Morning Glory

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (“AAWS”) does not grant permission to reprint segments of its literature online, with the exception of overseas A.A. General Service Offices so posts containing AA literature will be removed. Posts containing AA literature will no longer be allowed.

You are allowed to link to literature on the AA site as long as you post the following disclaimer with your link:

Linked with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.

Thanks to all members who have
read and shared in these daily threads.

Regrettfully.....SR Administrators
and Forum Team members.

JustOneMan

Lest politics, power and prestige divert us from our primary purpose...

Above typed without anyone's permission...

Sugah

That's really unfortunate. I will be asking some questions of my area delegate.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

RufusACanal

"Oh how pious thou art". Action is necessary.

RufusACanal

If I never considered the need to work on the level of GSO service, today is the day.

findingout

Just to clear up my own confusion, does this new development apply to individual members quoting passages from the big book and/or the 12 and 12 with appropriate credit given? Or just the incredibly useful reprints from A.A. literature that were formerly posted on a daily basis?

RufusACanal

Just to be clear, I more than appreciate SR's position to not infringe on copyrighted material and I will not use AA literature here in any reprinted form. I will though, contact GSO and I will finally bring the debate out into the open concerning this ridiculous proprietary franchise of AA material by GSO. Why we continue to charge money for the Big Book, the Twelve and Twelve, Living Sober and other “approved literature” is beyond me. No justification that I presently can entertain is worthy of the malicious denial of information via copyright law. If continues to be about some needed revenues for GSO solvency, then we need to find another way. This is not a new argument, but it is much more apparent today that the freedom to extend the hand of recovery is denied by the hand grasping for another buck.

jimhere

My position as well. This certainly puts a kibosh on things here at SR. I was going to ask the question about quoting the literature as well, but it has already been asked.

There can be no really meaningful discussion on a forum that is largely composed of AA members without refering to the literature. Most of our discussion is composed of our sharing experience with what the literature says or even of whether or not we are in agreement with what it says. I don't know about any one else, but I find it hard to share my experience with Alcoholics Anonymous without refering to the literature.

This really just another example of AAWS, Inc. saying it owns spiritual principles. The basic text of the Big Book is public domain, we lost the copyright to it in (corect me if I'm wrong here) 1967 due to our own irresponsibility. AAWS, Inc. wasn't paying attention and it lapsed.

This brings to mind the German and Mexican litigations in the mid nineties. The service structures in both countries tried to prevent groups from printing and distributing copies of the basic text. I won't go into all the details, but both service entities had the backing, including hired legal counsel, of "big brother" AAWS, Inc. In Mexico, about thirteen hundred groups broke away and formed their own service structure. They opened an office and printed and distributed the basic text. This was provided wither at cost or free gratis to Mexican AA's. The structure was and is entirerly supported by the voluntaty contributions of it's own members, not literature sales. This in the spirit of the Seventh Tradition, which is basically trust in God. In 1996, the Mexican Federales raided the offices of Section Mexico (the new structure), consficated the literature and shut the office down. One fellow AA member was imprisoned for a year. This was all done with financial (OUR Seventh Tradition contributions) and legal backing (once again paid for with OUR contributions) from AAWS, Inc. and GSO. I won't say anymore but there is a website called GSO Watch that is ran by some AA members I know. I don't know the url, but just google "GSO Watch" if you want to know more.
Jim

RufusACanal

Damn good post Jim. I had purposed shelved my feelings on this topic for a variety of reasons, but have found of late that the behavior of AAWS is wrong and I can no longer maintain a stance of denial concerning their continued destructive positions.

bonsai12

I was just on the AA web page does this mean Like photos of coins and books that belong to AA as well. Like Ruffus here with the AA books as his avitar?

© Copyright 2008
Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
"Graphic images may not be downloaded, copied or duplicated without the express written permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc."

So as long as I download it off the AA web page and put the discalimer I should be ok?

jimhere

It would be one thing if GSO would simply admit their mistake and make amends for it. But ask any trustee or delegate who was serving at the time who supported these actions and they will either whitewash it or deny it ever took place. I've been unable to even get a straight answer from the people I've asked about it.

From personal experience, I know the results of waiting for someone to make amends, so I've basically let it go and support GSO as little as possible. The only money that comes out my pocket that goes there is through my home group. If I didn't feel an obligation to support my group, not one dime from me would go to GSO. I haven't bought any new literature in years. I don't and won't own a fourth edition. And I am getting damn tired of my delegate constantly bringing pleas for more from New York. It is always the birthday plan or something like that.

Maybe it its time the we as groups and as individual AA members started voting with the power of the purse. Bill talks about that in the service manual and my group has done it before. We've withheld our contributions to the district because we felt that it was using Seventh Tradition funds for something other than a stated AA purpose. It made a difference, as our group is one of the larger contributors to the district.
Jim

Morning Glory

Our main concern right now is the daily readings.

When we had a heated discussion on the NA forum the owner of SR did ask us to remove copyrighted avatars so that probably still stands.

Here is a link to the Intellectual Properties Policy. It includes the protected trademarks and logos.

Alcoholics Anonymous

bonsai12

So let me get this straight you would withhold your contribution from AA because you can’t post something on SR without a stupid disclaimer. You’re really that upset about this?

sugErspun

So - if we qoute the literature and source it properly (like a bibliography), SR will be safe?

I am going to only qoute non-approved literature moving forward (but would still like to be able to use BB references) There's plenty of good 'AA' which is not AAWS approved literature.


Can you post what was received from AAWS about what members are posting on this site?

sugErspun

ooooh...we should be ok in posts.

Reprint Policy
"Our reprint policy, however, is different from our licensing policy. As stated in The A.A. Service Manual: “Local A.A. publications are permitted to quote a phrase, sentence or brief paragraph excerpted from A.A. literature such as The Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, The A.A. Service Manual and Conference-approved pamphlets without a prior, written request to do so…, (accompanied by a credit line (that) should read: Reprinted from (name of publication, page number), with permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.)” Non-A.A. individuals and entities may not reprint A.A. copyrighted materials without prior approval granted pursuant to a written request."

Alcoholics Anonymous


It states how a credit line 'should' read - not how it must read, or that it MUST be present whatsoever.

Next we can argue if posting a paragraph from a book on an online forum is actually 're-printing' ...IMO it is not..reprinting implies bad faith - $$ gain...which here, for the members, there is none.

jimhere

Yes. But I'm not upset in the way you see it. I don't have a resentment. But maybe it is time we stopped worshipping the sacred cow that is called GSO. It is not about whether I can quote something on SR or not. It goes way beyond that. Look into it yourself, don't take my word for it.

It is about principle. Get a copy of the Service Manual/12 Concepts for World Service. Read Concept Twelve-all of it. The warranties of the conference charter spell it out. In Germany, the German judge took the the time to read up and become educated about the Traditions and concepts and threw the case out of court, admonishing the German service structure and AAWS, Inc. for not adhering to it's own principles.

If you as an AA member are not concerned, that is called apathy. Bill said that the greatest danger to AA as a society would not come from without, but from within. The danger is being "tyranized by an ill-informed, hasty, angry, majority." (quoted without permission directly from Concept V). He also said that apathy is one of the greatest dangers to any society. That ias why the minority voice is so important. It is not only our right as AA members, but our duty to speak up. If that doesn't change things, then it is my duty to let it go.

Quite frankly, I can leave contemporary mainstream AA and be OK. There will always be alcoholics to work with. God will show me how to create the fellowship I crave. If AA as it is known today fades away, I'll be OK. But what about my kids and grandkids? What about your kids and grandkids? What about the alcoholic that is not born yet that may need what I have so often taken for granted? Wouldn't you want them to have the same shot at this that you did?
Jim

jimhere

So my question is:

Was SR contacted by GSO/AAWS, Inc. and requested to not post this material?

Has there been implied threat of punitive litigation?

Morning Glory

We had a disgruntled member contact AA so I emailed asking for permission.

This is the email I received.


Thank you for your recent email requesting permission to reprint A.A. material for inclusion on your message forum.

Unfortunately, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (“AAWS”) does not grant permission to reprint segments of its literature on online, with the exception of overseas A.A. General Service Offices.

On the other hand, we would have no problem with your linking to any or all of the items on our site - these include “The AA Fact File,” “Is AA For You?” “A Newcomer Asks,” and “A Message to Teenagers.” If you are not familiar with it, the address of our site is Alcoholics Anonymous.

If you decide to link to our site, we ask that you use the following disclaimer:

Linked with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.

If you agree with the above, AAWS would have no objection to your linking to their website. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

Morning Glory

We are considered non-AA individuals and entities.

bonsai12

Who is WE is that SR or us the forum user? Sorry using I statements does not apply here.