Moontime

to go over step work. It was awesome. The way we work the steps, we write a ton. Our first assignments we write 5 things we are willing to do a sponsees, and 5 things we expect from a sponsor, then define the 1st step with a dictionary, then we start our step work which is a worksheet passed down from Bobby R and Sydney R. I think Bobby stole it from Sydney or so the legend goes. RIP Bobby and Sydney. Anyway, we met and he was almost in tears about how recharged he is about recovery. He looked like a kid who gets the NA bug and glows. It was amazing and now I am so pumped about recovery. Funny how the two way street works. He is willing to start completely over in his steps. I thought this would be a battle as he had been stalled at step 4 for a long time, and had steps 1-3 written the way he is old sponsor had him do it. Like I do with the other men I sponsor we will continue to meet once a week and uncover the onion. Thanks for posting your thread, it gave me hope and strength that I can do this.

love and hugs,
Jason

Gmoney

That's great Jason,

Unfortunately, me and the guy I sponsor (with 23 years) may still have some differences to iron out. I think he's still under the impression that, because of his time, he doesn't have to follow directions. I have to accept my part in it because I wasn't specific in telling him what I expected him to do.

When we got together last weekend and went over a portion of his 1st step (from the step working guide), I noticed that he was giving me his answers from off the top of his head - he had not written anything. The sponsors I've had (and still have) suggest that we write. Now...mind you, I'm not discrediting his experience or knowledge of the program - and actually, some of his answers were on the money - but it wasn't until we were almost done for that session that he began to offer more that the "surface stuff." I suggested that he be more thorough and think a bit deeper instead of giving quick answers to move on. Since then, I've called him twice and left messages for him to write his answers for our next session. He hasn't called me back.

There was a pretty heated debate in our local fellowship years ago regarding whether we write the steps or not. One camp believes it isn't neccessary and that the only writing mentioned in the literature is to be done on steps 4 (the inventory) and 8 (the list). I, personally, believe that writing is therapuetic and the accepted/recommended practice of our fellowship. Here's an exceprt from the JFT that supports this view:

"Writing can be rewarding, especially when working through the steps. Many members maintain a daily journal. Simply thinking about the steps, pondering their meaning, and analyzing their effect is not sufficient for most of us. There's something about the physical action of writing that helps to fix the principles of recovery in our minds and hearts."

I'm glad things are working out for you. I'm sure they will for me and my sponsee also. I just have to be more open about what I expect and accept.

Be blessed.

daydream

Garry, I think the difference between writing and not writing is like the difference between a bologna sandwich and a 1,000 item buffet. If someone is satisfied with the bologna, so be it. But I want the whole buffet! :bounce

Gmoney

I agree. Why shortchange yourself? I mean, it is about YOUR recovery, eh?
Like they say in another fellowship, "Half-measures availed us nothing."

Moontime

Garry,
Thanks! I can't imagine not writing on each step with my sponsor. I guess we are blessed to have been guided into something that works real well. Just for Today the sponsee wants to keep writing, that's a good thing.

love and hugs,
Jason

REZ

I'm not sure I would jump on someone's case for not writing about the 1st step who has 23 years of recovery. I could be that he has done plenty of writing on that step over the years. It never hurts to write more but give this guy a break. I'm not sure someone with 23 years needs to "follow directions" either, at least not in the same way that someone with 23 days or months does.

I have 23 years and I sponsor a guy who has 21 years. We talk on the phone about once a week or go out for coffee after meetings. When we talk, we usually try to deal with problems in terms of the steps and what we have learned in recovery. He isn't doing any writing about the steps at this point, as far as I can tell, but that seems okay to me. When he has a problem he wants to talk about, he seems to have a good grasp of how it relates to his defects of character and the tools of recovery.

BTW, I continue to do some writing vis-a-vis the steps. But my sponsor has not asked me to do this; it has been on my own initiative, because I understand that you get a lot out of writing stuff down.

Gmoney

Well...that's kinda my whole point. On top of that...I find it to be a major difference between someone who has over 20 years that has continuously been involved in the program and the fellowship (like you Rez) as compared to someone who stopped going to meetings when they had 6 or 7 years clean.

This guy never completed all 12 steps and hasn't done ANY writing over the years. I mean, like, in over 16 years!!!! And as far as giving him a break goes...I believe I am doing that. I did agree to be his sponsor, not have him sponsor me. So if he has no need to follow directions (regarding step work), what does he need a sponsor for? And by no means am I "jumping on his case." As I previously said:

I haven't had the opportunity to share with him what I've shared here because he hasn't returned my calls. But when I do, I'll simply suggest that he give writing a try so that he can dig deeper and get more out of his step work.

The same directions that apply to someone with 23 days or 23 months applies to someone with 23 years, IMO. And that, simply, is to be thorough in your step work. I fail to see how his clean time disqualifies him from this or gives him a free pass. Yet, he is free to do whatever he wishes. The quality of his recovery will be revealed by the effort he puts forth and his willingness to be open...not his 23 years (IMO).

REZ

Garry:
It's good that he admitted to you that he hasn't been doing much. Obviously, he needs to do more. The more you put into this program, the more you get out of it.

Gmoney

Thanks Rez...I believed if I offered more info, you'd get what I was saying. And you're so right! We get out of this thing what we put into it. There's a saying in the rooms in my area that, "You can't recover on yesterday's efforts. Each day we have to do the work."

What I get from that is that I can't coast or sit back using my clean time as a cushion. Even the BT tells us that recovery requires continuous effort, and without it, we start the downhill run.

My opinion is that he's missed so much over the years, he needs to apply himself instead of skimming the surface.

navysteve

Hi All,
This topic has always intrigued me. How people practice the steps. I have to tell you that I have done very little writing (in NA or AA). I am a real addict, don't need to qualify. When I got clean I could not read, so...
My first sponsor ( who was an NA member) guided me through the Basic Text, but we did not write. I did do a written 4th, and something of a written 8th. My girlfriend uses alot of the NA step guides. I personally find them to be over- complicating a simple process. I do not mean any offense to anyone about this. I stayed over in AA after a few years because it seemed simpler, more common sense approach. Writing about how I am powerless revealed no new insight to me. I knew when i got here. Writing about a power greater than myself revealed nothing new to me. I knew you people( many of you anyway) had something I didn't...

I walked away from meetings for a few years and in some respects have felt lost in the rooms since coming back. In NA I seem to be something little better than a social pariah because I do not say the right things. WHich in my opinion is that I do not parrot the right catch phrases, I do not engage in sponsor/ clean time worship/ and I do not believe I need a meeting. I do believe that I need a higher power. I do believe I need to clean up the wreckage of my past ( and some times present) and I MUST help others. I am happy and content today. The steps have shown me this. I have alot of joy in my life. I still go to meetings in the hopes that I can be of help. In AA I am ok because I do not bring my other stuff into that fellowship ( which I believe in ) in NA I am an outsider. I question whether or not I should keep going. When people hear me share, they seem to want to talk with me. After the meeting when they investigate ( I believe you can work the steps much quicker than most people in NA I have known) they seem put off. I do have an AA sponsor. I have no problem with that. It is about growing spiritually, not using. But, this too has been an issue where I am. I get questioned about what message I am carrying. I do not quote the Big Book in NA meetings. I have great respect for the Basic Text. I do not believe in the step writing guide and I choose to read a third edition Basic Text. I never bitch about the program, I realize it has saved many. But how many are lost?

Gmoney

Hi all,

Just an update. I spoke with my sponsee last night after the meeting and suggested that he give writing a shot. He seemed very open to the suggestion and even expressed that he had already considered it. We made a date for this coming Saturday to go over whatever he has done since our last meeting. Things are looking good.

G

Gmoney

Hi Steve,

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are different methods and perspectives on how step work is to be done in NA. Although we have a fairly new tool to use (the step working guides), it isn't uniformly accepted, nor does it have to be. For me, compared to the old worksheets that circulated around the fellowship when I first got clean, the step guides can be intimidating or overwhelming for some. And as I stated in another thread, what's confusing, complicated or intimidating for some may be pretty elementary, fundamental or simplistic for others. We all don't come into recovery with the same reading, writing or comprehension abilities.

I respect your point of view and understand where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that your remarks insinuate that the AA way of approaching step work (if there is only one???) is somehow better, or as you put it, a "simpler, more common sense approach." As an addict in recovery and a member of NA, I'm not offended by your opinion. Yet, I'm inclined to believe that what you see as simpler and more sensible is merely different. It could be a possibility that they are different because they deal with seperate diseases: alcoholism and addiction. And since the disease of addiction is all-inclusive and NA's perspective regarding the 12 steps is much broader than AA's...it's only natural the NA's program be more comprehensive. Don't you think?

"Alcoholism is too limited a term for us; our problem is not a specific substance, it is a disease called addiction." ~ Basic Text, page xv

Writing about powerlessness may not have offered any insight for you, but it did for me. Through my writing, I was able to get past the obvious symptom of drugs and take a deeper look at how powerlessness applies in a variety of other areas of my life. A superficial 1st step discussion about a drink or a drug wouldn't do it for me. Through writing I was able to discover that not only am I powerless over drugs, but I'm also powerless over my disease as well. I could talk about how writing helped me by going through all 12 steps, but I won't. I'll just say that the qoute I provided earlier in this thread is a prime example of the importance of writing. Does that mean everyone should do it? I can't say. What I do believe is that some are unwilling and just rationalize or justify their unwillingness. I've met numerous NA members who didn't know how to read or write when they got clean. Now some of them are college graduates with professional careers. Hmmm......

Wow. I don't know you, but I do know that there are many people who attend numerous fellowships. And sometimes, when they are asked to speak, they'll mix the messages they've received from these various programs. This may be why you feel you say the wrong things (you just may) and feel like an outsider in NA. You don't have to quote the BB for NA members to know that your sharing is AA based or AA biased. It probably comes out whether you realize it or not. And as far as the other stuff you mentioned goes, in NA, we differ in degree of sickness and rate of recovery. How quickly a member progresses in their step work is not a program thing, it's a personal and individual issue. There is no race or trophy given. Sponsors and clean time isn't worshiped...they're appreciated and respected. And any member that feels the "need" to attend meetings is entitled to whatever they feel.

Hmmm... sounds a bit contradictory to me. You don't believe you need meetings, but you believe you must help others by going to meetings? Maybe I misunderstand. But, in NA, we believe that the only way to keep what we have is by giving it away. It's 12th step and 5th Tradition stuff, you know? I carry the message whenever I attend a meeting, whether I share or not. Just my pressence provides a "hope shot" for the addict that still suffers. And since sharing is a basic tool of the program, my sharing of ES&H helps those who are willing to receive what I offer. Do I need to go to meetings? I'd say yes because I want to keep what I have (which is a lot today) and continue to receive - because I don't have all the answers.

Probably the same amount from ANY program or fellowship.

navysteve

I respect your point of view and understand where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that your remarks insinuate that the AA way of approaching step work (if there is only one???) is somehow better, or as you put it, a "simpler, more common sense approach."

Definitely did not mean to come off that way. As I said, my girlfiend uses those guides. I have read them and they are not for me.

And as far as saying the wrong thing in meetings. I move every few years ( occupational hazard) and where I am now seems very foreign to me.

Wow. I don't know you, but I do know that there are many people who attend numerous fellowships. And sometimes, when they are asked to speak, they'll mix the messages they've received from these various programs. This may be why you feel you say the wrong things (you just may) and feel like an outsider in NA.

I simply share my experience, strength and hope. To do otherwise would be a lie. But I understand what you are saying. I do not believe I do. Especially since I got my start in NA.

Hmmm... sounds a bit contradictory to me. You don't believe you need meetings,

I may be getting caught up in semantics here. I hear the same stuff in AA meetings ( meeting makers make it) A meeting never fixed me. Working with others did. And yes, I meet others at meetings.

As far as treating my disease and being more broad than AA. I sought professional help for my living problems. I have no doubt that writing about these things has helped you. Does that make me not an addict if it didn't????? I believe the part we treat with the steps is the spiritual malady.

It may be the area I am in. It is very small and there seems to be a lock-step mentality. The steps have liberated me. I came in the rooms as I said, illiterate. Today I am working on my Masters Degree. I have a wonderful life. In AA meetings I feel like a piece is missing. Right now, where I am I feel lost in NA. I stopped going in my last area I lived because I felt this way.

Oh and not writing isn't any rationalization. I just know what worked for me, and continues to work. I have taken men through the steps and seen it work miracles.


As I said, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am looking for answers/experience in this area. I appreciate your response

Gmoney

Like other threads here at SR, this one has taken a major turn...but that's okay by me. I think it's healthy to discuss a variety of subjects on a thread, that is, unless there's a specific problem someone is seeking help for.

I hear you in regard to the slogans or catch-phrases used by members. I've never said "meeting makers make it" but I do understand what is meant by the phrase. It says in the NA Basic Text, that "those who attend meetings regularly stay clean." I suppose someone could twist that excerpt into the one you mentioned pretty easily. What I've learned to do is not take everything I hear or see in the fellowship as a black or white issue. I also have to remind myself often that general statements are just that...general.

"Because of the variety of addicts found within our Fellowship, we approach the solution contained in this book in general terms." ~ Basic Text, page vx

And unlike yourself, working with others didn't fix me. You see, I came to understand that my problem wasn't a specific substance...my problem was me. My disease never resided in a bottle, syringe or a bag. My disease lives in my ideas and my attitude (and resulting behaviors). And it was working the steps and developing a relationship with a Higher Power that fixed me. How I stay "fixed" is by improving that relationship and carrying the message: whether that be by attending meetings, sharing my ES&H, or through sponsoring others who are looking to get "fixed."

Many people in recovery seek outside help for a bunch of different issues. For me, my "living problems" were all addressed once I started living the program. And, no...just because you chose not to write didn't disqualify you from being an addict. I don't understand why you'd even ask that question, unless you're being sarcastic. You already kow the answer, and I'd hope you'd give me enough credit to know better.

"Although physical and mental tolerance play a role, many drugs require no extended period of use to trigger allergic reactions. Our reaction to drugs is what makes us addicts, not how much we use." ~ Basic Text, page 5

Also, unlike some other programs, in NA, we address EVERY aspect of our disease, and our disease is three-fold (physical, mental and spiritual). Addiction is a physical, mental and spiritual disease that affects EVERY area of our lives. And being as familiar with NA as you are, I assumed you'd know that. The spiritual "malady," as you say, is only one aspect the steps correct in NA. With self-centeredness/self-obsession being the spiritual core of our disease, only addressing it would still leave obsession and compulsion. And just as spiritual principles are never in conflict with one another, I can't "treat" one area of my disease without treating the rest.

As I said, no offense taken. But since this is a Narcotics Anonymous/12 Step Forum, I find it truly important to offer an alternative perspective to anything that can be deemed as a deterrent to someone seeking help in NA. NA works and it works very well. It's a simple program for complicated addicts.

Be blessed,
GarryW

Moontime

Hi Steve,
For me writing reveals so much to me. I have a lot of stuff talking back and forth in my head. When I get it on paper it allows new information in. I am able to listen a little bit better. When I got clean I saw people who had want I wanted. They had serenity, they were comfortable in their own skin. They were laughing, enjoying life. They said if I want what they have I would do what they did. I followed their direction and writing is part of how they got to where they are. Today, I am serene, comfortable in my own skin and I'm clean and free.

navysteve

Sorry to get you guys off track. It seems like we are talking different languages here. I do understand the three fold idea. That is not unique to NA. And I do understand that I am the problem, the drugs were merely a symptom. I do not want to be s deterrent. I was merely asking questions. If this was the wrong format, I am sorry.

navysteve

And I do not doubt that Moontime. I am glad it works for you. As I said earlier, my girlfriend uses the guides and they work for her. I look at them and see overcomplication.I have had all those problems as well. And I am very comfortable in my own skin and my way of working the steps is quite simple. I do not believe that we are complicated people as was said earlier.

Jimmy123

Remember how in the old days people were either smart or stupid, the they added learning disabled then they developred the disabilities and elaborated even further? then they finaly realized that maybe some people just learn differently than others. Why is it my brother can do long division instantly in his headand took linear algebra in 8th grade but he has trouble reading a stop sign. the simple answer is we all learn differently and we also recover differently if we had a universal system that worked for everyone we wouldn't have addicts this does not mean he is right that he doesn't need to wright it down maybe he's just easing into it what ever it is just know people were not made from cookie cutters

Gmoney

I said the same thing Jimmy. Different isn't better, worse, simpler or more complicated... it's just different. What some see as complicated, others see as simple. Some use the step guides, some use worksheets, and some never write at all. Our diversity in NA is our beauty.

Steve...what exactly is the question you were asking?