NoelleR

I posted the following in the alcoholism 12-step support forum and thought it might do well to do so here also.....as I've seen the subject broached on this forum also.........least I believe I remember seeing it broached.....could just be my 'sometimers' actin' up agin..... (o:

Recently I have read, and even participated in, many threads with posters stating what AA is; what AA is not; what an AA group should do; what an AA group should not do......the list goes on and on.

It doesn't matter what I say or think about AA; it doesn't matter what any individual says or thinks about AA; it doesn't matter what a group calling itself an AA group says or thinks; it doesn't even matter what one believes was meant by Bill W or Dr Bob, or any of the founders.....for me the bottom line is usually found on AA's website (Alcoholics Anonymous). This is what AA says.

While searching for AA's sponsorship (Questions and Answers About Sponsorship) pamphlet, I found that it is available to be read online (in PDF format); one need not purchase it. A little more research and I found that ALL the AA pamphlets are available (in PDF format) to be read online.....

One of the pamphlets I read is 'Problems Other Than Alcohol. It's only 8 (eight) pages and a very easy read, and I thought it might do well to post a link to it here.................: Alcoholics Anonymous : All one needs to do is double-click the pamphlet icon(sic)---easy enough for even me.....lol



Now, with some of this I may agree, and with some of it I may not agree, but there it is.....I guess if I disagree wholeheartedly, I could become super active in the politics of AA and work for change from within.......or I could just......Live and Let Live............ (o:


NoelleR

sailorjohn

Well, you never actually gave us your take on the subject. Do you feel AA's should welcome addicts whose drug of choice is not alcohol to their groups?

NoelleR

I guess I failed in my OP that I wasn't trying to start a debate on what we all think....agree or disagree on

My post was only to point to what AA says.

"Well, you never actually gave us your take on the subject. Do you feel AA's should welcome addicts whose drug of choice is not alcohol to their groups?"

Like I said in my OP, it doesn't mean anything what my take on the question is; I was only posting what AA has to say on the matter.....and since I am a member of AA, I guess I will agree with AA.


NoelleR

Gmoney

As a recovering addict (nonalcoholic) and NA member, I'd be the last one in the world to say what AA should or shouldn't do. Yet, there are those (in both fellowships) who will get pretty upset if you point out things like this in the literature. You'll get labeled a "Nazi" , "Police," "Bleeding Deacon" or a "Purist." Oh yeah...let's not forget "Elitest" (sp).

I fail to see how any program that's designed for a specific group or purpose, can be all things to all people. In a perfect world.....

acon4726

As a 'drug addict' who found himself with an AA sponsor (who is also a drug addict) and home group, I have given this subject a lot of thought. I feel now that I wish I started in NA, but I really have mixed feelings about it. I have had a lot of negative experiences with NA. I like the AA book, I like the people I know in AA and it works for me. So, I have stuck with AA. I believe that the 12 steps are meant to cure a spiritual sickness and that it is not important whether a persons symptom of this sickness was drugs or alcohol.

So I guess what I am really trying to say is whoever put that on the AA website can, well, shove it! :-) God is my authority before the AA website is, so they can accuse me of diverting the groups purpose or whatever but the reality is I am a member of the fellowship of the spirit and not the fellowship of AA or the fellowship of NA.

navysteve

This is a tough one. And not a new problem. I have known many addicts who sought recovery in AA for various reasons. Having lived on both coasts and in several states I can see why. We cannot be all things to all people, I am an addict, but I am also a drunk ( or, if it makes more sense to you, I am an addict who did not discriminate). I started my recovery in NA but switched over to AA, because they had what I wanted in the way of spiritual growth. The area I was in had alot of people with alot of time who behaved like newcomers, so out of self preservation, I moved where the recovery was. As I have moved around, sometimes I have stayed more in NA, I have always gone to both. I do not mix recovery talk. I do not go into meetings of AA and talk about being an addict, I do not go into NA meetings and quote the Big Book. I do feel a responsibility to attend NA meetings regularly because of the amount of addicts I see seeking recovery in AA. Where I am right now there is alot of group think mentality ( that is not a healthy thing, it allows for no opposing thoughts. That is not the whole NA program, that is where I am). So I go and look for the other misfits who do not fit in. I offer them what was given to me the way it was given. I am currently trying to find out about another fellowship (CDA), which from my limited view, seems like the AA program for addicts. But...
It does have some issues, anyway, do I think straight addicts belong in AA. No ( sorry, that is my opinion which AA literature supports) Does it happen, yes it does and I am glad it does. But such groups are not AA. They are something else altogether. I am not saying that is bad, or watered down AA. It is something else which apprently works for addicts. I agree that the spiritual malady is the same. The term disease has been expanded so much that I think it has lost its meaning. The Big Book only uses the term disease once, and calls it a spiritual disease. The twelve steps were written in twenty minutes, that sounds like divine intervention to me, which means I need divine intervention to become fully recovered ( that word). The twelve steps are designed to give me a spiritual awakening. The only steps that worked for this street junkie were the ones outlined in the big book

kj3880

I know an addict who only goes to AA and wants me to only go there too. She said to me "We don't belong with a bunch of criminals and junkies. Alcoholics are way more normal." I laughed at her so hard that my coffee came out of my nose (meeting-goer occupational hazard!). I wonder if she'll relapse because she's got herself convinced that she's better than other addicts. Pride goes before a fall, they say. I love my room full of ex-cons and junkies, some of the best folks I've ever known.
kj

navysteve

Frank Zappa said it best:

You are what you is. I stopped going to NA meetings in the Baltimore area soon after I moved down there ( and that is where I got clean). I got sick of hour-long profanity sessions where everyone tried to have a harder story. War stories and rhetoric never helped me. But I think that is sad that your friend has that attitude

navysteve

Acon said "As a 'drug addict' who found himself with an AA sponsor" Many NA members have AA sponsors. Depending on where you are. I am in a bit of a catch 22 in my area, they have requirements for service positions that you must have an NA sponsor, so it seems that I will either be half in NA here or do like I have done in other areas and eventually just stop going. I have an AA sponsor and will not trade him in. And I don't do multiple sponsors. I also don't like what I mostly see in the sponsor/sponsee relationship.

kj3880

Wow. I have to wonder what meetings you were at. It's not really like that in my area, war stories and lots of profanity, I mean. That's certainly not what "I is." There's every type of person in the meetings I go to, lawyers, doctors, bakers, and ex-cons. Really. Every type of addiction too, from alcohol to xanax (couldn't think of anything that started with Z).

Gmoney

I have been blessed to find recovery in an area that has plenty of it. When I first got clean, I attended AA meetings because that was what I was exposed to in rehab. I even recall being "forced" to admit I was an alcoholic by a chemical dependency counselor in order to complete their program (it was a state sanctioned alcohol treatment center). With the mindset of being "cross-addicted," I went to AA meetings because I had little knowledge of NA - and based on the rumors that circulated (NA is for thugs and low-lifes), I joined AA and began referring to myself as an alcoholic. Boy, was I confused.

My AA home group was an open meeting and many of the members would share openly about their past drug use. Mind you, they never got graphic or detailed, but they'd mention that drugs were also a part of their story. I thought it was cool because I was the same - but backwards - I used drugs, but alcohol is a part of my story. At around 4 months "clean & sober" I met an old friend at an AA meeting and they suggested I give NA a try. At first I balked, but after continuous prompting, I went to my first NA meeting.

Much to my surprise, it was nothing like I imagined or the rumors said it would be like. Everyone was well-mannered and polite. What I did notice as a difference was the emphasis on feelings, changing ideas and abstinence from ALL drugs. The sharing was a bit more raw, but hardly ever disrespectful or obscene. I was immediately able to identify because they knew what I had been through and what it felt like. Sure... there was a few members that I considered rude and obnoxious, but there were a few of those at the AA meetings I went to. Another thing I noticed (and liked) was that NA wasn't as religious. NA didn't define what "spiritual" was or wasn't (thank God!!).

At around 3 1/2 months, I got an NA sponsor and I continued going to both AA and NA. By the time I completed my 1st step I started to question whether I belonged in AA or NA. My sponsor never pushed me one way or the other. He told me that he also went to AA when he was new, but he did share with me that one day I'd probably make a choice. He was right (again) because it was a thorough examination of my 1st step and the initial investigation of my 4th step that revealed to me that I am not an alcoholic - I am an addict. I struggled to see myself in the words of the Big Book, but I could see myself clearly in the Basic Text. So... I slowly, but surely, weened myself away from AA meetings and I've been strictly NA for almost 9 years. I still have friends I made in AA and I visit AA meetings occassionaly, but NA is my home.

Oh yeah...I forgot to mention: when I got clean there were over 500 AA meetings in my city and 77 or 78 NA meetings. Both fellowships were strongly established in my mid-sized city and they still are. Many of the NA old-timers here (20 - 25+ years) got their start with AA sponsors and there are a number of old-timers in AA that were drug addicts. NA and AA in my area maintain a relationship of cooperation, but not affiliation.

sticker

personally I don't care what any other fellowship does or doesnt do or think. NA is and has been my home from the beginning.

Gmoney

I hear ya Sticker. But I'm sure you've caught on about the debates over whether addicts should be in AA, right? I mean...I wouldn't post NA literature in the AA forum or drag an NA argument over there, but hey....

kj3880

I agree Garry. Sharing is more raw in NA here, too. Also not so much religion in NA. I was uncomfortable with all the religion in AA. I also love how there is a lot of real hugging in NA. We just seem to really treasure each other. When I go to my home group now, I really feel at home. And I've only been going there for 2 months. I look for all the regulars to hug me when I get there and when I leave, and I feel like I've somehow been fed when the meeting's over. I can't explain the deep satisfaction and sense of belonging that these meetings bring me, it's not like anything I've ever experienced and I wouldn't give it up.
kj

Imagine

alcohol is just another drug to me, it was not my drug of choise but that did not stop me from using it daily. my problem is my refussal to accept life on life's terms. both of my fellowships address that problem. I have a chair in both. I'm an Addict, and as for me Alcoholic is just another word for Addict. When I stoped useing both, I was still sick. I didn't not start living until I starting working the program, and tring to keep it simple.

navysteve

my problem is my refussal to accept life on life's terms. both of my fellowships address that problem. I have a chair in both. I'm an Addict, and as for me Alcoholic is just another word for Addict. When I stoped useing both, I was still sick. I didn't not start living until I starting working the program, and tring to keep it simple.

I have found answers to my problems in both rooms as well. The fellowship in both rooms has sometimes been a problem but the program is always what gets me. If this was just about not using, we would only need one step, the stop using step, then everything would be ok right? Unfortunately that is not the case. I must do more. For me that means I develop a relationship with God ( not a religion), clean my house and help others. If I miss one of these three elements, I suffer

Gmoney

I only need one fellowship and one program because I only have one disease: addiction. And as I said before, my problem isn't a substance...my problem was/is me (although I initially thought it was a drug). I agree that recovery is about more than abstinence. Staying clean must come first, but after that I have work to do; changing my ideas, attitude and behaviors. For me, recovery is an inside job...it starts with me and it ends with me. Developing a relationship with a Higher Power can be something as simple as being a part of the NA Fellowship or working the 12 steps (both of which, are Powers Greater than myself). Service work can be a very rewarding part of a recovering person's process, but for me it isn't a requirement (not directly, anyway). Carrying the message is what the 12th step mentions, but I've found that the best way I carry the message is by the way that I live.

navysteve

There is only one program as I see it, The twelve steps. The ways it is worked is indeed different, but it is more different by regions than by fellowships.

Gmoney

Well Steve, I disagree...and I'll tell you why. The AA program is not the same as the NA program, although they are both based on the 12 steps.

"We have only broadened their perspective. We follow the same path with a single exception; our identification as addicts is al-inclusive with respect to any mood-changing, mind-altering substance. Alcoholism is too limited a term for us; our problem is not a specific substance, it is a disease called addiction." ~ Basic Text, page xv

The AA program deals with alcoholism, which is considered a disease in their program. NA deals with addiction, which is considered a disease in NA. AA's 12 steps addresses alcoholism and their 1st step specifically mentions alcohol. With the 1st step being the foundation of the process of surrender and alcohol the focus of the 1st admittance (powerlessness), the distinction is made and pretty clear. Even AA's 3rd Tradition specifically mentions the desire to stop "drinking" as the sole requirement for membership, while NA's 1st step mentions addiction and 3rd Tradition mentions "using" (drugs, plural). Both the 1st step and 3rd Traditions give testament to the distinctions between the programs of AA and NA. And as I'm sure you already know, the "Singleness of Purpose" both fellowships have are also distinct and seperate. That "single exception" is a major one, indeed.

Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous

Although I, too, have often shared that an alcoholic is no more than an addict whose drug of choice is alcohol, yet I cannot deny that addiction and alcoholism are also defined differently. I won't mention names here, but there are several AA members at SR who have posted detailed explanations of these differences in other threads. I can't recall what they are, but NA offers it's own description of what addiction is:

What is addiction?

And how each program is worked, I believe, goes even farther than regional aspects. There's diversity in application and understanding even within regional boundaries. A city neighboring my own has a very strong NA fellowship, yet they do things quite differently than they do in my area...yet only 68 miles seperate us. Although I'm not considered a "worldly" traveler, and haven't physically been outside my area very many times, I've found through my correspondence with addicts from all over the world that the program is "worked" moreso according to how it is taught than whatever regional or demographic constraints exist. I truly believe that sponsorship is the key.

"As members awaken spiritually and share with one another, the answers get woven into the fabric of the fellowship's conventional wisdom. Then, just when our thinking begins to harden into dogma, another generation comes along to challenge us and keep our perspective fresh." - NAWS Bulletin #17

As the programs as fellowships evolve, some things will change. Others will not...and they don't have to.

navysteve

I understand your point, the fellowships are different. I respectfully disagree with you that the twelve steps are not the same. Only broadened their perspective means we added to what is already there. NA did not reinvent recovery, merely fit it to meet their needs ( and rightly so, because AA was not meeting all their needs.) But the steps, simply being re-worded a bit do not make them different. I wasn't trying to engage in a debate which was I used the qualifier "as I see it". And I would submit that since many, many addicts have recovered in AA that the steps, as originally written are quite capable of treating addiction. I am not saying they are more capable, I am just saying that they are just as capable, therefore the same ( IMO). I would conced that the twelfth step would be the only one that is different because an addict can reach an addict like no one else can. And that is more than just a little important ( absolutely essential to be exact).