Anti-12 Step Venom & Resentment
Evolving Addict
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
Anti-12 Step Venom & Resentment
"The information available to us came from misinformed people." - Basic Text, page 3
The above quote comes to mind when reading some of the anti-NA remarks and comments from some of the folks here at SR, I have to conclude that what they think they know about NA is a lot, but what they actually know is very little. I doubt if they've taken the time to read the Basic Text -I mean, to see for themselves what it says instead of basing their opinions on hearsay or rumor. It's so obvious. If they read it, and understood what they read, they wouldn't make the outrageous comments they make. Some go from one extreme to another in defense of their anti-12 step stance.
Mind you, I've never been one who goes around trying to recruit members for NA, nor have I ever taken the position that NA is the only way to recover. I'm well aware that there are numerous other avenues addicts can take to find recovery. The pros and cons of those other "programs" are something I'm unaware of, and to tell the truth, I have no interest in them...one way or another. If a newcomer is having a problem staying clean, I share with them what worked for me - that's it. No sales pitch. No recruitment sermon. And I certainly don't make it a point to discredit other programs. For what?
But that's just it, if you happen to mention that you've found recovery in NA and it works for you, the NA-haters come out of the woodwork and offer every criticism they can come up with. It's like they get off on slinging mud at 12 step recovery.
A topic can be about something that has nothing to do with the 12 steps, but mention that you go to NA meetings, and here they come!! I tend to believe that some (not all) of them have some very deeply-rooted resentments against 12 step recovery and will do almost anything to discredit it. I'll toy with them for a little while (especially when their remarks are ridiculous), but after a while I can almost feel the anger, resentment and disdain behind their words. It's almost scary.
Anybody else notice this??
(no NA haters, please)
The above quote comes to mind when reading some of the anti-NA remarks and comments from some of the folks here at SR, I have to conclude that what they think they know about NA is a lot, but what they actually know is very little. I doubt if they've taken the time to read the Basic Text -I mean, to see for themselves what it says instead of basing their opinions on hearsay or rumor. It's so obvious. If they read it, and understood what they read, they wouldn't make the outrageous comments they make. Some go from one extreme to another in defense of their anti-12 step stance.
Mind you, I've never been one who goes around trying to recruit members for NA, nor have I ever taken the position that NA is the only way to recover. I'm well aware that there are numerous other avenues addicts can take to find recovery. The pros and cons of those other "programs" are something I'm unaware of, and to tell the truth, I have no interest in them...one way or another. If a newcomer is having a problem staying clean, I share with them what worked for me - that's it. No sales pitch. No recruitment sermon. And I certainly don't make it a point to discredit other programs. For what?
But that's just it, if you happen to mention that you've found recovery in NA and it works for you, the NA-haters come out of the woodwork and offer every criticism they can come up with. It's like they get off on slinging mud at 12 step recovery.
A topic can be about something that has nothing to do with the 12 steps, but mention that you go to NA meetings, and here they come!! I tend to believe that some (not all) of them have some very deeply-rooted resentments against 12 step recovery and will do almost anything to discredit it. I'll toy with them for a little while (especially when their remarks are ridiculous), but after a while I can almost feel the anger, resentment and disdain behind their words. It's almost scary.
Anybody else notice this??
(no NA haters, please)
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 204
Sorry, I have only seen the reverse.. I tell people how I have had a bad day or maybe I was a bit overstressed and automatically the friends I have that do attend AA/NA/CA/Al-Anon.. etc seem to jump on the "YOU NEED A PROGRAM"
and my favorite is when I'm feeling really good.. "I need a meeting because now I'm complacent"
I've gone to a few AA meetings and a few NA Meetings, few differences, but not many. It just wasn't for me.
and my favorite is when I'm feeling really good.. "I need a meeting because now I'm complacent"
I've gone to a few AA meetings and a few NA Meetings, few differences, but not many. It just wasn't for me.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lancaster Ohio
Posts: 81
I have heard these arguments. Im not disgruntled by them. I believe everybodys program is different. But to bash someone elses program, especially a newcomer i believe can prove deadly in some cases. This is a matter of life and death and these threads are meant to inspire and educate and gain friends who offer you good advice and hold you accountable. But to me to (especially in a very broad, general way) to bash someone elses program because its not for you is very irresponsible. I will not post back on this thread. As i do not want to be drawn into a debate. I am here only to get better not make a argument for my beliefs.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
12 step programs have been shown to actually cause more harm than good in some people. The issue I have is the "counting days." You mean to tell me that a person "loses" their time if they smoke a joint after 10 years of being clean? That's insane to me. I pop into meetings here and there but never intend to "work the program". I do admit though I tend to like NA meetings more than the dogmatic ancient AA meetings. 
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
Honestly ..Yes
What part of it's a program of abstance don't you understand ?
A ten year cake means celebrating 10 years continues clean time and soberiety...
not getting high every other day for 10 years and crying to the fellowship
everytime the sheit hits the fan or it get worst and worst.
It's a revolving door..that's nothing new.
People get well enough to go out and use again, and
again and bad mouth the fellowships in the process.
Passive agressive triats is a common triats for alki/addicts
in other words manic depressive if it's appropricate.
Dosen't matter what program you work. It works if you work it.
the question is.... Are you working one ?
Btw...NA states that a drug is a drug is a drugs is a drug..that includes alcohol.
It's in the literature being read in the begining of the meetings,,but I guess people
hear what they wanna hear.
What part of it's a program of abstance don't you understand ?
A ten year cake means celebrating 10 years continues clean time and soberiety...
not getting high every other day for 10 years and crying to the fellowship
everytime the sheit hits the fan or it get worst and worst.
It's a revolving door..that's nothing new.
People get well enough to go out and use again, and
again and bad mouth the fellowships in the process.
Passive agressive triats is a common triats for alki/addicts
in other words manic depressive if it's appropricate.
Dosen't matter what program you work. It works if you work it.
the question is.... Are you working one ?
Btw...NA states that a drug is a drug is a drugs is a drug..that includes alcohol.
It's in the literature being read in the begining of the meetings,,but I guess people
hear what they wanna hear.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 381
A ten year cake means celebrating 10 years continues clean time and soberiety...
Btw...NA states that a drug is a drug is a drugs is a drug..that includes alcohol.
It's in the literature being read in the begining of the meetings,,but I guess people
hear what they wanna hear.
It's in the literature being read in the begining of the meetings,,but I guess people
hear what they wanna hear.
I suppose that having a cup of cofee and a cigarette also constitutes as a drug and if you use those substances you are not clean. Or are these substances not considered drugs in NA?
Big Idiot Man Child
Join Date: May 2004
Location: La
Posts: 5,664
I don't do AA or NA. I fly solo. I didn't understand the religious stuff but a lot of people are helped by AA/NA. I'm for whatever works. Staying away from meetings full of court-mandated dope dealers is what I need to do. I went to AA during my first coupla years off dope and it was good just being around struggling dopers who wanted to be there....experience, strength, hope and all that jazz. The courts started sending knuckleheads to the meetings and then they weren't safe places for me. I don't have a problem with real AAers or NAers. I don't have a problem with NonAAers or NonNAers either. Whatever works.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: fumbling towards ecstasy
Posts: 2,551
I haven't noticed it, either, Garry. I'm sorry if you've had some bad experiences.
And, Peachy Clean, my experience is that coffee and cigarettes are not considered mood altering drugs in the context of NA clean time. A very small by vocal minority might protest, but you don't find them addressed in the NA literature and so I don't consider them in that context either.
** I'd like to remind everyone to keep their posts focused on "I" instead of "you" or "them." And, to keep the shares respectful of other's comments and beliefs. No biggie, I just want this thread to stay open for positive discussion. (This is not directed at any one person or any one post, just in general.) **
That's all folks. Now back to our regular programming.
And, Peachy Clean, my experience is that coffee and cigarettes are not considered mood altering drugs in the context of NA clean time. A very small by vocal minority might protest, but you don't find them addressed in the NA literature and so I don't consider them in that context either.
** I'd like to remind everyone to keep their posts focused on "I" instead of "you" or "them." And, to keep the shares respectful of other's comments and beliefs. No biggie, I just want this thread to stay open for positive discussion. (This is not directed at any one person or any one post, just in general.) **
That's all folks. Now back to our regular programming.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Righthere, Rightnow
Posts: 1,424
I think you will always find people who hate 12 Step Programs for one reason or another. Some, because they can’t or don’t want to be so-called clean and sober; others because some religious connotation from their childhood makes them cringe at the concept of a higher power; and maybe several other reasons.
I think many of us that have taken the steps come to realize that they are simply a straight forward path to reunite the alcoholic (or addict) back into the human race, where we belong. As I’m sure you know Gary, the roots of the disease are in egocentrism, selfishness, and fear – not drugs. The alcoholic (and addict) has come to see himself as separate from, rather than apart of [everyone else]. Sometimes I think the 12 Steps are simply formulae to correct this misalignment.
I, for one, think you are doing well by simply sharing your experience with those that want to hear you. Of course, in a perfect world, we might pray for these people that bash the 12 Steps, but I’m in the middle of a caffeine issue, so I say **** em right now. Just kidding about the **** em’ part.
About counting days not counting days, what difference does it make? It’s not a race or a competition. All we have is right now. And if I had the ability to drink once every ten years without falling back into full blown alcoholism, I’d probably do it – maybe. I’d think on it, but I suspect I am one of those that would likely die in a short while after commencing to drink again. We (in AA) don’t want anyone to drink or use even once because some of us are just this way – once we start we cannot control our ability to moderate and we risk death or worse.
Peachy Clean, I agree with you. Not counting caffeine and nicotine is a contradiction that needs correction. However, I can’t advocate throwing the baby out with the bath water though. (And I’m not saying you suggested this). I am saying NA appears to save lives despite some inconsistencies.
Gary, you start some good threads.
I think many of us that have taken the steps come to realize that they are simply a straight forward path to reunite the alcoholic (or addict) back into the human race, where we belong. As I’m sure you know Gary, the roots of the disease are in egocentrism, selfishness, and fear – not drugs. The alcoholic (and addict) has come to see himself as separate from, rather than apart of [everyone else]. Sometimes I think the 12 Steps are simply formulae to correct this misalignment.
I, for one, think you are doing well by simply sharing your experience with those that want to hear you. Of course, in a perfect world, we might pray for these people that bash the 12 Steps, but I’m in the middle of a caffeine issue, so I say **** em right now. Just kidding about the **** em’ part.
About counting days not counting days, what difference does it make? It’s not a race or a competition. All we have is right now. And if I had the ability to drink once every ten years without falling back into full blown alcoholism, I’d probably do it – maybe. I’d think on it, but I suspect I am one of those that would likely die in a short while after commencing to drink again. We (in AA) don’t want anyone to drink or use even once because some of us are just this way – once we start we cannot control our ability to moderate and we risk death or worse.
Peachy Clean, I agree with you. Not counting caffeine and nicotine is a contradiction that needs correction. However, I can’t advocate throwing the baby out with the bath water though. (And I’m not saying you suggested this). I am saying NA appears to save lives despite some inconsistencies.
Gary, you start some good threads.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
I guess not..I make coffee and clean up cigg butts at meetings
all the time..
Try reading the NA basic Text for yourself or attend NA for yourself
, this way you don't have to depend on me and my intrupertations of NA.lol
it can't be any worst than all of the crap you lived through in your
addictions. The fair amount of harms way you put yourself in...
then you're going to get hung up on NA. in other words
do you own investigations, before you commit contempt.
Try telling your dealer to give you an ounce of dope for 10 bucks.
Or throw a 12 pack on the counter and hangin over only a couple
bucks. let me know how that gose..lol
that's not too complicate for stuff like that is it...
all the time..
Try reading the NA basic Text for yourself or attend NA for yourself
, this way you don't have to depend on me and my intrupertations of NA.lol
it can't be any worst than all of the crap you lived through in your
addictions. The fair amount of harms way you put yourself in...
then you're going to get hung up on NA. in other words
do you own investigations, before you commit contempt.
Try telling your dealer to give you an ounce of dope for 10 bucks.
Or throw a 12 pack on the counter and hangin over only a couple
bucks. let me know how that gose..lol
that's not too complicate for stuff like that is it...
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
Barto, that's just it though. It is a big race and competition for "who has the longest clean time." I don't give a hoot if someone has 10 or 15 years of clean time. They don't impress me. They are usually just NA bullies.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Righthere, Rightnow
Posts: 1,424
I got you Tib. Some old timers can be bullies or talk down to people that have been sober for less time, but some old timers are pretty good people. Our book (AA’s) says that what we have is a daily reprieve. Lots of those bullies wind up drinking and suffering even after long periods of sobriety. Big shots do not seem to last that long in this deal as far as I can see. Besides, that kind of bravado is usually the manifestation of an inferiority complex. I have to take it with a grain of salt.
Evolving Addict
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
I was just going to sit back and see what others had to say about this, but I need to ask a couple of questions because the same accussation keeps popping up, and maybe if someone can explain it better (without me having to read numerous studies or look up extensive sources) I could understand. It concerns the issue of "harm."
[A] Are the 12 Step Programs (like AA, NA, CA, OA, etc...) the ones that "cause" harm, or is it: [1] Addiction Treatment professionals, [2] the criminal justice system or [3] overzealous members that "cause" the harm?
[B] Since most 12 step programs and/or fellowships offer their respective programs freely and of choice (as it says in most 12 step literature, "If you want what we have to offer...."), is the harm self-inflicted and the anger misdirected?
Some non-emotional input on this would be greatly appreciated.
GarryW
Oh yeah...a point of information:
NA's 10 Tradition states that NA has no opinion on outside issues, hence the NA name ought never be drawn into public controversy. The use of caffiene and nicotine are "generally" viewed as outside issues because these substances can be found in a variety of foodstuffs that have virtually nothing to do with generating or achieving a "high." When NA was founded, as its name reflects, the concentration was narcotics as then defined. As time passed, the term "narcotic" expanded in definition to include various other families of drugs. Over time, caffiene consumption and the use of nicotine has been seen by a large segment of the NA fellowship as a manifestation of the disease of addiction - no different than shopping, sex, gambling, etc... - yet, NA as a whole remains neutral on the issue as not to be drawn into public controversy and to maintain its focus on it's primary purpose.
12 step programs have been shown to actually cause more harm than good in some people.
[B] Since most 12 step programs and/or fellowships offer their respective programs freely and of choice (as it says in most 12 step literature, "If you want what we have to offer...."), is the harm self-inflicted and the anger misdirected?
Some non-emotional input on this would be greatly appreciated.
GarryW
Oh yeah...a point of information:
NA's 10 Tradition states that NA has no opinion on outside issues, hence the NA name ought never be drawn into public controversy. The use of caffiene and nicotine are "generally" viewed as outside issues because these substances can be found in a variety of foodstuffs that have virtually nothing to do with generating or achieving a "high." When NA was founded, as its name reflects, the concentration was narcotics as then defined. As time passed, the term "narcotic" expanded in definition to include various other families of drugs. Over time, caffiene consumption and the use of nicotine has been seen by a large segment of the NA fellowship as a manifestation of the disease of addiction - no different than shopping, sex, gambling, etc... - yet, NA as a whole remains neutral on the issue as not to be drawn into public controversy and to maintain its focus on it's primary purpose.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Righthere, Rightnow
Posts: 1,424
Well, one thing is for sure, I can get mighty high on caffeine. In fact, I’ve never met anyone who can’t. It is just a matter of consuming more than usual.
I agree that the 12 Steps can hardly harm anyone. I mean, how is this? Are we talking about some kind of brain washing?
I agree that the 12 Steps can hardly harm anyone. I mean, how is this? Are we talking about some kind of brain washing?
Big Idiot Man Child
Join Date: May 2004
Location: La
Posts: 5,664
Whenever I see some of my old AA buddies from back in the day and they ask how I'm doing I just say, "Um, I guess I'm okay, I guess". I try to look dejected or whatever. Some of these guys live for the program. Kinda like program junkies or whatever. That's cool but I don't want no part of it. I dunno, it just kinda freaks me out I guess. I would rather them think that I'm still "out there" instead of completely happy with my life without a religious program of any kind. I used to go to church too...but that's a story for another day I reckon.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Garry, I don't feel that I am one who is anti-AA and by no means do I mean to be venomous in any of my post. If I have been, I am sorry. AA does work for many people, unfortunately for many it does not. This clearly can't be disputed. I believe there is incredible power in this board, like there are in the rooms of AA/NA. Many members of AA clearly don't get along because their views are so different. You know what I am refering to. The hard core "steppers" and the people who solely rely on the "fellowship". It happens in the rooms and it will happen here. I think what happens is the people who believe that sobriety is unattainable without the steps tend to discount and dismiss thoses who do not. It is in AA literature that it is AA or jails, institutions or death and also that one who does not choose the spiritual path of AA is certainly signing their own death warrant. To me that means unless I follow Bill Wilson "spiritual beliefs" I am going to die. It is not that black and white, so few things in life are. I have noticed the two opposing camps at the meetings I attend and it can be very disheartening. There are many members who need just the fellowship after all the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking, so they come, leave the rest and stay sober. It is almost impossible to remove the humans natural desire to judge others, it is true of all of us. I do however think that it is sad to judge and dismiss others sobriety because it does not measure up to yours. It happens, everyday, in every room of AA/NA, it happens here.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
As far as bullies go........their in all parts of our lives. Some of them, believe it or not, aren't even addicts! 
I tend to ignore people like that. Just not worth my time or energy
I just read this here today and I can't remember who said it or where but I like it and it seems to fit here.....Don't take personal attacks personally.
I say don't attack in the first place. It takes up way to much energy. I choose to spend my energy on something more productive for myself. I only know what works best for me.
Windy -- go with Barto's advice......clap them hands!
I tend to ignore people like that. Just not worth my time or energyI just read this here today and I can't remember who said it or where but I like it and it seems to fit here.....Don't take personal attacks personally.
I say don't attack in the first place. It takes up way to much energy. I choose to spend my energy on something more productive for myself. I only know what works best for me.
Windy -- go with Barto's advice......clap them hands!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Righthere, Rightnow
Posts: 1,424
Originally Posted by bugsworth 
... It is in AA literature that it is AA or jails, institutions or death and also that one who does not choose the spiritual path of AA is certainly signing their own death warrant ...
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