Big Book vs 12 & 12
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: my room in ct.
Posts: 58,110
Big Book vs 12 & 12
would like to tap on some of the SR A.A. er's
E, S, & H on this one
what would you say, if anything, when someone says.
"i'm sick and tired of hearing people bashing the 12 & 12"
at a Big Book Step Study
and on group level?
E, S, & H on this one
what would you say, if anything, when someone says.
"i'm sick and tired of hearing people bashing the 12 & 12"
at a Big Book Step Study
and on group level?
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
When i got to AA i tried to read the BB, i couldn't understand it...i got the 12&12 and that spoke to me in a language i could understand...
I worked the 12 steps from the BB with my sponsor which obviously contains the solution but i know the 12&12 is a very useful book indeed when you are in a fog and fresh in:-)
I worked the 12 steps from the BB with my sponsor which obviously contains the solution but i know the 12&12 is a very useful book indeed when you are in a fog and fresh in:-)
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I like the 12x12....mostly for the same reason Yeah said above, I understood it better when I first got here. I also think there's some wisdom in the 12x12 that ISN'T it the BB....
To "bash" either smacks of ego (IMO) and probably doesn't belong in a meeting - and really doesn't belong at a table. If nothing else, it sure isn't attractive and will likely turn newcomers off. I think both are good.....given the choice of one, I'd take the BB now but why turn away from the 12x12? It's there and I think it makes sense to take advantage of it.
That said, if it's a BB meeting, it's a BB meeting. Ppl shouldn't be sharing about the 12x12 anymore than they should about "how their day went." - and that includes the people knocking it.
Bill had a number additional years under his belt when he wrote the 12x12.....since when is experience in AA a bad thing? I'd like to hope I know a bit more about working the program and the steps when I have 10 yrs vs now at 3.
As far as I'm concerned, there's not place for bitching in an AA meeting - whether it's coming from someone complaining about their boss or from someone complaining about the 12x12.
To "bash" either smacks of ego (IMO) and probably doesn't belong in a meeting - and really doesn't belong at a table. If nothing else, it sure isn't attractive and will likely turn newcomers off. I think both are good.....given the choice of one, I'd take the BB now but why turn away from the 12x12? It's there and I think it makes sense to take advantage of it.
That said, if it's a BB meeting, it's a BB meeting. Ppl shouldn't be sharing about the 12x12 anymore than they should about "how their day went." - and that includes the people knocking it.
Bill had a number additional years under his belt when he wrote the 12x12.....since when is experience in AA a bad thing? I'd like to hope I know a bit more about working the program and the steps when I have 10 yrs vs now at 3.
As far as I'm concerned, there's not place for bitching in an AA meeting - whether it's coming from someone complaining about their boss or from someone complaining about the 12x12.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
[QUOTE"i'm sick and tired of hearing people bashing the 12 & 12"
at a Big Book Step Study
and on group level?][/QUOTE]
At group level?....really that surprises me.
The 12x12 was not a book i used much in early recovery.....i found it heavy going and analytical.....thats what i would tell people but the truth is i struggled to understand "some" of it.
My sponsor would tell me i only need one book.....he wasnt running the 12x12 down...just trying to slow me down with all the other waffle i was reading.
I study it on occasions and it has some clarity to it now....with some experience under my belt...i still see it as a supplement..right or wrong.
do you think the fact bill was depressed/ in spiritual crisis.. is over played?
its all i hear people say with regards to the 12x12..
at a Big Book Step Study
and on group level?][/QUOTE]
At group level?....really that surprises me.
The 12x12 was not a book i used much in early recovery.....i found it heavy going and analytical.....thats what i would tell people but the truth is i struggled to understand "some" of it.
My sponsor would tell me i only need one book.....he wasnt running the 12x12 down...just trying to slow me down with all the other waffle i was reading.
I study it on occasions and it has some clarity to it now....with some experience under my belt...i still see it as a supplement..right or wrong.
do you think the fact bill was depressed/ in spiritual crisis.. is over played?
its all i hear people say with regards to the 12x12..
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hull, England.
Posts: 169
I often come across this issue on a one to one basis.
For me the twelve and twelve helps to 'meat out' the steps, giving a deeper understanding of the steps after we have done the initial work on the steps. I dont need to understand the steps when i first put in the application of them.
It continually amazes me that some AAers seem to think that open mindedness extends only to the first 164 of the BB, this attitude actually seems rather closed minded.
For me the twelve and twelve helps to 'meat out' the steps, giving a deeper understanding of the steps after we have done the initial work on the steps. I dont need to understand the steps when i first put in the application of them.
It continually amazes me that some AAers seem to think that open mindedness extends only to the first 164 of the BB, this attitude actually seems rather closed minded.
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,452
When the person expressed that they were sick and tired of hearing people bashing the 12 and 12...it must be how they feel. People can share how they feel in a meeting. I can listen, and be tolerant to whatever they say.
Was it because it was at a Big Book study, and at group level that you are asking? Like why bring up the 12 and 12?
Discussions encourage people to express what they are thinking, and so this was just how the person feels. I think we are all learning what is best shared in a meeting, and we drift off course at times. We just listen, love and serve. What else can we do.
Was it because it was at a Big Book study, and at group level that you are asking? Like why bring up the 12 and 12?
Discussions encourage people to express what they are thinking, and so this was just how the person feels. I think we are all learning what is best shared in a meeting, and we drift off course at times. We just listen, love and serve. What else can we do.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: my room in ct.
Posts: 58,110
yes it was at a BB step study, and on group level.
said party said after the meeting when i asked why?
he said
"i went to the bashers, and they continue to bash the 12 & 12 at 12 7 12 meetings"
my response was, go back to them again,
what have you learned, or not learned?
why take us hostage...
bill w, the ever promoter wrote a book on the steps as he see's it.
too bad the oxford group were so pompous
thank you for the replys
said party said after the meeting when i asked why?
he said
"i went to the bashers, and they continue to bash the 12 & 12 at 12 7 12 meetings"
my response was, go back to them again,
what have you learned, or not learned?
why take us hostage...
bill w, the ever promoter wrote a book on the steps as he see's it.
too bad the oxford group were so pompous
thank you for the replys
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
In general, any meeting share that contains the words, "I'm sick and tired..." is stuck in the problem. I try to share a solution. Except as context material, that solution does not contain my opinion or advice or evaluation of the 12x12 or any other subject matter.
'Here's how I feel about it,' just perpetuates staying stuck in the problem.
'Here's how I feel about it,' just perpetuates staying stuck in the problem.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
The Big Book is a collection of the first 100 members experience and how our Fellowship came to be. It speaks to what "they" did and what they suggest to others that they might do if they want to find a sober life. It is for this reason that the latter part of the book is filled with individual stories. I have always felt that the Big Book is a door that I can open in order to find my way into a world of sobriety and out of a world of alcohol and misery.
The 12 & 12 is a "study" of the individual steps and traditions and it is a resource to use when we try and analyze and understand a particular step or tradition. There are discussions about the steps and how the step will be important in building a firm foundation upon which I can erect a sane, sober abode.
I have always seen both books as resource material that I have at my disposal as I address life's challenges and they are available to me courtesy of men and women who have faced similar situations.
It isn't an either/or, but more of a compliment one to another. These books are both there for my edification and education, IF I CHOOSE TO USE THEM.
Just my experience,
Jon
The 12 & 12 is a "study" of the individual steps and traditions and it is a resource to use when we try and analyze and understand a particular step or tradition. There are discussions about the steps and how the step will be important in building a firm foundation upon which I can erect a sane, sober abode.
I have always seen both books as resource material that I have at my disposal as I address life's challenges and they are available to me courtesy of men and women who have faced similar situations.
It isn't an either/or, but more of a compliment one to another. These books are both there for my edification and education, IF I CHOOSE TO USE THEM.
Just my experience,
Jon
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Rusty Zipper 
what would you say, if anything, when someone says.
"i'm sick and tired of hearing people bashing the 12 & 12"
at a Big Book Step Study
and on group level?
Also, I would ask them if they have a sponsor and what step they are on. Fighting resentments over how other people feel about something is a clue that I'm trying to place expectations on others and not let God have that call. I view it as a Step Three 'HELLO' moment.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: my room in ct.
Posts: 58,110
love it bole
as i will be leading the next cycle of the step study,
what comes to mind after all of your wondeful replys...
"A Vision For You"
thanks again, i knew you would help.
Until Then
as i will be leading the next cycle of the step study,
what comes to mind after all of your wondeful replys...
"A Vision For You"
thanks again, i knew you would help.
Until Then
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,006
I am in my first year, and I find the 12 & 12 resonates more with me.
The Big Book seems to come from a place of already being recoverd. The 12 & 12 seems to talk about what it felt and the issues that arose while recovering.
The Big Book seems to come from a place of already being recoverd. The 12 & 12 seems to talk about what it felt and the issues that arose while recovering.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by spryte
I
The Big Book seems to come from a place of already being recoverd. The 12 & 12 seems to talk about what it felt and the issues that arose while recovering.
The Big Book seems to come from a place of already being recoverd. The 12 & 12 seems to talk about what it felt and the issues that arose while recovering.
I learned to understand a lot of the steps out of the 12x12....but I learned how to WORK them and incorporate them into my life in the BB.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,386
If the literature is AA approved there's really no room for criticism. Whatever works for that person to help them stay sober.
Personally, I'm a fan of the 12 & 12 but not a big fan of 12 & 12 meetings. The reason being is I find that people at 12 & 12 meetings tend to philosophize about the steps but aren't really doing them. There's really no action required in the 12 & 12.
Plus if there's someone there for their first meeting that may be the only message that they'll ever hear. And if that message doesn't require any action then they may think they don't really have to take any action in order to stay sober.
There is, however, some good information on the steps in the 12 & 12. The 4th step explains the instincts well and the eleventh step has the St. Frances prayer. And I think the 12 & 12 can be useful as long as it's used to complement the BB, not the other way around.
Personally, I'm a fan of the 12 & 12 but not a big fan of 12 & 12 meetings. The reason being is I find that people at 12 & 12 meetings tend to philosophize about the steps but aren't really doing them. There's really no action required in the 12 & 12.
Plus if there's someone there for their first meeting that may be the only message that they'll ever hear. And if that message doesn't require any action then they may think they don't really have to take any action in order to stay sober.
There is, however, some good information on the steps in the 12 & 12. The 4th step explains the instincts well and the eleventh step has the St. Frances prayer. And I think the 12 & 12 can be useful as long as it's used to complement the BB, not the other way around.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: my room in ct.
Posts: 58,110
IMO,
the BB and 12 & 12 are kind of like Ralph and Alice,
what would life be like without one or the other.
and thank you all again.
ohoh,
my first real meeting, bombed stoned drunk was a big book meeting,
i had no clue what you guys were talking about.
my first non-bombed meeting,
i had no clue what you guys were talking about.
in the almost eight years later of reading, working,
and living those both books
i love what you guys are talking about.
the BB and 12 & 12 are kind of like Ralph and Alice,
what would life be like without one or the other.
and thank you all again.
ohoh,
my first real meeting, bombed stoned drunk was a big book meeting,
i had no clue what you guys were talking about.
my first non-bombed meeting,
i had no clue what you guys were talking about.
in the almost eight years later of reading, working,
and living those both books
i love what you guys are talking about.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
I got here late,but I believe ,according to my experience,the big book is the book for beginners and later on the 12x12
nothing wrong with a bunch of alkies studying on how to stay sober and get better,it sure beats us sitting around studying how to get drunk,so,both can help
nothing wrong with a bunch of alkies studying on how to stay sober and get better,it sure beats us sitting around studying how to get drunk,so,both can help
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
I'm the type of person that likes to highlight my favorite passages in the books that I intend to keep and reread. My Big Book has about 100 passages highlighted where my 12 & 12 has about 15. That tells me there are more gold nuggets of wisdom in the Big Book.
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