bill2983

I have been in meetings for a number of years. I told my sponsor about this, and he didn't say specifically it was a relapse, but I'm not sure. I know most people would say it's not, but to me, it might be. I have been drugs and alcohol free for a number of years, and I hadn't used nicotine for a number of years. Anyways, several time in the past year, beginning once on a late night drive, I have used chewing tobacco. Because I hadn't used nicotine for years it definitely caused a euphoric effect, and I found myself repeating the experience a number of times, and using it addictively (once an hour for days at a time, feeling like i was craving it). There's no medical reason for me to use nicotine, and it definitely altered my mood and mind, which is the definition we use, particularly because I hadn't used any nicotine for years. Thoughts?

Dee74

Hi Bill

I guess it's down to what you class as your addictions and what youre in recovery from.

Whatever you decide on the relapse thing, it definitely sounds like you should step away from the tobacco if you're using it compulsively?

Ken33xx

Not too long ago an AA member told another member he needed to stop smoking. The smoker told him to mind his own business. Which is how I feel.

Unless you believe chewing tobacco will lead to other addictions I`d be more concerned about the health hazards of such a habit.

But that`s your call.

IvanMike

Relapse? As an NA member I'd say no.

Is it as bad idea? Yes.

bill2983

Thank you all for your responses. I am in NA. My primary drugs were alcohol and opiate. I know most people don't think it is a relapse, but I struggle to understand how it is not. Here's why I feel guilty: I used a drug (nicotine) with no legitimate reason besides to feel the desired effect, and it did alter my mood and mind. And I repeated the experience, and there was craving. So, if that's not a relapse, what is? When I've talked to some people they say they never stole, lied, etc. for cigarettes, but I never did those things for pot and I still don't smoke pot and would obviously consider smoking pot a relapse as would most everyone else.

Timebuster

Examine your motives.

I quit tobacco in 2005 and boy let me tell you I still get the urges to light up. My mind tells me that first cigarette would be amazing. Get that quick buzz from not having a cigarette for so long. Then my addict mind will justify another and before you know it I'm hooked on nicotine again.
Hence, where the guilt comes from.

Here's a link that might be helpful speaks about nicotine and caffeine as mind altering substances.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...substance.html

bill2983

Thanks TimeBuster. Interesting on the "guilt" aspect. Thank you.

I read the thread. Most people seem to be saying some variation of "I didn't do crazy things for cigarettes, etc.". For me, I never did anything crazy for pot or had problems in everyday functioning, but no one would say pot is ok (and I have no desire, I'd probably have a panic attack). It's not really reasonable. I think we've sanctioned these drugs because they are socially accepted within our community. I think perhaps as an organization we need to be more honest, and admit these are drugs we use to change how we feel. How many of us balked at the idea of "no drugs or alcohol" as too high a bar when first introduced to the concept? But I'm not going to get a white key tag because I feel like it would probably upset others or come off as me judging them, which I'm not.

IvanMike

My rule of thumb tends to be if it is a controlled substance, it's a white keytag drug.

Even things like Dextromethorphan Hydrobromide are controlled to an extent depending upon age, so if you drink a bottle of cough syrup to get high, it's a relapse. Then again, if you huff whippets it's a relapse to me as well.

I don't consider energy drinks a relapse either, but i won't drink them as I found myself feeling different when i did.

Learn from the experience and move on. You're going to find yourself using a lot of other things to change the way you feel. (See page 14 in it works how and why). Part of what we do is to keep an eye out for that and alter our behavior before it gets us into trouble.

bill2983

Thank you Ivan Mike. I've been in recovery for 9 years and have not used drugs beyond caffeine and nicotine. I just haven't hears any definition of why nicotine is ok that wouldn't also allow anyone to smoke a little pot, or drink a couple beers, and that's a problem for me personally. I fear this will be a point of contention for me, and I have not heard a well reasoned argument for why these drugs are ok which makes me wonder about the fellowship. Most of us would not want to be in a fellowship with other people who were using what they considered drugs. That's not a judgment, as I said I drink caffeine daily. But denial runs deep in addicts and I think there's a mass cultural denial in NA that people are not using drugs who are in fact using drugs simply for the pleasure they bring, and they, we, are certainly hooked, which calls the whole thing into question for me. Imagine if more than half of the folks at the meeting you were at met your definition of relapse. It would effect your recovery I imagine. That's where I'm at.

IvanMike

Hey, half (or more) of the people at meetings aren't working the steps.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my recovery.

Dee74

I'd try and not get too caught up in what other people are doing Bill.

People I know smoke, drink, eat chocolate...it's none of my business.

I can only run my own life, not someone else's

If chewing tobacco is something you want to stop, then stop it

D

bill2983

I did stop. But it's been bugging me. Is it a relapse? Or is there no uniform definition of a relapse? If it's totally personal than could I drink a couple beers (I won't) and achieve a mild buzz like nicotine and still collect my 10 years in december? If not, why not? I don't really see the difference between that and nicotine.

Dee74

All I can add is I hope you can resolve your differences with NA, Bill

D

bill2983

Thank you. Perhaps I will go to Nicotine Anonymous but I don't even smoke anymore. I just want to practice rigorous honesty, and when I engaged in a behavior that had no legitimate medical purpose to change the way I felt, using a drug...if I didn't insert nicotine everyone would assume that's a relapse. Any definition of relapse you use nicotine fits in, and yet we don't consider it because of group think, and that seems a structural problem. Ultimately I can only change myself, but when I see such a major flaw in an organization I've given my life to, and which I owe my life to, I feel compelled to seek out the answers why. And I would never say this at a meeting probably because it would make people feel uncomfortable or defensive, which is not my aim.

Timebuster

Bill, maybe you need to sit down with your sponsor and revisit your fourth and fifth steps. Not because of the guilt you have now because you feel you relapse on nicotine, but to uncover something more deeper that's infringing in your recovery and serenity.

When I first came around to the rooms in 2004 I was a heavy cigarette smoker. If you would've told me when I first came around to the rooms the only way to work the Step of NA AA I had to quit all mind altering substances including nicotine and caffeine I would of said to you your freaking crazy. Eventually in 2005 I made a conscious decision to quit smoking. I love my coffee, and the caffeine buzz I get from drinking coffee in no way constitutes a relapse or my commitment to stay clean and sober.

My point is, my life has never been powerless or unmanageable because of nicotine or caffeine. It says it clearly in the first step, we admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.

Our choice of words and definitions may directly effect our conscious actions and decisions. But clearly you're obsessed with finding answers to your question by doing so your life is becoming unmanageable.

If you have problems or doubts, just call your sponsor or ask another member for help and suggestions. Try not to get discouraged or believe you're not doing enough or doing the right thing. Don't limit your questions to any individual. Talk to everyone, listen carefully to everything. Know that your understanding of the steps and how the program works will be yours and yours alone.

TB

MissNewLife

I think that your addiction might be wanting to grab on to this situation and call it a relapse so you have an excuse to go use or drink. Possible?

(This has happened to me before).

Be careful - that voice can be cunning baffling powerful and will say anything to get us to a point of thinking picking up is a good idea.

bill2983

Thank you guys for the thoughts, and the help. Unfortunately I've talked my sponsor to death on it.
A couple of things: In no way would this be some guise for me to go use. I have more awareness than that. It would be a catalyst for me to give up caffeine and nicotine in order to be able to say I'm clean, and mean it.
The fact that people may think a program without these things is too strict is not in my mind a good reason. How many have left because they wanted to drink, or just smoke a little pot, and the idea they couldn't do these seemed crazy to them. Along those lines someone may say well pot was not unmanageable for me so I'm going to smoke pot and pick up 30, 60, 90 day key tags, or drink a couple beers each night, and still pick up my clean time tags. If folks in the rooms knew about this they would not consider the person clean. NA does have some ideas about what clean is, but it violates its own words when addicts like myself continue to use substances like nicotine and caffeine and pick up key tags for multiple years. So what is the solution? I don't know. I think I am getting this push back because many folks do not want to give up these drugs (myself included), and addicts will find all sorts of ways to justify their use that when looked at honestly and objectively are mere cop outs.
There's no blame here for the individual. But I think as an organization we could do better, or at least change the words to more accurately reflect the continuing socially acceptable drug usage (obviously milder that sniffing coke or shooting dope, but so is a beer or a one hitter) in our midst. For the record I actually knew of a man in Wisconsin who got a white key tag after 7 years when he had a cup of coffee. He is a parish of one but who's to say that's not the future.
Most importantly I thank all of you who tried to help. It's appreciated!

Timebuster

I got a big time resentment not with NA as a whole but with my home group. In our business meeting it was voted 2 to 1 to switch from regular coffee to decaffeinated coffee. Man, I was bent out of shape when that vote came down lol

My first commitment was making coffee for the Wednesday night meeting. I had to arrive early to make the coffee by doing so gave me the opportunity to be around other recovery addicts who were more than happy and willing to lend an ear if I was going through something or share their recovery stories before the start of the meeting.

But to each his own, you have the right to feel the way you feel. But with that said have you done any work or studied the 12 traditions of NA?

First Tradition calls on each individual member to overlook the differences that may divide us, such as language, and focus on our common identity as unified members of a greater whole. Tradition One does not justify what one could define as self-righteous attempts to shoehorn members into certain beliefs about the propriety or impropriety of particular language. Our common welfare hinges not so much on our ability to impose uniformity as on every individual member’s willingness to surrender any defect standing in the way of unconditional acceptance

Tradition Two tells us that “true spiritual principles are never in conflict; they complement each other. The spiritual conscience of a group will never contradict any of our traditions.” The will of our ultimate authority ought to be expressed through this conscience—not the will of a few more popular individuals who may attempt to disguise political motives as spiritual ones.

The Basic Text tells us that our reaction to drugs is what makes us addicts, not what we used. The Third Tradition tells us that our desire to stop using is what makes us members, not what we say. It is not our job to pressure other members to talk or act “correctly.” We teach by example, welcoming others as they comfortably come to their own understanding of recovery, in God’s time.

TB

Mountainmanbob

As a nicotine addict I would call that a nicotine relapse.

Doing mostly cigars and tobacco pipes today.
But, if I pick up some snuff or chew I back on heavy in no time.

MB
MB

IvanMike

$5 says Timebuster thought the same thing as I did when I read the JFT today and thought about this topic and group conscience.