Some more advice please and thank you!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5
Some more advice please and thank you!
Hi Guys
Before I ask for more advice I just want to say thank you to all the amazing people on this part of the site. I've read and re-read so many of your posts over the last few months and your stories of survival and growth have been an inspiration and helped me enormously in understanding more about alcoholism and what I should do in my own situation.
Its hard for me to share details - I guess its an English thing. The bare outline is that I met up again with someone I had a relationship with some years ago and whom I loved very much - and he loved me. For a number of reasons we couldn't be together and it was with much sadness on both parts that we went our separate ways. This time around, there were no obstacles in the way - or so I thought - and we entered into a relationship again with no holds barred. It was a pretty wonderful time. I acknowledge that I ignored a few red flags - until he chose to reveal his binge drinking behaviour. I then gave him an ultimatum: seek help and stop drinking or I would walk away (I didn't know what a terrible illness alcoholism was at that stage). Needless to say, he managed 6 weeks and then drank again and after 4 weeks of tears (oh the tears) and half-hearted walking I went to no contact. (Just as an aside he has gone from 4 day binges every five weeks - his pattern for the last five years - to drinking daily and has been drinking daily for the last 5 weeks.)
I was doing quite well until today...
Today, he texts me to tell me that his mother has had a heart attack and been rushed into hospital (he now lives with her). He has now lost his job because of the daily drinking and has few other friends so it was hard to resist his cry for help and I phoned him to see how she is doing (and of course how he is). He asked if he could ring again and I said no, please text me to let me know how she is but no other contact. However, I feel particularly heartless when i know they have a very close relationship (unfortunately she is his main enabler). Can I just add that he is not an abusive drunk and whilst the lies have been heartbreaking I haven't had to endure vicious verbal attacks or critical comments.
Should I support him during this time or maintain my position of no contact? It would be easy to think that going no contact might hasten his 'bottom' but I think that is probably magical thinking - he has a private income so doesn't have to worry about money and his 'bottom' could be a long way off. Whilst he is an alcoholic he is still a person that I care very much about and if it was any other close friend I would want to support him...
I guess no one ever said this was going to be easy...
Before I ask for more advice I just want to say thank you to all the amazing people on this part of the site. I've read and re-read so many of your posts over the last few months and your stories of survival and growth have been an inspiration and helped me enormously in understanding more about alcoholism and what I should do in my own situation.
Its hard for me to share details - I guess its an English thing. The bare outline is that I met up again with someone I had a relationship with some years ago and whom I loved very much - and he loved me. For a number of reasons we couldn't be together and it was with much sadness on both parts that we went our separate ways. This time around, there were no obstacles in the way - or so I thought - and we entered into a relationship again with no holds barred. It was a pretty wonderful time. I acknowledge that I ignored a few red flags - until he chose to reveal his binge drinking behaviour. I then gave him an ultimatum: seek help and stop drinking or I would walk away (I didn't know what a terrible illness alcoholism was at that stage). Needless to say, he managed 6 weeks and then drank again and after 4 weeks of tears (oh the tears) and half-hearted walking I went to no contact. (Just as an aside he has gone from 4 day binges every five weeks - his pattern for the last five years - to drinking daily and has been drinking daily for the last 5 weeks.)
I was doing quite well until today...
Today, he texts me to tell me that his mother has had a heart attack and been rushed into hospital (he now lives with her). He has now lost his job because of the daily drinking and has few other friends so it was hard to resist his cry for help and I phoned him to see how she is doing (and of course how he is). He asked if he could ring again and I said no, please text me to let me know how she is but no other contact. However, I feel particularly heartless when i know they have a very close relationship (unfortunately she is his main enabler). Can I just add that he is not an abusive drunk and whilst the lies have been heartbreaking I haven't had to endure vicious verbal attacks or critical comments.
Should I support him during this time or maintain my position of no contact? It would be easy to think that going no contact might hasten his 'bottom' but I think that is probably magical thinking - he has a private income so doesn't have to worry about money and his 'bottom' could be a long way off. Whilst he is an alcoholic he is still a person that I care very much about and if it was any other close friend I would want to support him...
I guess no one ever said this was going to be easy...
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
How would you respond if he was a non-drinker?
support and enabling are different animals
What are your motives for contacting or not contacting him?
Would you be supportive of him while his mother in the hospital if he wasn't drinking?
If so, why? What's the difference?
Are your motives to be supportive or get back together with him?
Are you considering getting back together with him?
If only he gets sober I mean.
Why use his mother's heart attack for a possible vehicle to get him to quit drinking?
Can you take your agenda out of the equation and revisit the question?
support and enabling are different animals
It would be easy to think that going no contact might hasten his 'bottom' but I think that is probably magical thinking
Would you be supportive of him while his mother in the hospital if he wasn't drinking?
If so, why? What's the difference?
Are your motives to be supportive or get back together with him?
Are you considering getting back together with him?
If only he gets sober I mean.
Why use his mother's heart attack for a possible vehicle to get him to quit drinking?
Can you take your agenda out of the equation and revisit the question?
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Hi Louise--
No it is not easy, and some of the regular rules don't apply when dealing with alcoholics. Alcoholism is called a "family disease" because so many of the mechanisms the alcoholic needs to use to keep drinking involve behaviors and feelings that are normally part of of the healthy give and take that exists in loving relationships. And so the dynamic gets warped real quick.
I've been through many hard times with my brothers. When I was young it was like I was at their beck and call- money? rides? crash pad? a sympathetic ear? I gave it all, until I realized how much I was hurting myself and seriously hurting them.
Sometimes my brothers were going through very difficult patches - stuff that happens to all of us- loss of job, lover, friends, self-esteem. I had to always question my motivation in wanting to jump in and help. Would I be further enabling?
It was so confusing at first. But over the years I began to feel safer in my boundaries-- like I know when I am about to participate in some little dance or BS that is ultimately about their drinking behavior or consequences. And so I choose to sit those moments out!
But I am also able now, to reach out in ways that are compassionate, that allow me my humanity & I can offer reasonable comfort to them in ways that don't lead to me hurting myself or enabling their diseases.
It really is hard! There was a period of my life where I was pretty much no contact with 2 of my bros...but I would send them postcards occasionnally just to say I love them and I am thinking of them, or to share the title of a good book or movie...stuff like that.
When our father died - it was hard on all of us - but particualrly on one brother I knew it would be really tough - they had both excelled at the same sport in their youth and had a kind of special bond - they even looked just alike, and I know my bro worshiped him (and it always bugged me that he imitated my dad's drinking but didn't imitate my father's recovery!!). So in the weeks and months that followed I was more available and tried to do things with my bro, but only if he wasn't drinking. If he called me drunk and wanted to stroll down the pity road I just excused myself from the conversation.
But I also know that as an adult - when the going gets tough- like losing a loved one - that it is still something we all must learn to bear. I cannot be the sole salvation for anyone else's woes or burdens. I can do my part, and then they have to learn to cope - just like I do!
I don;t know if that helps you Louise-- but you're not alone - and knowing when to step in and when to keep your distance with an alcoholic is a slippery slope - because I learned how I am differernt than other people - and when I have the urge to help I have to be very careful that I am not sliding into old unhealthy codependent thought patterns or behaviors.
Good luck-
b
No it is not easy, and some of the regular rules don't apply when dealing with alcoholics. Alcoholism is called a "family disease" because so many of the mechanisms the alcoholic needs to use to keep drinking involve behaviors and feelings that are normally part of of the healthy give and take that exists in loving relationships. And so the dynamic gets warped real quick.
I've been through many hard times with my brothers. When I was young it was like I was at their beck and call- money? rides? crash pad? a sympathetic ear? I gave it all, until I realized how much I was hurting myself and seriously hurting them.
Sometimes my brothers were going through very difficult patches - stuff that happens to all of us- loss of job, lover, friends, self-esteem. I had to always question my motivation in wanting to jump in and help. Would I be further enabling?
It was so confusing at first. But over the years I began to feel safer in my boundaries-- like I know when I am about to participate in some little dance or BS that is ultimately about their drinking behavior or consequences. And so I choose to sit those moments out!
But I am also able now, to reach out in ways that are compassionate, that allow me my humanity & I can offer reasonable comfort to them in ways that don't lead to me hurting myself or enabling their diseases.
It really is hard! There was a period of my life where I was pretty much no contact with 2 of my bros...but I would send them postcards occasionnally just to say I love them and I am thinking of them, or to share the title of a good book or movie...stuff like that.
When our father died - it was hard on all of us - but particualrly on one brother I knew it would be really tough - they had both excelled at the same sport in their youth and had a kind of special bond - they even looked just alike, and I know my bro worshiped him (and it always bugged me that he imitated my dad's drinking but didn't imitate my father's recovery!!). So in the weeks and months that followed I was more available and tried to do things with my bro, but only if he wasn't drinking. If he called me drunk and wanted to stroll down the pity road I just excused myself from the conversation.
But I also know that as an adult - when the going gets tough- like losing a loved one - that it is still something we all must learn to bear. I cannot be the sole salvation for anyone else's woes or burdens. I can do my part, and then they have to learn to cope - just like I do!
I don;t know if that helps you Louise-- but you're not alone - and knowing when to step in and when to keep your distance with an alcoholic is a slippery slope - because I learned how I am differernt than other people - and when I have the urge to help I have to be very careful that I am not sliding into old unhealthy codependent thought patterns or behaviors.
Good luck-
b
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5
Ago, you ask some searching questions...
I have found it very hard to walk away from someone I love. I know I can't be with him. That is where I am. I don't expect anything I do to influence his decision to stop drinking and I also realise that stopping drinking is only the beginning and that from what you have all said and from what I've read the road is long and tough.
I have told him that the relationship is over whether he stops drinking today, next week or next month. However, I also said that if he stops drinking, enters a programme, has a plan and has a year's sobriety under his belt, that I would love to hear from him. That may be a mistake but it is how I feel. As I said, I don't believe for one moment that anything I say or do will affect his decision to drink or not and to be honest I don't think we will ever be in a relationship again. That is a hard one and I am still coming to terms with that. I'm sure part of me is big in denial about that one.
However, re his mother. They have a very close relationship and I almost lost my own mother to septicemia last year so I feel a lot of sympathy for him. He has no one to talk to about how he feels right now. I would like to support him but don't know if that is a mistake after the decision I have made. Why do I want to support him - because that's what I would do if it was a girlfriend who I cared about. Surely he is a person first and an alcoholic second? This is hard.
I have found it very hard to walk away from someone I love. I know I can't be with him. That is where I am. I don't expect anything I do to influence his decision to stop drinking and I also realise that stopping drinking is only the beginning and that from what you have all said and from what I've read the road is long and tough.
I have told him that the relationship is over whether he stops drinking today, next week or next month. However, I also said that if he stops drinking, enters a programme, has a plan and has a year's sobriety under his belt, that I would love to hear from him. That may be a mistake but it is how I feel. As I said, I don't believe for one moment that anything I say or do will affect his decision to drink or not and to be honest I don't think we will ever be in a relationship again. That is a hard one and I am still coming to terms with that. I'm sure part of me is big in denial about that one.
However, re his mother. They have a very close relationship and I almost lost my own mother to septicemia last year so I feel a lot of sympathy for him. He has no one to talk to about how he feels right now. I would like to support him but don't know if that is a mistake after the decision I have made. Why do I want to support him - because that's what I would do if it was a girlfriend who I cared about. Surely he is a person first and an alcoholic second? This is hard.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hi Louise,
I am sorry you are having a hard time. I agree with you, though, he IS a person first and an alcoholic second. I have been in the EXACT SAME position with an XBF with drug & alcohol problems and had the EXACT SAME feelings as you so I understand what you are saying and why you are dealing with this situation the way you are.
I also agree with you that thinking YOUR no contact can CAUSE his bottom is absolute hogwash. Or that maintaining contact at this time will PREVENT his bottom. That IS magical thinking. We are powerless over the alcoholic and the alcoholism in ALL ways; not just in the ways we want to believe.
I too could not just turn my head from the situation. I would not have been able to live with myself had I done so. It is very difficult for ANYONE, alcoholic or not, when their parent's life is threatened especially by heart disease. Supporting him during this time is a choice that only YOU can make and it sounds to me like you already know what you need to do for your own self. It would be absurd to think that his ALCOHOLISM caused his mother's illness. To think that supporting him thru this time is enabling the continuation of his illness is faulty reasoning. I would suggest though that while you may want to support him with things like taking turns going to the hospital, sending him cards, or such things, just be conscious of whether or not what you choose to do is enabling him to continue his addictive lifestyle.
In my case, I followed my heart and my morals, despite what I knew about the addictions my old friend had. It didn't kill me for goodness sake. And I know in my heart that I DID help this person in ways I was able (and those ways were UNRELATED to his addictions). Of course I didn't damage him or myself. I learned an immense amount about MYSELF. We BOTH learned from the experience. Of course, he has since decided to forget what he learned, LOL.
It is so great that you realize that nothing you say or do will make him do anything. You sound pretty practical about the whole matter. And I feel that you are right-on about doing what you feel is best for you, no matter what anybody else says you should do. You are the best and most capable person to make your own decisions concerning your life and how you treat other human beings.
I am sorry you are having a hard time. I agree with you, though, he IS a person first and an alcoholic second. I have been in the EXACT SAME position with an XBF with drug & alcohol problems and had the EXACT SAME feelings as you so I understand what you are saying and why you are dealing with this situation the way you are.
Should I support him during this time or maintain my position of no contact? It would be easy to think that going no contact might hasten his 'bottom' but I think that is probably magical thinking - he has a private income so doesn't have to worry about money and his 'bottom' could be a long way off.
Whilst he is an alcoholic he is still a person that I care very much about and if it was any other close friend I would want to support him...
In my case, I followed my heart and my morals, despite what I knew about the addictions my old friend had. It didn't kill me for goodness sake. And I know in my heart that I DID help this person in ways I was able (and those ways were UNRELATED to his addictions). Of course I didn't damage him or myself. I learned an immense amount about MYSELF. We BOTH learned from the experience. Of course, he has since decided to forget what he learned, LOL.
It is so great that you realize that nothing you say or do will make him do anything. You sound pretty practical about the whole matter. And I feel that you are right-on about doing what you feel is best for you, no matter what anybody else says you should do. You are the best and most capable person to make your own decisions concerning your life and how you treat other human beings.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5
L2L: you always say something in your posts that resonates with me. Just thinking about the fact that me continuing to see him wouldn't PREVENT his recovery makes me feel ashamed of my pride. Why do I think I have that much 'control' over his behaviour?
Having researched as much as I could into alcoholism and of course codependence (including reading Codependent No More) I reassured myself that I was neither a codependent nor an enabler. Smug, heh? But of course, on second reading of CNM I realised that I am a 'fixer'. My ex-husband loses thousands in a business venture? No worries, I'll organise some meetings, get my family to throw in some financial support and remortgage the house so that he can lose a bit more. My ex-husband is having an affair and taking no interest in his children? No worries, I'll behave with dignity throughout the divorce, sell the house, coax the children through their exams and carry on with my charity work and carry on smiling. My mother has cancer? No worries, I'll research the problem, identify a rare cancer type, show the consultant and then wait for him to confirm I'm right. My boyfriend is an alcoholic? No worries, I'll...
Ah. I'm powerless. There is absolutely nothing I can do or say that can fix this one. Absolutely nothing. And I'm on the floor. And this time, because I can't fix him I've got to focus on me. Now that really is scary.
I never realised before that I didn't live in today. I lived in tomorrow, always planning, always fixing so that tomorrow would be ok. That brought with it so much anxiety as I focussed on the problems that may lay ahead and how I might perceive them/approach them/solve them.
I can't think about tomorrow any more because I don't know what that will bring. He might drink, he might not, he might go into recovery, he might never find his way. All I can go on is today. Today he is drinking, today he is active and I can't live with that. It breaks my heart but I can't live with it. And I have to stop looking to tomorrow (hoping that he might stop) and instead focus on the good things, of which there are many, in my life. Today.
I need to do some more thinking about this...
Having researched as much as I could into alcoholism and of course codependence (including reading Codependent No More) I reassured myself that I was neither a codependent nor an enabler. Smug, heh? But of course, on second reading of CNM I realised that I am a 'fixer'. My ex-husband loses thousands in a business venture? No worries, I'll organise some meetings, get my family to throw in some financial support and remortgage the house so that he can lose a bit more. My ex-husband is having an affair and taking no interest in his children? No worries, I'll behave with dignity throughout the divorce, sell the house, coax the children through their exams and carry on with my charity work and carry on smiling. My mother has cancer? No worries, I'll research the problem, identify a rare cancer type, show the consultant and then wait for him to confirm I'm right. My boyfriend is an alcoholic? No worries, I'll...
Ah. I'm powerless. There is absolutely nothing I can do or say that can fix this one. Absolutely nothing. And I'm on the floor. And this time, because I can't fix him I've got to focus on me. Now that really is scary.
I never realised before that I didn't live in today. I lived in tomorrow, always planning, always fixing so that tomorrow would be ok. That brought with it so much anxiety as I focussed on the problems that may lay ahead and how I might perceive them/approach them/solve them.
I can't think about tomorrow any more because I don't know what that will bring. He might drink, he might not, he might go into recovery, he might never find his way. All I can go on is today. Today he is drinking, today he is active and I can't live with that. It breaks my heart but I can't live with it. And I have to stop looking to tomorrow (hoping that he might stop) and instead focus on the good things, of which there are many, in my life. Today.
I need to do some more thinking about this...
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thanks Louise. That was so sweet of you to say. I'm glad some of my words are helpful to you.
I just want to say, in response to your post, that I too am the same way as you. I am always trying to fix, make better, pretty up, recover, etc. I've found that part of myself very difficult to change. So, I focus on house and garden and job, instead of people and their lives.
My "fixing" and "bettering" is now mostly limited to things around the house (like painting a room or shopping for little knickknacks in trendy thrift stores). I choose to look at my need to improve things as a talent but changed my focus from fixing people to fixing inanimate objects like the looks of the house. You can do that too if you want to.
I do still help others I come in contact with but I do my best to avoid helping addicts and alcoholics. No matter what, though, I will always help my Dad, who is severely alcoholic. That help is for ME and my mother, who is my father's wife and who will never leave him, whether she enables him or not. He will die alcoholic; he is 72 and refuses to get help.
If you're not going to al-anon already, it may be of great help to you. It is also a great help to avoid and not allow into your life addicts and alcoholics. I hope your journey through life gets you in that place will you will no longer allow them to pollute your atmosphere.
Take good care of yourself. L2L
I just want to say, in response to your post, that I too am the same way as you. I am always trying to fix, make better, pretty up, recover, etc. I've found that part of myself very difficult to change. So, I focus on house and garden and job, instead of people and their lives.
My "fixing" and "bettering" is now mostly limited to things around the house (like painting a room or shopping for little knickknacks in trendy thrift stores). I choose to look at my need to improve things as a talent but changed my focus from fixing people to fixing inanimate objects like the looks of the house. You can do that too if you want to.
I do still help others I come in contact with but I do my best to avoid helping addicts and alcoholics. No matter what, though, I will always help my Dad, who is severely alcoholic. That help is for ME and my mother, who is my father's wife and who will never leave him, whether she enables him or not. He will die alcoholic; he is 72 and refuses to get help.
If you're not going to al-anon already, it may be of great help to you. It is also a great help to avoid and not allow into your life addicts and alcoholics. I hope your journey through life gets you in that place will you will no longer allow them to pollute your atmosphere.
Take good care of yourself. L2L
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
