Is there a relationship between alcoholism and narcissism?
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
trying to understand a crazy person will make you insane...literally. Trying to make sense of "what they do" or trying to get them to "see me" or "see my point of view" made me insane.
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
To add: I had a HA HA moment last night.
I accidentally poured boiling water over my hand while cooking. Hurt like the dickens. So, I'm in bed trying to get to sleep with my hand hanging over the side of the bed in a bowl of ice water (only thing that seemed to take away the pain) and I started laughing out loud! Why? For the first time in recent memory, I didn't have some blathering idiot going on about the pain in [insert body part here] instead of acknowledging my injury.
It struck me as funny.
I accidentally poured boiling water over my hand while cooking. Hurt like the dickens. So, I'm in bed trying to get to sleep with my hand hanging over the side of the bed in a bowl of ice water (only thing that seemed to take away the pain) and I started laughing out loud! Why? For the first time in recent memory, I didn't have some blathering idiot going on about the pain in [insert body part here] instead of acknowledging my injury.
It struck me as funny.
Formerly known as soconfused11
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Colon, MI
Posts: 410
Pinching and things like that I only learned where abusive yesterday. (maybe I'm a bit thick) I just knew I didn't like it.
Ago, your posts help me a lot also. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out the alcoholic in my life, and even though it does take some of the focus off of me....it helps in a way sometimes. B/C...I think often I question my role in the downfall of the relationship...codie tendencies of mine...but I like to sit and blame myself, analyze if I could have done something better. For some reason, knowing that what he does is typical of alcholic behavior.....well, strange as it sounds...kind of makes me feel a little bit better. Just to know I'm not all the blame.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Someplace USA
Posts: 415
Mine "plays around" all the time. I get sick of being tickled, pinched, poked, prodded and felt up. I sometimes wear lots of clothes so he can't get to me as easy. He use to call it husband proofing.
Anyway, to me actions speak louder then words. Even my kids have heard me say that words are nice and all; but if your not going to back it up with actions just don't bother.
Anyway, to me actions speak louder then words. Even my kids have heard me say that words are nice and all; but if your not going to back it up with actions just don't bother.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 646
Thank you all for your thoughts. I do realize that all this has not much to do with my recovery....I was just intrigued by the similarities. I do however feel better being educated about these issues because it helps me to know what I am up against.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Oh, gosh, I remember the pinching days. I had no idea that was abusive at the time...I just thought I was uptight (which is what "he" told me). I taught him it was okay by giving in and letting him continue to do it. Didn't know I had the right to say "knock it off or I'm leaving" at that point in my life....sigh.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the streets have no name
Posts: 1,078
Originally Posted by BumblingAlong 
but what could they possibly get from saying "I love you" when they so obviously don't. I still can't wrap my head around it...
You are the person/entity/thing/whatever that;
# gives me a place to live
# funds my drinking
# covers up for me when I fail to meet responsibilities because
# i was drunk
# or hungover
# deposits more money into our bank account even though I continue to **** it away like water
# buying alcohol for me and even my drinking buddies
# pays lawyer for DUI
# bails me out of jail after DUI
I love (all the things you do that keep me drinking) you so much, honey!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10
Yes I do think there may be a connection. I see it as a Venn Diagram - some alcoholics are also narcissists and vice versa.
I am more interested in the behaviors though - and I think the intersection between those behaviors displayed by most alcoholics and those of most narcissists is large. Educating myself about both conditions helped me to see that it really wasn't about me. My own behavior and reactions did make my experience worse in some situations but that was all about me. There is a lot of info out there about narcissism and some excellent forums.
At the end of the day my non-professional diagnosis didn't really matter. It didn't change him - only I could change my situation by first changing my attitude to the world and the thought processes that come from that.
I am more interested in the behaviors though - and I think the intersection between those behaviors displayed by most alcoholics and those of most narcissists is large. Educating myself about both conditions helped me to see that it really wasn't about me. My own behavior and reactions did make my experience worse in some situations but that was all about me. There is a lot of info out there about narcissism and some excellent forums.
At the end of the day my non-professional diagnosis didn't really matter. It didn't change him - only I could change my situation by first changing my attitude to the world and the thought processes that come from that.
I got nothin'
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: My house.
Posts: 4,890
Hello, everyone. I'm an alcoholic. I usually don't contribute on this forum, but I think the title of the thread is interesting and I thought I would post about my experience.
I'm almost as far as one can get from being narcissistic. I do not think highly of myself in any way. I am a failure. Come to think of it, there is a lot of self-hatred on my part.
I've known a few narcissistic type people in my life and my personality has always clashed. They seem to be able to sniff out the fact that I do not like them and they abuse that knowledge (however they ascertain it, I do not know). I do not like people who think very highly of themselves and I try to avoid them at all costs.
I've also know various people with addiction problems and their issues (respectively) seem to run the gamut.
I’m beginning to think that this condition can happen to anyone. The wrong set of circumstances at the wrong time, perhaps. I know this is a topic for another thread, but I wish there was more public awareness about addiction. No one talks openly about it.
Okay, I'll butt out now.
I'm almost as far as one can get from being narcissistic. I do not think highly of myself in any way. I am a failure. Come to think of it, there is a lot of self-hatred on my part.
I've known a few narcissistic type people in my life and my personality has always clashed. They seem to be able to sniff out the fact that I do not like them and they abuse that knowledge (however they ascertain it, I do not know). I do not like people who think very highly of themselves and I try to avoid them at all costs.
I've also know various people with addiction problems and their issues (respectively) seem to run the gamut.
I’m beginning to think that this condition can happen to anyone. The wrong set of circumstances at the wrong time, perhaps. I know this is a topic for another thread, but I wish there was more public awareness about addiction. No one talks openly about it.
Okay, I'll butt out now.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 46
I spent a lot of time in the Narcissist message boards before coming here. I just felt that everything the A was doing was Narcissistic in nature. I kept having a nagging feeling that he wasn't truly an N but he had a lot of the traits.
I was more in denial of how much his alcoholism was affecting me and sure that it had to be more far reaching. In the end, I realized that when he's drinking he is very much like a child, and those tendencies DO come out more, but he does have a conscience, when he's sober, and N's don't have one - sober or not.
What I believe makes the traits so similar is that both of them act like 6 year olds. The difference is that the N is a brilliant 6 year old who can manipulate people into thinking anything they want them to think and an alcoholic is just an emotional 6 year old. And 6 year olds believe that they can do whatever they want because they want to ...
I was more in denial of how much his alcoholism was affecting me and sure that it had to be more far reaching. In the end, I realized that when he's drinking he is very much like a child, and those tendencies DO come out more, but he does have a conscience, when he's sober, and N's don't have one - sober or not.
What I believe makes the traits so similar is that both of them act like 6 year olds. The difference is that the N is a brilliant 6 year old who can manipulate people into thinking anything they want them to think and an alcoholic is just an emotional 6 year old. And 6 year olds believe that they can do whatever they want because they want to ...
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
This is one of the best descriptions I've seen of an alcoholic in a long time:
This is why it's a mistake of monumental proportions to try and have a relationship with one. Thanks for sharing, Steve.
You are the person/entity/thing/whatever that;
# gives me a place to live
# funds my drinking
# covers up for me when I fail to meet responsibilities because
# i was drunk
# or hungover
# deposits more money into our bank account even though I continue to **** it away like water
# buying alcohol for me and even my drinking buddies
# pays lawyer for DUI
# bails me out of jail after DUI
I love (all the things you do that keep me drinking) you so much, honey!
# gives me a place to live
# funds my drinking
# covers up for me when I fail to meet responsibilities because
# i was drunk
# or hungover
# deposits more money into our bank account even though I continue to **** it away like water
# buying alcohol for me and even my drinking buddies
# pays lawyer for DUI
# bails me out of jail after DUI
I love (all the things you do that keep me drinking) you so much, honey!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
IMO Alcoholics do tend to exhibit narcissistic traits and i guess it is only when, and if, they sober up you can tell to what extent they are actually narcissists if at all.
As for relationships there are various levels of narcissism and, from what i have read, there are differing professional opinions as to what the basis traits that would define a narcissist actually are...
Speaking for myself i am an alchie and have just sobered up. My counseller asked me if i have ever loved anybody in my life, including family, and i gave it some thought and said that i hadn't to which she was not suprised (this is something she said we can work on though dont hang me just yet!). This also goes with the act of love, 'making love', I have obviously had quite a few partners at 37 (as have most) but i could not describe to you what making love is as sex has always been quite mechanical for me with the emphasis been on pleasing the other person (a narcissistic trait) to achieve satisfaction from my skill at pleasuring them.
I love my cat though, which apparently does not count as she is not human and a lot of psychopaths love animals lol
I also display some of the other traits, the need for constant praise, the inability to take criticism, the feeling of being unique and special, exceptionally good manipulation skills, the belief that i am better than others, the frustration at having to deal with people that i consider beneath me and a few others.
This is where the grey area comes in as i don't particularly like myself deep down, so at first glance that would mean i am displaying narcissistic traits and not actually a narcissist...well that is up for argument too from some professionals i have read about.
Safe to say whether i am an alchie, narcissist...whatever...it would be an incredibly bad move to try and formulate a longterm, 'normal' relationship with me at this stage as we would be doing it for completely different reasons although it would appear to the woman that i would be doing it for all the right reasons and would be considered a real catch which would be the woman falling in love with my false self.
I have given this a lot of thought even before becoming sober and that is the reason i stopped dating a few years ago, i honestly do not think it is fair to another person until i resolve, if i ever can, the issues that i have outlined above. I am also aware that any good i do for others may be actually fuelling my needs and not, as they appear to be, such a good will gesture, e.g. being friends with my ex and helping pay for her first year at Uni etc.
Rule of thumb don't date alchies, addicts or sober narcissists;-)
As for relationships there are various levels of narcissism and, from what i have read, there are differing professional opinions as to what the basis traits that would define a narcissist actually are...
Speaking for myself i am an alchie and have just sobered up. My counseller asked me if i have ever loved anybody in my life, including family, and i gave it some thought and said that i hadn't to which she was not suprised (this is something she said we can work on though dont hang me just yet!). This also goes with the act of love, 'making love', I have obviously had quite a few partners at 37 (as have most) but i could not describe to you what making love is as sex has always been quite mechanical for me with the emphasis been on pleasing the other person (a narcissistic trait) to achieve satisfaction from my skill at pleasuring them.
I love my cat though, which apparently does not count as she is not human and a lot of psychopaths love animals lol
I also display some of the other traits, the need for constant praise, the inability to take criticism, the feeling of being unique and special, exceptionally good manipulation skills, the belief that i am better than others, the frustration at having to deal with people that i consider beneath me and a few others.
This is where the grey area comes in as i don't particularly like myself deep down, so at first glance that would mean i am displaying narcissistic traits and not actually a narcissist...well that is up for argument too from some professionals i have read about.
Safe to say whether i am an alchie, narcissist...whatever...it would be an incredibly bad move to try and formulate a longterm, 'normal' relationship with me at this stage as we would be doing it for completely different reasons although it would appear to the woman that i would be doing it for all the right reasons and would be considered a real catch which would be the woman falling in love with my false self.
I have given this a lot of thought even before becoming sober and that is the reason i stopped dating a few years ago, i honestly do not think it is fair to another person until i resolve, if i ever can, the issues that i have outlined above. I am also aware that any good i do for others may be actually fuelling my needs and not, as they appear to be, such a good will gesture, e.g. being friends with my ex and helping pay for her first year at Uni etc.
Rule of thumb don't date alchies, addicts or sober narcissists;-)
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Interesting, in her book, "The Sociopath Next Door," author Martha Byrne says that Sociopaths/Psychopaths have no feelings for anything--animals and humans. In fact, they tend to enjoy torturing animals. I believe the defining line (I'm going only on memory here) is that sociopaths tend to be non-violent, and psychopaths tend to be violent.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Formerdoormat raised a good point here,
http://counsellingresource.com/ask-t...ng-psychopath/
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/disp...le/10168/55051
there are lots of other places to see the different views on psychopaths, although nowadays it is called antisocial personality or narcissist personality apparently?!
Its got a bit about the difference between psychopath and sociopath here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
Sorry for taking this off thread but just if anyone is interested, not trying to be a smart ass!
http://counsellingresource.com/ask-t...ng-psychopath/
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/disp...le/10168/55051
there are lots of other places to see the different views on psychopaths, although nowadays it is called antisocial personality or narcissist personality apparently?!
Its got a bit about the difference between psychopath and sociopath here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
Sorry for taking this off thread but just if anyone is interested, not trying to be a smart ass!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the streets have no name
Posts: 1,078
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
This is one of the best descriptions I've seen of an alcoholic in a long time:
This is why it's a mistake of monumental proportions to try and have a relationship with one. Thanks for sharing, Steve.
This is why it's a mistake of monumental proportions to try and have a relationship with one. Thanks for sharing, Steve.
Only after we have lived through this can we appreciate and relate to one another.
Best luck for 2009
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: trelleborg
Posts: 7
I met and fell in love with a sober alcoholic just over 2 years ago. We moved in together, and shortly after the true self started to show. I believe after all the researching I have done I could put it down as dry drunk behaviour. he was easily irritated, always angry, like a dark cloud hanging over him, loved attention, but never gave any back. Very critisizing of me as well. Always said I was living in a different world to everybody else, yet I was the one that had the hone, the car, the fulltime job, paid all the bills and took care of things. It was like walking on egg shells around him.
Eventually his secret ways got to me, everything passworded, phone faced down, silent.. never left his PC open to go to the loo..
When I started making my own demands and started pointing out that something was not right, I was gas lighted. Called psycho, insecure, you name it.
Almost had me believeing it too, he was great at aruments and making me feel like I was a lesser being compared to him.
I had had it up to here and I hacked everything he had.
What did I find, him exchanging naked pics, sexting and lots more with a former ex of his during a good 8 months of our relationship.
Confronted him with the proof, and was now called a mad psycho bitch stalker.
whatever, this is all thanks to his lies that I felt I had no choice for my own sanity!
Regardless, after a whole lot of promises that this was not going to happen again.. I found him planning a trip to Bangkok Thailand with his best friend. And they were going to have fun with some prostitues of course..
That day I packed his bags and threw him out.
I was devastated..
2 months later, begging for forgivness and promising change.. I gave him yet another chance. But of course, there is no changing such behaviour. He treated me like a mistress. Would not ackowledge to anyone we were again a couple.. Because he had by them told everyone what a horrible psycho hacker I am. A lot of this anger was also because the woman who he had been folling around with was with a partner. And I told him. Making me an evil person who destroys lives.
Never looking at his own behaviour and never taking any blame for what has happened.
After 1,5 years of this crap, me always finding out they are still in contact, and him fully denying everything to my face.. the devaluation, the pushing away, never having that boyfriend I could rely on.. (when he moved, I helped him with everything, when I needed help moving he never showed)
This last time, I ended up in hospital, in the ER for a slipped sic. He was a no show. Few days later he came for a short visit, to only tell me that he had 2 days off and was going to England to be with his friend. Leaving me unable to even make a cup of coffee here alone.
I ended it, and its's been rocky to say the least.. he keeps trying to convince me he loves me and wants us to work, yet I find him flriting with 23 year olds (he is soon 47)
asking them on trips to Brazil and what not. Also, again telling me he is going to his friend in the UK, but I see him flying off to thailand AGAIN! We were not even together atthis stage, there was no reason to lie about it. And that is when it hit me, he just cannot help himself, lying is his second nature. very NPD!!Told him he could takes his ******** and bugger off, putting it mildly.
Well, about 3 days later he is in Thailand and reads this email and he says I have now screwed his life up so much he was going to take a drink again after 4 years sober.
A flux of hate mail came then, it was all ME, and all MY fault!! *rolls eyes*
I know it is not, it was going to happen sooner or later, I have been watching him take tha darker path a while now.
He was always in abstinence, nver in recovery. Had not been to meetings a while.
I was dumb enough to say I'd be there for him if he needed, as a friend.. But I just kept hearing it wa all my fault, and when I said, fine, I'd lt him be, then it was just so typical me to destroy his life and then just leave him. He reckons I just feel guilty. But I truly don't!!
Anyways, this is my story.. and I do think dry drunk exhibits a very high NPD!
Hope I did not bore anyone.. I don't know where else to find my sanity but here with people who have gone through the same.
Thanks for listening!
Eventually his secret ways got to me, everything passworded, phone faced down, silent.. never left his PC open to go to the loo..
When I started making my own demands and started pointing out that something was not right, I was gas lighted. Called psycho, insecure, you name it.
Almost had me believeing it too, he was great at aruments and making me feel like I was a lesser being compared to him.
I had had it up to here and I hacked everything he had.
What did I find, him exchanging naked pics, sexting and lots more with a former ex of his during a good 8 months of our relationship.
Confronted him with the proof, and was now called a mad psycho bitch stalker.
whatever, this is all thanks to his lies that I felt I had no choice for my own sanity!
Regardless, after a whole lot of promises that this was not going to happen again.. I found him planning a trip to Bangkok Thailand with his best friend. And they were going to have fun with some prostitues of course..
That day I packed his bags and threw him out.
I was devastated..
2 months later, begging for forgivness and promising change.. I gave him yet another chance. But of course, there is no changing such behaviour. He treated me like a mistress. Would not ackowledge to anyone we were again a couple.. Because he had by them told everyone what a horrible psycho hacker I am. A lot of this anger was also because the woman who he had been folling around with was with a partner. And I told him. Making me an evil person who destroys lives.
Never looking at his own behaviour and never taking any blame for what has happened.
After 1,5 years of this crap, me always finding out they are still in contact, and him fully denying everything to my face.. the devaluation, the pushing away, never having that boyfriend I could rely on.. (when he moved, I helped him with everything, when I needed help moving he never showed)
This last time, I ended up in hospital, in the ER for a slipped sic. He was a no show. Few days later he came for a short visit, to only tell me that he had 2 days off and was going to England to be with his friend. Leaving me unable to even make a cup of coffee here alone.
I ended it, and its's been rocky to say the least.. he keeps trying to convince me he loves me and wants us to work, yet I find him flriting with 23 year olds (he is soon 47)
asking them on trips to Brazil and what not. Also, again telling me he is going to his friend in the UK, but I see him flying off to thailand AGAIN! We were not even together atthis stage, there was no reason to lie about it. And that is when it hit me, he just cannot help himself, lying is his second nature. very NPD!!Told him he could takes his ******** and bugger off, putting it mildly.
Well, about 3 days later he is in Thailand and reads this email and he says I have now screwed his life up so much he was going to take a drink again after 4 years sober.
A flux of hate mail came then, it was all ME, and all MY fault!! *rolls eyes*
I know it is not, it was going to happen sooner or later, I have been watching him take tha darker path a while now.
He was always in abstinence, nver in recovery. Had not been to meetings a while.
I was dumb enough to say I'd be there for him if he needed, as a friend.. But I just kept hearing it wa all my fault, and when I said, fine, I'd lt him be, then it was just so typical me to destroy his life and then just leave him. He reckons I just feel guilty. But I truly don't!!
Anyways, this is my story.. and I do think dry drunk exhibits a very high NPD!
Hope I did not bore anyone.. I don't know where else to find my sanity but here with people who have gone through the same.
Thanks for listening!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,805
I was told by a therapist once that anyone who is diagnosed NPD, (which is extremely rare because NPDs never admit anything is wrong with them), they are the hardest personality disorder to "fix." Most therapists just choose to end the therapy than deal with them because they are so manipulative, cunning and convinced everyone else has the problems. If you are convinced the alcoholic in your life also has NPD, with that double mess, I would run for the hills and never look back.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
