she could control her drinking, why the h*ll hasn't she up until now? if it was just a case of applying herself what was so unimportant about the situation BEFORE now, that it didn't warrant it?
I used to be a pretty heavy drinker, in college and after, and some of my behaviour whilst drunk has been less than exemplary, there have been more than a few times when I have drunk FAR, FAR, too much.
With having children, and more responsible jobs within a different culture of professionalism expectations my behaviour regarding alcohol has changed many times over the last decade. It occurred to me the other day that I hadn't had a drink for six weeks, I hadn't planned this, there was no effort or decision involved, I hadn't even noticed. My behaviour regarding alcohol is the same as my behaviour involving eating spicy food or clothes I wear. It is a set of choices, and a set of behaviours, but I don't have to plan/contol/think about/avoid/monitor my alcohol intake.
Can someone who does have to plan their alcohol intake do it? given that they have failed so miserably often before? I don't believe anything is impossible, but is it likely? either way, sitting, being patient waiting for her to fail or succeed sounds like a miserable half-life (or at least I experienced it as a miserable state, all those years that I waited), how can you improve your life so that whether she succeeds or not, you are in a better place (physically/emotionally/financially/whatever you are struggling with right now)?
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