Scared to go to a meeting/Bookless meetings?/Spiral steps
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
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Scared to go to a meeting/Bookless meetings?/Spiral steps
Hello, I am new here, and have been wanting some person to person support in terms of quitting drinking.
There is an agnostic AA meeting, and I was thinking of going, but not sure what to expect. It is an ‘open’ meeting. I just wonder what meetings are like, never been to an AA meeting of any kind, though did go to a SMART meeting once, but it was very small…..just me, and the moderator, then he left town, no more meetings.
I’ve had a few experiences with AA, all online, and all bad! I don’t much care for the steps, or the big book, or found them very useful. I've never been able to wrap my mind around AA due to the book/steps, the way God turns up so much. Not to mention, it seems so guilt based, making all these lists about what you did wrong, as opposed to lists of what you did right, or what you did in-between right and wrong. I just didn’t get it, it all seemed based on a very traditional Judeo-Christian worldview, that I found it hard to even approach.
I tried once what somebody said, black out the parts that did not help, and most of the book was like that: gone. It seemed more like the structure that I had a problem with, not the parts. It seemed impossible to take what I wanted and leave the rest without the whole structure collapsing, if I can use a metaphor.
I’m also not religious in any real sense; I tend to have a vague worship of nature, of foxes, wolves and certain animals, but not in such a way that they are seen as ‘powers’ that have any ability to meddle in human affairs.
Also, I don’t like the idea that we are ‘defective’, it seems a counterproductive notion, and closely allied with Christianity’s notion of original sin.
Does anyone know of meetings where they don't use the big book???
Well, hoping to hear some input. I have looked at a version of the steps called the spiral steps that seems more workable…….they are like this:
Spiral Steps
1. We admitted that we had a problem and made the decision to reclaim our lives.
2. We came to believe that there was hope for healing, health and balance.
3. We now honor our connection with the divine, as we understand it, and we accept the process of change.
4. We make a searching, fearless and honest inventory of our behavior and beliefs. We consider their effect on our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual selves and their impact on our relations with others.
5. We admit to ourselves and to another human being what is both healthy and unhealthy in our lives and we make a daily commitment to heal ourselves in body, mind and spirit.
6. We are willing to seek our Highest Good and to grow both spiritually and emotionally.
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
8. We make a list of all beings we have harmed, including ourselves, and we become willing to make amends to them all.
9. We work to restore balance in our lives. We make direct amends to others wherever possible and we value and care for ourselves.
10. We continue to take personal inventory and promptly acknowledge both our mistakes and our achievements whenever they occur.
11. We continue to grow in compassion, strength and understanding. We learn to celebrate our lives and our connection to all living things.
12. Having had a spiritual and emotional awakening, we work to help others along the path and we practice these principles in all our affairs.
13. We seek to find our calling and to develop the will and the wisdom to follow it.
I think I could live better with a version like this, just wondering how amenable AAers are to such things, or if they wig out and start thumping the big book.
Again, hope to get some input,
HP
There is an agnostic AA meeting, and I was thinking of going, but not sure what to expect. It is an ‘open’ meeting. I just wonder what meetings are like, never been to an AA meeting of any kind, though did go to a SMART meeting once, but it was very small…..just me, and the moderator, then he left town, no more meetings.
I’ve had a few experiences with AA, all online, and all bad! I don’t much care for the steps, or the big book, or found them very useful. I've never been able to wrap my mind around AA due to the book/steps, the way God turns up so much. Not to mention, it seems so guilt based, making all these lists about what you did wrong, as opposed to lists of what you did right, or what you did in-between right and wrong. I just didn’t get it, it all seemed based on a very traditional Judeo-Christian worldview, that I found it hard to even approach.
I tried once what somebody said, black out the parts that did not help, and most of the book was like that: gone. It seemed more like the structure that I had a problem with, not the parts. It seemed impossible to take what I wanted and leave the rest without the whole structure collapsing, if I can use a metaphor.
I’m also not religious in any real sense; I tend to have a vague worship of nature, of foxes, wolves and certain animals, but not in such a way that they are seen as ‘powers’ that have any ability to meddle in human affairs.
Also, I don’t like the idea that we are ‘defective’, it seems a counterproductive notion, and closely allied with Christianity’s notion of original sin.
Does anyone know of meetings where they don't use the big book???
Well, hoping to hear some input. I have looked at a version of the steps called the spiral steps that seems more workable…….they are like this:
Spiral Steps
1. We admitted that we had a problem and made the decision to reclaim our lives.
2. We came to believe that there was hope for healing, health and balance.
3. We now honor our connection with the divine, as we understand it, and we accept the process of change.
4. We make a searching, fearless and honest inventory of our behavior and beliefs. We consider their effect on our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual selves and their impact on our relations with others.
5. We admit to ourselves and to another human being what is both healthy and unhealthy in our lives and we make a daily commitment to heal ourselves in body, mind and spirit.
6. We are willing to seek our Highest Good and to grow both spiritually and emotionally.
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
8. We make a list of all beings we have harmed, including ourselves, and we become willing to make amends to them all.
9. We work to restore balance in our lives. We make direct amends to others wherever possible and we value and care for ourselves.
10. We continue to take personal inventory and promptly acknowledge both our mistakes and our achievements whenever they occur.
11. We continue to grow in compassion, strength and understanding. We learn to celebrate our lives and our connection to all living things.
12. Having had a spiritual and emotional awakening, we work to help others along the path and we practice these principles in all our affairs.
13. We seek to find our calling and to develop the will and the wisdom to follow it.
I think I could live better with a version like this, just wondering how amenable AAers are to such things, or if they wig out and start thumping the big book.
Again, hope to get some input,
HP
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Location: Dancing in the Light
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I think we should each do whatever works for us.
Recovery is an amazing journey and, I am not an AA person, but I use books and SR to help me on a daily basis. There is a lot of inspiration here, so take a look around.
Recovery is an amazing journey and, I am not an AA person, but I use books and SR to help me on a daily basis. There is a lot of inspiration here, so take a look around.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LA - Lower Alabama
Posts: 5,068
I think you ought to go to several AA meetings, in person, rather than relying on an online meeting, which IMHO is not AA.
Here is a great link on what to expect at your first AA meeting:
Your First AA Meeting
Here is a great link on what to expect at your first AA meeting:
Your First AA Meeting
Owner of a strange glitch.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: midsouth
Posts: 2,331
HP, I'm not really "in the know" as far as being "an AA person," however I have some experience as a newcomer. I have been to a few meetings in real life, and a few online. I find nothing in common. Also, there is an extremely wide range of differences between the meetings I attended in person. Some seemed colder, at others people went out of their way to greet me. There are big ones small ones, and ones where only one person talks. And as far as the ideology behind it, I have heard the gamut there. The first meeting did not mention it at all, outside of those rote steps. People talked about what happened in their day, and nary a mention of anything religious, spiritual or anything along those lines. Another did refer to said Judeo-Christian tradition, in that sort of infrastructure way you mentioned.
You could try a few, or see if there's somebody around you who would be able to tell you better which meetings go for which type of philosophy. I have noticed that some people in the meetings seem to know every other meeting.
As far as everything else, I, like Anna, largely depend on SR for support and we are not alone. I wish you the best of luck whatever path you choose.
You could try a few, or see if there's somebody around you who would be able to tell you better which meetings go for which type of philosophy. I have noticed that some people in the meetings seem to know every other meeting.
As far as everything else, I, like Anna, largely depend on SR for support and we are not alone. I wish you the best of luck whatever path you choose.
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eating Tofu!
Posts: 882
Thanks for the replies. I may try an Agnostic meeting that meets on a night I happen to have off. I wish there was a guide to which meetings were more liberal, and which were more conservative. I guess I might gauge this somewhat by neighborhood, or part of the city, as certain parts of Baltimore are more artsy/educated than others, and thus might have meetings with more diverse viewpoints. Hard to say.
But would still like some in person support, and can't take the steps as they are written, I have to change them or there’s just no way I’m gonna even try to use them.
HP
But would still like some in person support, and can't take the steps as they are written, I have to change them or there’s just no way I’m gonna even try to use them.
HP
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Hotel California
Posts: 175
There is one thing more than anything else that will defeat
us in our recovery; this is an attitude of indifference or
intolerance toward spiritual principles. Three of these that are
indispensable are honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness.
With these we are well on our way.
Being willing and open-minded enough to try what worked for countless others got me on the path to recovery...
Best of luck to you...
us in our recovery; this is an attitude of indifference or
intolerance toward spiritual principles. Three of these that are
indispensable are honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness.
With these we are well on our way.
Being willing and open-minded enough to try what worked for countless others got me on the path to recovery...
Best of luck to you...
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: On my way
Posts: 173
hey huskypup---
I completely understand what you are saying. I have been saying the same stuff for about 3-4 years. I never even gave it a second thought, I was convinced it would be like going to church.
Well after failing countless times trying to do it myself and seeing a therapist I finally gave in and went to my first AA meeting last night. It was a great experience. I only wish I had gone years ago. It does not have to be a religious experience. I was amazed how little was spoken about God or a HP. This was a closed meeting for beginners, no big book or steps---and it is the first time EVER that I actually feel good about finally being able to quit. I actually went to a second meeting today. I was/am shocked at the kindness/support and plain willingness to honestly try and help another who is suffering. Even if you do not do the steps and ect,...at least give it a try...it won't make anything any worse. Best of luck, everyone has to find what will work for them.
I just met so many people who were happy!!! Actually happy!! Happy with themselves, happy with thier lives. I want that so bad, I am willing to give anything a try.
I completely understand what you are saying. I have been saying the same stuff for about 3-4 years. I never even gave it a second thought, I was convinced it would be like going to church.
Well after failing countless times trying to do it myself and seeing a therapist I finally gave in and went to my first AA meeting last night. It was a great experience. I only wish I had gone years ago. It does not have to be a religious experience. I was amazed how little was spoken about God or a HP. This was a closed meeting for beginners, no big book or steps---and it is the first time EVER that I actually feel good about finally being able to quit. I actually went to a second meeting today. I was/am shocked at the kindness/support and plain willingness to honestly try and help another who is suffering. Even if you do not do the steps and ect,...at least give it a try...it won't make anything any worse. Best of luck, everyone has to find what will work for them.
I just met so many people who were happy!!! Actually happy!! Happy with themselves, happy with thier lives. I want that so bad, I am willing to give anything a try.
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by anvilhead 
here's a question for ya.....when you were drinking, how picky were you THEN about WHERE you went to drink? did you sit there and do research on the various bars and taverns, and whether they had free pour, top shelf, happy hour and air conditioning? when you WANTED a drink, what prevented you?
now here you are WANTING to not drink......why not put the preconceived notions (read that EXCUSES) aside long enough to spend an hour to an hour and a half with other persons also trying NOT to drink? grab a cup of really lousy coffee, grab a folding chair and just see how it goes? and THEN if you don't like it so much, try something else! there's stickies up above (somewhere) that list all kinds of recovery resources and programs......instead of expending a ton of energy on what you are NOT willing to do, try to focus on what your ARE willing to do...............
now here you are WANTING to not drink......why not put the preconceived notions (read that EXCUSES) aside long enough to spend an hour to an hour and a half with other persons also trying NOT to drink? grab a cup of really lousy coffee, grab a folding chair and just see how it goes? and THEN if you don't like it so much, try something else! there's stickies up above (somewhere) that list all kinds of recovery resources and programs......instead of expending a ton of energy on what you are NOT willing to do, try to focus on what your ARE willing to do...............
And I am focusing on what I am willing to do, and looking at meeting where I won't be kicked out for saying how I feel, as I know folks who have been kicked out of AA meetings just for questioning, not even in a mean way, but just questioning the steps, and saying they didn’t quite agree. I don't need that, so I want to try to avoid it.
I do see your point of trying something, and I did try SMART live, only they meet on nights I always work, so must keep looking. I am not as unwilling to try things as you may paint me as, but I am one to speak my mind, and don’t want to go a place where it will only cause a row.
HP
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
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Jade, I am willing to try.....but still scared of then having to go to a lifetime of meetings, slowly getting lured in, all that...I am not one who has ever felt part of a group very easily, always have been a loner of sorts, who likes people, talks a lot, but feels alone, not part of anything. No family, no clan, no group......have always found it hard just to identify with a group and stop myself from seeing the dynamics of how they work, the subtle politics.......it is not a bad feeling, but a contemplative one, like I am always looking out at things when I am in a group. So I am not sure AA would be good......as I would want to talk a lot, and I don’t think they like that. Or am I wrong? Could I talk, ask questions, and what not, in a polite way? Or is it more like speeches???
HP
HP
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I shopped around and tried several meetings before I found a couple of groups I feel comfortable with. There is a big difference between groups. In my hometown in the US there are all kinds of groups: gays, women only, native american, breakfast meetings, lunch, late night, speaker only, book meetings, you name it.
Here in sweden I go to one group close to my home that is not particularly special, it is just close to home and 10 minutes away. I wanted to have a group that would be quickly accessable.
But I also go to an international group that is very active and organizes tons of non-meeting activities all week. Like mini-conventions, young people in AA disco nights, Sunday picnics.
Once you start looking around, you will find a lot of options in the way of meetings.
Here in sweden I go to one group close to my home that is not particularly special, it is just close to home and 10 minutes away. I wanted to have a group that would be quickly accessable.
But I also go to an international group that is very active and organizes tons of non-meeting activities all week. Like mini-conventions, young people in AA disco nights, Sunday picnics.
Once you start looking around, you will find a lot of options in the way of meetings.
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As long as you either do not have a problem, or, your problem isn't enough of a problem - don't do things you don't like.
But if you decide you DO have a problem and you wish to address the problem, do a whole bunch of stuff you DO NOT like, because whatever you do like isn't working... right?
I often challenge people to attend AA meetings until "their way" works enough to manage their problem(s).
A funny thing happens... they discover 'recovery'.
Some of us (that includes me) were, and sometimes are, a bit too 'sissy' based to succeed. We whine and moan about what we don't like and stagnate in our own self-pity. Stand up for yourself and go to AA.
But if you decide you DO have a problem and you wish to address the problem, do a whole bunch of stuff you DO NOT like, because whatever you do like isn't working... right?
I often challenge people to attend AA meetings until "their way" works enough to manage their problem(s).
A funny thing happens... they discover 'recovery'.
Some of us (that includes me) were, and sometimes are, a bit too 'sissy' based to succeed. We whine and moan about what we don't like and stagnate in our own self-pity. Stand up for yourself and go to AA.
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
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By late night, does this mean there are meetings that might meet at , say 1 AM (when I get out of work)? That would be the best time for me, as temptation is also strongest then.
HP
HP
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
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I've been to an agnostic meeting here is the deal with the one I went to:
1. They gave out the book Living Sober, it is an official AA book but a little less thumperish I guess you could say
2. There was no prayers whatsoever said
3. I don't even think they read anything, any steps, anything whatsoever, they did pass out a copy of the agnostic 12 steps
4. The format was open discussion, so anyone could share anything. At this meeting the topic basically ended up being about was it relapse yes or no to take pain pills if you were in pain. Then after people raised their hands, they went around in a circle and gave every single person a chance to share (there were 50 people in the room I thought this was annoying and I seriously could care less about the topic), some people passed.
5. A lot of people shared about hating the god aspect of AA and hating certain aspects of AA, it sort of seemed like the meeting where people in the program felt free to vent about things they felt annoyed with in other meetings.
I am not an AA person. I have been to about 10 meetings total in my life. I really did not dig the agnostic meeting that much; its title was "freethinker and artists" or something like that, and I am both of these in a lot of ways. However, if you go to other AA meetings you find yourself feeling a connection to people, in this meeting I found it dry and bitter. I actually think the spiritual aspect is what makes AA and that has little to do with god in my book. It has a lot more to do with connection. Some people call that God. Others call that other things.
I very much understand not liking how the 12 steps are written. I am not a god person I just don't get hung up on the words. Just take what you like and leave the rest. Take it loosely. Also a good book (if you are a female) that fleshes it out is A Woman's Way Through the Twelve Steps Workbook by Stephanie S. Covington Ph. D.
Another way to approach the spiritual aspect of recovery is through buddhism. There might be a buddhist recovery resource in your town.
Buddhist Recovery
Otherwise any sort of buddhist meditation class or group is helpful.
I like listening to the stories in AA. God is part of some people's stories even if it isn't part of your own. And you will sometimes be surprised what stories come out of which mouths. I would hit a lot of different meetings before forming a firm opinion.
1. They gave out the book Living Sober, it is an official AA book but a little less thumperish I guess you could say
2. There was no prayers whatsoever said
3. I don't even think they read anything, any steps, anything whatsoever, they did pass out a copy of the agnostic 12 steps
4. The format was open discussion, so anyone could share anything. At this meeting the topic basically ended up being about was it relapse yes or no to take pain pills if you were in pain. Then after people raised their hands, they went around in a circle and gave every single person a chance to share (there were 50 people in the room I thought this was annoying and I seriously could care less about the topic), some people passed.
5. A lot of people shared about hating the god aspect of AA and hating certain aspects of AA, it sort of seemed like the meeting where people in the program felt free to vent about things they felt annoyed with in other meetings.
I am not an AA person. I have been to about 10 meetings total in my life. I really did not dig the agnostic meeting that much; its title was "freethinker and artists" or something like that, and I am both of these in a lot of ways. However, if you go to other AA meetings you find yourself feeling a connection to people, in this meeting I found it dry and bitter. I actually think the spiritual aspect is what makes AA and that has little to do with god in my book. It has a lot more to do with connection. Some people call that God. Others call that other things.
I very much understand not liking how the 12 steps are written. I am not a god person I just don't get hung up on the words. Just take what you like and leave the rest. Take it loosely. Also a good book (if you are a female) that fleshes it out is A Woman's Way Through the Twelve Steps Workbook by Stephanie S. Covington Ph. D.
Another way to approach the spiritual aspect of recovery is through buddhism. There might be a buddhist recovery resource in your town.
Buddhist Recovery
Otherwise any sort of buddhist meditation class or group is helpful.
I like listening to the stories in AA. God is part of some people's stories even if it isn't part of your own. And you will sometimes be surprised what stories come out of which mouths. I would hit a lot of different meetings before forming a firm opinion.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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I have been to AA meetings all over the USA including one in Glen Burnie, MD. I do not believe there are 'liberal' and 'conservative' AA meetings in the sense I believe you are looking for.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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I don't know... I don't think the 12 steps are guilt based... We take inventory in the fourth step, just like a business-person... Things we find that are not successful for us, we get rid of. Simple as that... No one is perfect and BTW, I don't think I have anymore defects than anyone else, it's just important to my recovery that I clean house...
The 9th step thing with the amends... I am not sure I have done more people wrong than a great many others have... probably fewer than some, more than others... It is pragmatic to get rid of guilt .....so that I am at peace...
But hey, if you don't dig AA, I am not gonna change that. I personally don't like your spiral steps... but that's OK, I, personally don't find DBT to be helpful... doesn't mean a thing because some find it enormously helpful, I don't like broccoli either
I'll bet you will be surprised with your AA experience, as long as you go with an open mind and go to several... And if you are like many, you'll be looking forward to the next and you'll quit worrying about "having" to go, you'll want to...
Nice to see you here, thanx for your post... Hope you didn't find mine excessively negative, you asked what AAers thought... well it's OK, the spiral steps and all, but it ain't AA.
Mark
The 9th step thing with the amends... I am not sure I have done more people wrong than a great many others have... probably fewer than some, more than others... It is pragmatic to get rid of guilt .....so that I am at peace...
But hey, if you don't dig AA, I am not gonna change that. I personally don't like your spiral steps... but that's OK, I, personally don't find DBT to be helpful... doesn't mean a thing because some find it enormously helpful, I don't like broccoli either
I'll bet you will be surprised with your AA experience, as long as you go with an open mind and go to several... And if you are like many, you'll be looking forward to the next and you'll quit worrying about "having" to go, you'll want to...
Nice to see you here, thanx for your post... Hope you didn't find mine excessively negative, you asked what AAers thought... well it's OK, the spiral steps and all, but it ain't AA.
Mark
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
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Originally Posted by Cubile75
I personally don't like your spiral steps... but that's OK, I, personally don't find DBT to be helpful... doesn't mean a thing because some find it enormously helpful, I don't like broccoli either ;
I wish there were more groups out there, and ones that met at later times.....I think after looking back, I will keep just trying this on my own, I long for support, but don't need the kinds of fights/attitudes I sense are lurking about AA. Sorry if this ruffles any feathers, but I did get a little sick of all these posts about how people didn't like my spiral steps, or didn’t see why I might like them......I can't see why you'd have to go out of your way to make a person feel that their way is not as good as your way. I wanted to talk about my version of the steps, not be told they are wrong, and it’s sad to see that nobody much cares to have a discussion of them, so much as to just dismiss them.
And then the other problem: How do you find meetings that fit your schedule, when you get out of work past mid-night? Can't find any meetings that late, period, AA, Agnostic AA, or anything, and that is when I feel like I need support the most.
HP
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Colorado
Posts: 1,167
Well I'm sober and do A.A. I've read through all the posts and just want to say that I think you are right.
You do not want to do A.A. and would probably not like the fellowship of A.A. either because... sooner or later, you're gonna come across that guy that wants to line out out on the 12 steps and... you just don't want that.
I'd say give your spiral steps a shot. If you can get and stay sober on it, do it. If you want support in it, it would probably most likely be in the secular threads. As you see, there's a number of posters and mods in here who don't do/need A.A. Your steps 5 and 10 enable looking at the good as well as the unsaleable items, right? So look at some of the posters on here that do agree with you and not so much the ones who don't... or the one's who just have a different method.
Welcome to recovery and go well.
You do not want to do A.A. and would probably not like the fellowship of A.A. either because... sooner or later, you're gonna come across that guy that wants to line out out on the 12 steps and... you just don't want that.
I'd say give your spiral steps a shot. If you can get and stay sober on it, do it. If you want support in it, it would probably most likely be in the secular threads. As you see, there's a number of posters and mods in here who don't do/need A.A. Your steps 5 and 10 enable looking at the good as well as the unsaleable items, right? So look at some of the posters on here that do agree with you and not so much the ones who don't... or the one's who just have a different method.
Welcome to recovery and go well.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by HuskyPup
Well, 'personally', I don't like your 12 steps, but that's me; I just didn't see the need to go ahead and proclaim it the way you did, until now, when I thought of how silly it sounded, the use of 'personally', and all, as this isn't a view you'd normally share, but in this case, personally, you would.
I think I could live better with a version like this, just wondering how amenable AAers are to such things
Sorry I offended... I was trying to say that this is what works FOR ME... If I sounded snobby or elitist... please accept my apologies... I guess I should look at how I word things...
Mark
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