Hawks

It might help you to read the doctors opinion in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

He worked with 40,000 people who had alcohol problems from the mild to the wild.

He draws the distinction between what he terms hard drinkers and real alcoholics or alcoholics of the hopeless variety.

My guess is your AH is a hard drinker.

One day when his doctor gives him a warning severe enough, he will just quit drinking.

Dr Silkworth saw many of these types.

They are often confused with alcoholics of the hopeless variety.

But they aren't.

It's actually quite good news.

Sikofit

Exactly, SoloMio!! My AH is the same way. In fact, this summer he got a bad case of poison ivy from working in the yard, but wouldn't take the pills the doctor recommended because he just doesn't think it's good to take a pill for everything!! Insisted on some cream instead.

Yet he drinks enough alcohol to take down an elephant 3-4 nights a week!

SoloMio

Thank you.

redatlanta

What about the alcoholic that goes to work everyday and does a good job? What about the alcoholic that never drives drunk? What about the alcoholic that does his or her share of the responsibilities at home?

You see you are confusing responsibility as not being a trait of someone who is alcoholic. Certainly many, many alcoholics are irresponsible but not all. Read through the stories here - how many times do we see the term "functioning alcoholic"? Many. This does not indicate that your AH is NOT an alcoholic.

My RAH was an incorrigible alcoholic yet he took his insulin everyday so does that change him from being an alcoholic to being a "hard drinker"? BAH. When he was told if he didn't quit drinking at 38 that he would die he kept right on trucking straight to ICU coma 30 days. And then he got out and stopped by the liquor store on the way home. Is it because he had no self worth? Is it because he didn't love himself? No. Its because alcoholism is an addiction. Addiction, by its nature, is selfish. The addiction will thrive and f*ck anyone who gets in the way. This is why when some people get sober those selfish attributes fall to the wayside and the core personality comes forth.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in psychologically trying to figure your AH out. The bottom line is his drinking is causing problems for you. Switch that focus on you and figure how how you want to handle this, how you want to live and move on from there.

Hawks

Alcohol is out of the body / system within 72 hours.

It is impossible to be physically addcited to alcohol after that time period.

That is not an opinion, that is a medical fact.

So your husband was no longer addicted after 30 days in ICU.

Why does he take his insulin?

So he can continue to drink.

He appears to be of the hopeless variety.

redatlanta

Dear Hawks.

1) My husband was sober 10 years, relapsed 3 months, and has been sober 2 years.His coma was in 2002. He still takes his insulin - I just asked why he took his insulin when he was drinking and he (looking at me like I am stupid) said so he didn't go into a diabetic coma and die. Unlike you I prefer to ask people why they do things rather than decide for them. So your diagnosis of "hopeless alcoholic" is in the shitt*r unless you can reference another one of your astute readings.

2) I don't know where you are getting your information from and really don't care. Alcoholism is not only physical but mental. Addiction is an obsession of the mind. Don't correct the brain part of it and you get a dry drunk or a white knuckler. Don't fix the brain part of it and sobriety for any length of time is rare.

You sure are doing a whole lot of diagnosing on here with little information and a lot of assumption. You have determined that solomio's AH is not an alcoholic but a "hard drinker", and you have determined that my RAH is an alcoholic of the "hopeless variety"even though he has 12 years total sobriety under his belt.

Incorrect.

Hawks

Your words "incorrigible alcoholic"

**(of a person or their behaviour) not able to be changed or reformed.**

my words "hopeless variety"

seems to be two different ways of describing the same thing.

Sorry I upset you.

I don't know all your personal histories, so I'll leave you to sort your situation without my input.

Chelsea1029

This is so true. It always helps to come read here when I start questioning my sanity. Thank you all.

redatlanta

THIS ^^^

Dude, you can't diagnose whether someone is or is not an alcoholic because they take their medications. That the whole point of my story - nor can you determine and offer hope that if an alcoholic or "hard drinker" is told that if they don't quit drinking and they will die that they will quit just because they are responsible about managing health issues. There are countless threads on here of the spouses/partners/children/friends of A's whose A was told if they didn't quit drinking they would die and they didn't quit, and some do quit. Mine did eventually - like 8 years after the first time he was told. He has multiple health issues due to alcoholism, takes his meds and goes to his doctors regularly yet relapsed with chronic pancreatitis and diabetes due to alcoholism because he is an addict and lost his recovery system. That he quit doesn't place him in the "hard drinker" category.

I was not with him during that time (first go round I was with him during relapse). I know that no one believed he would ever quit. I know that his mother had come to grips with "the phone call" that was inevitable that he was dead. Yeah, I would call that incorrigible. I would say yes, they felt he was hopeless.

There is certainly much to learn about studies of addicts and their behavior. One of the things I learned on here, best quoted by member Pohsfriend, is that one size fits one. The disease is baffling and inconsistent in real life. Illogical. Sadly, more often than not the addiction wins.

Its really easy to understand someone's history by reading their threads and posts. You did not upset me btw.

Cyranoak

This, above, is it. Period.

HikerLady

Great thread. I believe npd can include alcoholism,the difference being that they drink to enhance their delusions of grandeur (over blown sense of self worth), that they are the end all be all. The alcoholic who is not afflicted with npd drinks to cope with life in general, they do not have or are not willing to use more effective means of coping, their self worth is extremely low.

cureav

According to these replies, I would say that alcoholism can produce narcissism in people living with an alcoholic. Since alcoholics with their behavior neglect others ("anyone who gets in the way" as redatlanta said) by their selfishness and addiction, demolish healthy emotional boundaries. People living with an alcoholics can subconsciously adopt selfish and narcissistic attributes as a normal thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hawks

It's no doubt going to make anyone crazy living with an alcoholic.

There has to be a certain amount of crazy though, to hook up with one in the first place.

My wife often grizzles about being married to an alcoholic. But there it is... She had seen me in full flight and married me anyway.

Every other woman eventually left, some after pretty short periods of time.

My wife thought the others were quitters, she was going to show them how to fix Hawks.

Alcoholic folk tend to attract "rescuers"

Not in every single case, but often enough that I've noticed the pattern.

Rescuers have their own personality issues... They think nothing is beyond their capabilities, they often come unstuck emotionally when they find out some things are.

My wife is coming to terms with being powerless over my alcoholism.

Most women looked at me and saw a lost cause, my wife saw a challenge.

We can laugh about this now, how crazy we made each other.

It's good to be in recovery together.

irisgardens

Thanks Hawks...I have found your comments to be illuminating by the very directness...and you described me (in describing your wife) to a 't'--and I need to be in my recovery no matter what else happens or it's right back to crazy...and there is some real crazy in all of it...

Hammer

Maybe consider that the Big Book model (with some truly excellent observational information) did not yet have all the Science to back it and more fully give substance to those observations, let alone a more full explanation for it.

It was written about 80 years ago, before full medical modeling, let alone Genetic studies and fMRI and other imaging.

More likely now, what was called, 'The Hopeless . . . ." would be what now be considered a Mental Illness -- typically of the Personality Disorder variety.

Which would closely align with Narcissism or one of the other typical Personality Disorders. These are now known to be related to Inherited Brain Developmental issues.

Liberator4EVA

Someone stated something similar about Nicotine at work today, so i wanted to correct this misunderstanding of neurology.

It is not the presence of the Drug of Choice in your body that drives cravings, it is central nervous system rebound. Eg. You ingest something that stimulates the dopamine receptors in your brain - opiates , cocaine, alcohol. Push those receptors FAR beyond their normal level of activity over a sustained period, your brain tries to compensate by lowering the sensitivity of these receptors. If you abruptly STOP taking the substance, the dopamine receptors are now under active compared to a sober person's brain, the user is in "central nervous system rebound" and experiences withdrawl symptoms that tend to be opposite to the "high" of the drug. The withdrawl should fade over time though as the brain adjusts itself back into equilibrium.

So, when the A stops drinking, the withdrawl symptoms/cravings are likely to get worse and worse as more an more of the substance leaves the body, but once it's all gone, things can't get any worse from that perspective, and should only improve from then on as their brain adjusts to balance itself to sober chemistry. Of course, if there's an underlying disorder making them want to escape into the bottle, no period of abstinence would be long enough to remove the craving...

NYCDoglvr

I wouldn't know if your partner has NPD, but I do know that active alcoholics (and the newly sober) are self-centered in the extreme, have enormous self-will, very immature and selfish. Bill Wilson describes this in the Big Book. But it's irrelevant, only your issues are important since you can't do anything about other people's stuff. Only your own.

thequest

Chicken or the egg scenario says a lot. They might play off each other as well. Either condition or behavior can give someone an excuse to rationalize their behavior. Without taking responsibility or actually changing their behavior either diagnosis doesn't mean squat.