Carlotta

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2muchpain

I don't care either way if AA is a religious organization or not. Sure, anybody that goes to enough meetings has to agree that there are religious overtones that are obvious in many ways. I was attacked pretty hard at a meeting for bringing this up, even though I could of listed several practices in AA that clearly have religious leanings. I don't attend the meetings to connect with my spiritual side. For me, this is a 24/7 job. Spending an hour at a meeting isn't gonna make a big difference. I feel I have a strong spiritual connection and AA had nothing to do with it. The benefits to the meetings far outweigh this issue, and anybody that does not see this is missing out on a lot IMHO.

Coldfusion

Let us not forget the Traditions. Tradition 10 states, "...the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Well, this thread is a kind of public controversy. It is a problem because individuals present their interpretation of what AA means, and this may not be the same as a group conscience.

Also, mandatory attendance--which is what drew AA into the courts in the first place--is a violation of the Anonymity Tradition. Both the parolee and the meeting secretary break their anonymity by signing an attendance sheet.

dox

You sparked off a bit of a debate here, ohwell321.
I'm in the UK as well.

To answer the your first question:
It depends . . .
on your view of religion,
on which meeting(s) you happen to go to
and what you are looking for.

If you are looking for a way to stop drinking for good and all, you might just walk into the solution to your drinking problem;
not a religious cult by any stretch of meaning or imagination.

If you are looking for an excuse to avoid AA meetings, or to keep on drinking, the religious angle is as good as any.

All of the court decisions, mentioned here, sadden me.

For, I owe a debt of gratitude to the judicial system in California (as it was in the 1980s) for giving me a taster of the AA programme when I was in my 20s.

I wasn't done, mind you.
I wasn't one of you lot.
That was my excuse.

Truth be told:
I didn't want to feel the emotions that I saw openly displayed by people who were being honest with themselves and their fellow alcoholics.

Now, I thank God that I knew where to go in my 40s, when I finally admitted that I needed to stop drinking and that I needed help.

I would respectfully suggest that anyone with an alcohol problem go to a few meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Make up your own mind.
Don't rely on others' opinions, including mine.
My opinion means nothing.

Then, at least, you will know a little about a solution that works well for many of us . . .

AA is not for everyone, obviously.

But, for me, there's more to quitting drinking than quitting drinking.

To each her own.

Fly N Buy

When this debate arises I think of Bill W and his comments about writing the BB. Barefoot sums is up nicely, I think. It is in this context I find AA so appealing........Unity first, yet individual as a snowflake.

Jimmy Burwell's influence on Bill Wilson in the writing of the Big Book was described by Wilson himself in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age. Jim militantly opposed the usage of the word "God" in consistent adherence to his agnostic philosophy. A compromise was negotiated between Wilson and Burwell with the literary employment of such terms as "power greater than ourselves."

Jim Burwell expressed in a 1957 recording at Sacramento that his agnostic stance had mellowed out over the years. However, his early militancy was perhaps a spiritual wonder! The compromise between he and Bill Wilson established an enduring principle in Alcoholics Anonymous, that of flexibility and acceptance of differing viewpoints on spiritual matters.

That vital principle paved the way for hope for all suffering alcoholics seeking sobriety and recovery from a seemingly hopeless state of body and mind.

One's religious affiliation, or lack of it; one's philosophical preferences, or none; one's theistic, or agnostic, or atheistic, or pantheistic, or virtually any relatively held notion or concept of a power greater than ourselves, could bare no relevance on one's membership in the Fellowship of the Spirit, thanks to Jim Burwell.

A.A. History - Jimmy B. - The Aetheist - After 19 Years

Love and tolerance is our creed.......

Music

I guess it just depends on whether a person wants to stop drinking, or spend time finding fault with the program that can tell them specifically how to stop drinking and change their lives. Trying to explain this simple program to some people, is like trying to pi$$ up a rope. In the end, some folks either stop drinking or die a slow death.

Carlotta

Why are you getting so defensive and using fear mongering in what was otherwise a civilized and informative discussion? Questioning and discussing AA (or any other program) and having a point of view different than yours does not mean that someone is doomed to a slow painful alcoholic death. It just mean that they do not see things the way you do.
Like they say: Keep an open mind.

I personally do not believe that AA is a religious organization but it was built on Christian spirituality (the Oxford Group) and its literature refers to a patriarchal deity.
Since each group is autonomous, some groups will be much more religious and have a much stronger Christian undercurrent than others.
Someone's experience with AA in my zip code which is the most diverse in the nation and where we do not close the meeting with the Lord's prayer but with the serenity prayer would probably be very different than that of attending a group in the heart of the Bible Belt.

Fly N Buy

Accept the things I cannot change, yes........

awuh1

Music, I have often thought that you would make a good sponsor for really low bottom drunks. The sort of drunk who would do anything asked of them without ever asking a question. I hope you don't feel like pushing people away from AA until they reach that point is acceptable. In my opinion it's quite dangerous. In fact, it has the potential to be fatal (and not just to the person who's drinking).

Might be a good time to let other people handle what seems to be so irritating for you.

Ken33xx

For some in AA any questioning of their beliefs is felt to be a dangerous assault on the very thing that keeps them sober. The result is often a tendency to aggressively pushback.

I`ll be spending time in a new city this year and I`m looking forward to the meetings. It`s a major city there`s no shortage. Anyway, one of the things I look for is honesty in shares and a relaxed atmosphere. Meetings where members tend to parrot AA slogans or regurgitate passages from the BB I usually pass.

2muchpain

Thanks. Never really thought of it that way. I was just asking questions about AA at the time, trying to understand how it works and that was just one of the things I was trying to understand. Learned my lesson that day. John

Gottalife

I'll suggest that it is true beacause the other benefits of the program, while useful to the person who is not powerless, are entirely optional, hence take what you like and leave the rest.

I don't think AA has any stance on what you believe or don't when you come in, I had no belief at all. But as a powerless alcoholic looking at AA as the absolute last resort, (AA being the idea that a spiritual awakening was my only remaining chance of recovery) I became willing to believe because it was not optional for me. And later I actually believed when I got some evidence as I worked through the steps.

Being adamant about not believing is one thing. That was a statement of fact for me. But being adamant about not even being willing to believe, well that would have kinda shut the door on recovery via the AA program, though I might have got by on the fellowship for a while. It might be called getting stuck on step 2.

Having said that I only ever met one man who had views that strong. He had a kind of aura about him. When we went to McDonalds after a meeting he wouldn't sit with us. He sat on his own, just glaring at us.

Gottalife

These days we sometimes hear a GOD acronym, the Gift of Desperation. Some of you guys have been a bit upset at Musics take on this, but it was a fact of my recovery that I didn't like God or AA, so I went and did some more drinking. Down the track a bit, my God and AA smokescreen was less compelling than the misery I was in, and I was desperate for that misery to end.

My mother, on the other hand, has continued with her "belligerent denial". She is one of those Music referred to as being on the path to an incredibly slow, painful, lonely and miserable alcoholic death. Her only companion is resentment and hatred towards the world and her family. She doesn't even know her grand children. She has been in this state for more than 30 years. This isn't meant to be scary, we can't scare alcoholics sober, it is just a statement of fact.

I was too young and had lots of other reasons why I was not alcoholic and did not need God or AA. And it wasn't anyone in AA that changed my mind. It was the booze.

"Live a spiritual life or face an alcoholic death are not always easy alternatives for the alcoholic to face" It's straight out of the book.

Solushun

I love AA!!! It is actually fun and incredible. I wouldn't say it's a cult. I've seen Muslims Jewish atheists etc all find their own spiritual path. When I did step 2, my sponsor said to take a paper and on the left side right ur old concept of higher power and the right side the new concept (create my own). If that new concept was the stars in the sky that was fine. So long as that wasn't myself (if I was really God I would have fixed my life already. And the booze can't be my HP either). Some people use "Group Of Drunks" as what feels right. Main key here is basically to be willing to be wrong and be open to new ideas.

Ken33xx

I got that beat. I knew a guy who couldn`t stay sober and it was all AA fault. He would come to meetings and complain about what was wrong with AA. The man was bad news and assaulted a member during a meeting. Meetings at the time were quite small and I didn`t feel comfortable being in the room with him. Luckily he left the country not long after.

Squizz

That's a pretty fair assesment I would say. I've been to literally thousands of AA meetings, and the last couple of years, I've come to the realization that I actually function a lot better away from AA meetings. I still go a couple of times a month, but I've went months without going, and *GASP* stayed sober. Just look around when you go: A bunch of people saying "Hi Joe! (or whoever)" in unison, and it really comes across as a bunch of people who are completely brainwashed. A bunch of drones who don't think well for themselves. Just quit on your own. I have the upmost faith you are capable of doing so.

Ken33xx

At one point I found myself basically hiding out in AA. It`s often easier to complain about life and/or preach the program than to face life on life`s terms. I`ve got friends that have no life outside of AA. It`s all about who said this or did that. Now, I like AA gossip as much as the next person but it got to be too much. So, I cut back on socializing and the meetings.

Music

I appreciate your opinion awuh1....always have. I tried the other day to use a cancer patient as an example and didn't seem to do too well with that so here's what I'm trying to get across. If I'm in dire straights and ask someone, anyone for help; doesn't matter, an MD, a shrink, in the case of cancer...an Oncologist and before they get a word out, start criticizing them and trying to tell them how to do their job, what's wrong with the way they do their job, and ways I think they can better do their job, I shouldn't be shocked or surprised if I'm told to look somewhere else and to have a nice day. When I meet a wet one for the first time, I don't try to diagnose how far down the scale he is. I ask him a few questions and then if he's willing to listen, I share with him some things about myself and how I got sober. I share with him how I felt about God/Religion when I came to AA. I felt much the same way as some folks here. I was told right from the get go to go look in the mirror, and if within a minute or so I wasn't convinced there had to be a power somewhere, more powerful than what I was looking at, maybe I wasn't ready for help yet. Unlike today where people are easily offended at hearing something like that, I got scared because I didn't want to drink any more but was also afraid not to drink. I haven't had a drink since....not that I didn't question, or sometimes put up an argument....I did but the first question coming back at me was always....."Do you want to stop drinking, or not?" My first sponsor also told me once; "You're not God and you have no right to stand in the way of someone hitting his bottom."

Tommyh

I hear you Music
2 oldtimers told me once if I wasn`t willing to go to any lenght to live the 12 steps,then I needed to get out there and get a belly full of booze and finish the job
it didn`t bother me in the least to hear that
they was right
at the time I was finding fault with AA,AA people,and I sure wasn`t going to do those steps

that drinking and misery,like Mike said,persuaded me to change my attitude

Music

I was thinking after my last post that maybe I'm off base here. Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut. There are times when I get tired of the arguing and bickering about what people think about AA. I've actually said to myself, "Why bother? You've got your sobriety. Your program has been working for a long time now so why even get involved?" When I said good bye to my first sponsor and thanked him for all he'd done for me he told me to PASS IT ON. The best way I could thank him was to help another drunk by giving to someone else, what had so freely been given to me. So, it's just not in my nature to take my ball and go home....so to speak. I can't just keep my mouth shut. I speak my piece and then let it go. I've been coming here for some time now and I have to say, I've received way more than I've given, no matter what form it takes.