BeginAgain

Hi all. I appologize in advance as I expect this will be long, but I've got to get it out in a more open forum where I can talk about my experiences and how I really feel without being banned or having my message deleted. I belong to another board that I have used alot in the last few months and they do not allow you to debate methods of getting clean. It is supposed to be a peers uuport site - but even if you just talk about your negative experiences with something that someone else has tried and likes - it's perceived as "debating". I really need a kick in the right direction and someone to listen to how I feel - so I hope you'll bear with me. As I type the tears stream because I am so frustrated and angry - mostly with myself.

In September 2005 I got clean from a relapse. Previously I had almost 11 years clean, but relapsed in August 2004 after an injury required pain medication. I became addicted to opiates and spent a little over a year trying to stop. I tried taper but I couldn't do it - if it was available I took it and found ways and excuses to get more and more. I couldn't ever stick to a taper for more than 2-3 days - some people can do it I guess - maybe I'm weak. Finally in September of this year I took 10 days off work and I just went cold turkey and suffered through the physical misery with over the counter medication, family support and support of my friends in NA. As anyone who has been through this knows - the subusequent anxiety and cravings are far worse than the withdrawl. Atleast they were for me.

I continued to go to meetings, talk to my sponsor, write, work steps, I started therapy, I was reading and using recovery & addiction forums for additional support. At about the 3 week mark the anxiety, depression and cravings began to subside some but I was left with almost debilitating post acute withdrawl symptoms. Laying around waiting for this to pass was just not an option. I felt so depressed, tired, emotional and physically and mentally drained I could barely get myself through the day. I was miserable.

Back in Spetember when I first got clean I was reading about a product called Nutracleanse others were using for withdrawl from opiates and post acute withdrawl symtoms. All reports were positive and I don't remember reading anything negative during this time. The product is marketed as an "all herbal & natural" supplement to aid withdrawl, give energy and curb depression. I ordered a bottle of the product - it is a liquid drop placed into the nose and is purchased from Canada. I first became a little suspicious when I receied the product. It has no ingredient label and the customs declaration is completed as "bath oil sample - herbal" - instead of "health supplement - herbal". I emailed the company and received some explainations that seemed honest enough and I felt more comfortable - so I tried it. Honestly I felt nothing and after using it twice the day it was received I decided I must have been duped or that it didn't work for me and I tossed it in a drawer in my medicine cabinet. The next day I woke up with a sinus infection or a cold and I didn't think any more of using it.

For the next few weeks I struggled onward and the PAWS held on like a vice. I was at the point where I just felt I couldn't handle it anymore. I felt like I was going to have an emotional break in spite of doing all I felt I should do to try and get well. Even my therapist and sponsor said I was working hard and to just keep hanging on becaue it would pass. I was doing all the right things...and yet I was never more miserable.

One day in late October I saw the bottle of NutraCleanse there and I thought I would give it another try. This time I tried using a couple extra drops of the product and I did feel a difference very quickly. I felt so much better that day - not 100% but definite improvement. I continued to use it over the next two weeks and I felt nothing but improvement in my mental state, energy level and mood - I didn't crave the product or feel any kind of high or anything that would make me suspicious. That bottle lasted me a little over 2 weeks. I ran out and didn't use anything for over a wwek. I didn't feel as bad as before but I had days where I would feel really horrible and would struggle alot.

I ended up ordering another bottle around Thanksgiving. Everything changed after that. I don't know what the difference was. I even contacted the company and asked but they said there was no difference in the product. I began to use more and more - I began to feel relaxed and have a sense of well-being after using it like I didn't have before. Almost a high feeling - but not quite high - it's very hard to explain. But I began using it more and more often. And now I feel addicted to it.

So here I am feeling like I've had a relapse and I never set out looking for a relapse. I looked at it no differently than taking a vitamin or herb supplement. I even discussed it with a friend of mine who is a PA before starting it and based on the ingredient list claimed she felt it would be okay to try.

I have tried to just stop using it and I feel so awful and tired and stuffy and unmotivated that I can't seem to get through it more than a couple of days. It isn't the same as opiate withdrawl - but it's undoubtedly withdrawl from the product. I feel so very frustrated and disgusted. I also feel frightened - very afraid of what is in this product...can it really be all herbal??? In addition to how I feel - may people on the other board I use feel exactly the same way. And, none of them had a problem before the Thanksgiving holidays so it makes me thing something has changed.

I know there isn't a narcotic in it. I've taken a drug test as have others using it and nothing comes up. I just feel frustrated and angry - like I've relapsed without the intention of doing so and that is really hurtful.

Right now my plan is to dilute the product and taper off of it like you would anything else. I don't know if it will work. If not - I'm off for a week soon and I'll go cold turkey at that time. I guess I just needed to dump this and I could use some support. I have told my sponsor and some other NA friends. I have an appointment with my therapist on Tuesday and I plan to talk to her then. It's my family I'm scared to tell. I haven't said anything to my husband yet. I expect him to be angry and disappointed and I am afriad of what he will say or do. He has always been supportive before - but here we are with one more thing to overcome. I feel like he's sick of me and my messes...I'm sure he just wants me to get my act together. My husband is a recovering alcoholic with 15 years clean...so thankfully he understands addiction and all it brings..but I'm not sure understanding is enough anymore. Another issue around this is that this stuff is expensive and I've spent quite a bit of money the last few weeks - probably close to $1000.00 over several weeks.

I don't know. I'm just afraid, empty, angry, hurting, disgusted, emotional, scared, tired frustrated and I feel so alone. Thank you for listening and caring. I know this was a long post but I desperately needed to put it all out there and get it off my chest. Even though I've told others - I still feel like I'm carrying around a dirty little secret that I can't seem to cleanse myself of. I haven't forgiven myself yet and I find that very hard to do. I am beating myself up pretty badly...I guess I'm my own worst enemy. I've cried and cried and I feel just like I've lost myself. I just want to be me again...plain old me.

Nickaddict

Dear Beginagain, first of all a big ((((HUG)))) to ya for sharing.
That's a good thing to do - get if off your chest and share with recovering addicts.
I've read your whole story and I'm not sure what I could or should say.
The only thing that I feel I can do is to pray for you - and I will do that.
I don't know enough about medication or herbal products to say anything on that....I wish I could though.
Maybe other people can share more on that subject.

I will keep you in my prayers and light a candle for you - know that you're my friend in recovery - and you ARE in recovery hun, you have the desire to stop using (regardless if you had a "relapse" or not) and that's all that matters.

Keep comming back and keep on sharing!

Nick.

bikewench

Hey BA...

yeah...
I'm totally unfamiliar with Nutracleanse...
but.. like Nick said...
you just keep putting your yuck out where we can look at it...
find some solutions...
share the load.. as Gooch once said to me..

as long as we keep looking for solutions.. we're still on the path...
and I have to tell you...
I've tripped over many a rock in my recovery history...
but.. as long as I didn't let it stop me from continuing my journey to betterness...
I really really tried to cut myself some slack.

keep on what your doing...

Kathy Z

I'm glad you shared your experience with us. I too am in recovery for an opiate addiction. 4 days clean today. Ive heard great things about a natural herbal product called Kava Kava. I've heard it compares to valium in it's calming effect. A few months back I looked for it and had been told it was taken off the market becasue some were abusing it. Hmmm, at the time made me want it even more. I felt it must actually be good and work. The other day I went to my vitamin store to get some echinasea (like a natural antibiotic) since I've been getting throat infections all the time and I'm trying to avoid my doctors office for obvious reasons Anyhoo, wouldnt you know they now carry the Kava Kava again, so I bought it. I'm taking it as directed, 1 capsule 3 x a day. I will say it does have a somewhat calming effect. Is it all in my mind? I honestly don't know. Am I somehow substituting one substance for another even though this is a natural substance? I'm not sure. I guess I'll take it one day at a time and see.

I just wanted to reply so you'd know you're not alone, and others do battle with the same types of situations, or at least somewhat similiar. Hang in there, keep coming back and sharing.

Gooch

First ... don't beat yourself up over this.

and just as a point to consider.... reefers an herb and I was so psychologically dependant to it, it was a while before my sense of well being was restored.

Looking back I felt the same revulsion, horror, frustration, and wound up agonizing over the fact that I had broken my dependance on dope, only to become dependant on the program, meetings, and the overwhelming obsessive/compulsive urges to have someone to "talk to" about every little thing that crossed my mind.

For many of us substitution seems to be a part of our discovery process.

That spirtual void seems like a vortex that will suck anything and everything into it trying to be filled. The more we experience the misery of dissatisfaction, the closer we come toward changing our process and filling the void with what it requires... spirit.

That 6th tradition .. "lest problems of money, property, or prestige divert us from our primary purpose" said purpose being "to carry the message to the still suffering addict" I can apply directly to my own recovery. Because of the first tradition.....our personal recovery being dependant of the unity of the group being of a reciprocal nature. .... ( the unity of the group being dependant on our personal recovery) ... it's become apparent to me that I need to devote taking this addict to the message (in spite of my obsessions to just go get rich quick, pursue relationships, and acquire prestige now that I have a daily reprieve from getting loaded) or my personal recovery suffers to the point of not being able to make a healthy contribution to the unity of the group (or for that matter society as a whole.) If the group suffers so do I.

Fortunately it seems our higher power stages enough of us at different intervals in our growth so that overall we have the spirtual strength to survive our individual spirtual deficits.

Our higher power didn't bring us to recovery to abandon us in the program.

These days I don't set out to seek out pain, nor do I try and avoid it when it seems to be a necessary part of my growth. The sooner I gain acceptance the sooner my relief seems to come.

The suggestions geared toward finding a higher power are that it be loving, caring, and greater than ourselves. Yeras ago when I would berate myself and feel horrible over my little disasters, I would yell at my sponsor "God knows I'm doing the best I can." and he would reply......

"yes He does and he forgives you for your errors, why won't you forgive yourself? Are you still trying to have the last word?"

These days I try and cut righ to the chase and ask for the humility and compassion to forgive myself for all the destructive energies I still manage to focus toward me.

Be good to yourself, be grateful for all that your higher power has given you, and let go of that agony over the spins you've taken on the learning curve.

REZ

This is a very sad story. I'm sorry that you slipped on the pain meds at 11 years clean and then got hooked on this herbal medicine trying to withdraw from opioids. I have tried an herbal supplement only once, and it gave me some effects that I did not like at all (insomnia, anxiety, heart palpitations), so I stopped. The manufacturers advertise herbal products as "natural" but that is misleading. They often contain some very powerful chemicals. Worse yet, they don't have to pass FDA safey standards, so anything could be in them. The lesson I learned is that it is a myth to think that herbal meds are safe and innocuous. If I ever take one again, it will be only with the consultation and advice of health care professional.
Now, to your current situation. Basically, you are trying to get clean off this herbal drug. There is no difference, in principle, between what you are going through and what all other addicts go through on other drugs. Remember the NA reading "we don't care what or how much you used, or who your connections were, but only what you want to do about your problem and how we can help." So, take heart, there is hope for you in NA. You can get/stay clean. Just to the basics: go to meetings, talk to your sponsor, fellowship with recovering addicts, work the steps, pray/meditate, and get involved in service. It works, if your work it.

REZ

I just went on the nutracleanse website. Here are the listed ingredients:
Fructose, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Acetate, Niacinamide, Vitamin A, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin, BHA, L-Arginine, L-Tyrosine, DHEA, Muira, Puama, Palmetto, Berry Siberian, Yohimbe, Mint Extracts, Eucalyptus Extracts, Methylxanthine Complex, Phenthylxanthine Complex, Green Tea Leaf, L-Theanine, Amino Acid Complex

Most of these are just vitamins or amino acids, except except palmetto, yohimbe, Methylxanthine Complex, Phenthylxanthine Complex--these are powerful stimulants. I wouldn't mess with this stuff!

BeginAgain

You are right REZ..I never should have messed with this stuff. I did seek medical advice before I used it and they said they didn't see any harm in trying it assuming the ingredient list is accurate and complete. But I equated it to taking a vitamin supplement basically - I never ever realized that herbal concotions could be so powerful - much less addictive. This is my first and last experience with them. I cannot seem to just stop this stuff cold turkey. You feel so run down, congested, fuzzy headed and generally disconnected - sort of like you do when you have a bad sinus infection or upper respiratory virus...that foggy headed cant focus feverish feeling. This my intention to dilute and taper/wean off over a period of atleast a week. I wish I'd done more research into all the ingredients and the effect of each - but again I didn't know enough to know to do that if that makes any sense at all.

I guess that is what is so frustrating about this. I feel sort of stupid for getting wrapped up in this and weak for allowing myself to be controlled by it this way. It seems like it should be so easy to just stop...but not so.

I'm really really scared of any long term effects or damage it may have done to my body. Atleast I KNOW what I was up against when I was addicted to the opiates and knew what to look for where my health is concerned. I have no earthly idea what any of these things can do to your body or what to look for. You said they were herbal stimulants...so I guess that means they could potentially cause heart problems. What a mess. I just feel awful. I know what I have to do and I know that like anything else I need to apply the steps and work the program and let others help me through this. I've got to talk to my husband...I can't handle having secrets like this from him...it makes me feel horrible. He is such a wonderful man. I have a beautiful family..and I feel so bad that this has happened. I just never realized...never meant for this to be this big. Lots of people take supplements and herb for health reasons and I just thought of it no different.

REZ

My heart goes out to you. I think you husband needs to know about this. I would want to know if something like this happened to my wife, since I love her and care about her health. I think your husband would be supportive. I also think you should seek medical attention/advice for this, just to be safe. Even if a physician does not know much about this herb or how to deal with it, he/she might be able to give you tests for heart problems that would require urgent attention. He/she would probably be supportive too.