Ken33xx

No, it`s not. There have been a number of state Supreme Court and federal circuit court cases--including Arnold v. Tennessee Board of Paroles (1997), Griffin v. Coughlin (New York, 1996), Warner v. Orange County Dep't. of Probation (2nd Cir. 1997), Rauser v. Horn (3rd Cir. 2001), and Kerr v. Farrey (7th Cir. 1996)-- have defined Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and other treatment programs based on AA's 12 steps as religious in nature.
Judicial notebook--Is AA's loss psychology's gain?

Ken33xx

Yes, but you didn`t include the entire paragraph which reads:

Although the Court recognizes that the ASAT Program does not appear to have any intent to impose a particular set of religious beliefs or a particular concept of God upon participants, the Court rejects this lack of intent as enough to satisfy the Establishment Clause . Terms such as "God" and "prayer" are so imbued with religious meaning that they undeniably favor a religious interpretation regardless of the fact that the ASAT Program allows for a secular interpretation of its doctrines and practices.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/c...s/i96_0137.htm

awuh1

Ken I honestly don't understand the point about including the first part of the paragraph.

I guess a big part of the point I'm trying to make is that there are legal definitions and there are dictionary (common usage) definitions.

For what it's worth I do not think anyone should be coerced into going to AA. I think that's what the courts are trying to avoid, and that's a good thing.

At the same time, I don't let the state define religion for me, much less give me a definition of God. How the court chooses to deal with offenders is a legal matter, it's not a definitive one. At least not outside of that system.

Ken33xx

In this case the court recognizes that the ASAT Program does not appear to have any intent to impose a particular set of religious beliefs or a particular concept of God upon participants.

In other words a higher power can be whatever you wish.

However, the court rejects this lack of intent (to push God or a particular higher power) as enough to satisfy the Establishment Clause .

Why?

Because terms such as "God" and "prayer" are so imbued with religious meaning that they undeniably favor a religious interpretation. And I would agree.

For example when I joined AA and heard the LP at the close of the meeting. I was surprised. I remember thinking isn`t AA supposed to be non-denominational?

Thumpalumpacus

The LP at the end is for me a simple.moment of silence, but I'll confess being startled by it at the end of my first meeting, it being a distinctly Christian ritual.

Mountainmanbob

I find AA to be most about alcoholism with a very little talk about a God as one understands a higher power.

No one attending has to believe in anything.

Mountainman

Soberpotamus

A glance at the definition of religion in a dictionary might prove beneficial to those who are seriously questioning whether AA is religious. I'm sure the entire American judicial system can't have misinterpreted the meaning of the word.

AA works by encouraging habit change via peer support and requires belief. Belief in anything, something. But belief that one can stay sober by reliance on the object of that belief.

But it's the route to the belief, and the practice of it, along with the language that undoubtedly anchor AA firmly as a fundamentally religious based organization.

Ken33xx

Yes, it is. Now, I don`t have an issue with that but do believe it`s disingenuous to suggest there isn`t a religious undercurrent to the AA program.

On the other hand I agree AA gives you an out for aspects of the AA program you find uncomfortable. And truth to tell most meetings/members aren`t going to hassle you about what you think a higher power is or isn`t. Or if you believe in a HP or not.

They are usually too busy trying to keep their own life in order.

stevieg46

Guys .Question was is AA religious ? yes/no..

AAers do or do not practice religion personal choice .

Alcohol is a power greater than ourselves .

Believe in power greater and understand what /who .personal choice .

AA does not endorse/oppose politics sect denomination = controversial -outside issue , keep it simple AA works fine .do not need to defend /promote /prove.

AA has a spanner to fit any nut ,no pissing contests please .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

Thumpalumpacus

I certainly don't have a problem with it. I'm not there to change them, I'm there to change me. I don't care who believes what, if they understand where I'm at in my addiction.

I don't hide my lack of faith if the topic arises -- and I discussed it in my first meeting, in my first share -- and I haven't felt any cold shoulder at all. As they say, I will take what I can use, and there's a hell of a lot of useful stuff.

awuh1

I agree with you about the lords prayer Thumpalumpacus. It seems to me distinctly christian and therefore the violation of a tradition.

Not disingenuous at all Ken. It comes down to a distinction between spiritual and religious. I am not one to question someones spirituality. It has nothing whatever to do with being too busy keeping my life in order. It has everything to do with respect for the beliefs of others.

I agree! The only better way is to actually participate, as in seeking help via AA. The spiritual / religious distinction then starts to becomes more apparent.

That's an interesting and very novel interpretation of the mechanism for change. I suggest that you listen to what the vast majority of those who participate in AA report. My guess is that you would find their interpretation of how AA works to be quite different, and that most would point to some form of spiritual (not religious) awakening. They, in fact, would be the best judges of what changed their lives.

BTW AA requires no belief what so ever.

Soberpotamus

Ah, you must membership into AA requires no belief. True.

But for habit change and lasting change to happen, belief is necessary.

Ken33xx

I don`t think the question of one`s spiritualty is the issue. It`s about society as a whole. No doubt there are plenty who feel there is no undercurrent of religious flavor within AA. However, a number of court rulings have shown this simply not the case. That indeed the 12-steps have a religious feel. I don`t see how anyone who reads them can think otherwise.

**Now having said that I don`t think such undertones are a reason not to at least try AA as meetings, members, sponsorship can greatly vary. Yet, this HP business is a sticking point for many new in AA.

And I understand why some get upset and leave.




**I do agree with the court rulings and don`t feel AA attendance (or lack of) should play a part in sentencing or a parole hearing.

Gottalife

For long enough we have had science trying to put its spin on a spiritual program and now we have the legal profession doing the same thing. AA (the program) is not scientific or based in law. It is spiritual and perhaps moral. The nearest it comes to the sciences might be moral psychology.

The early AAs were so called hopeless cases, ones for whom all other methods had failed. They found themselves powerless and hopeless, both prerequisites for the AA spiritual experience method of recovery. I was one such.

I claimed a religious element kept me out of AA but really that was a lie. The truth was more along the lines of I didn't like the discipline it seemed such an approach would impose on me. I rejected the God business absolutely, it was a great excuse for me not to go. But at that time I had not yet learned what it means to be powerless. I still wanted to drink, and I still wanted my problems to be solved some other way.

It comes down to powerless or not. Faith isn't an issue. Anyone who comes to AA to get sober must have some kind of faith that it will work or why bother? The question is am I powerless or not. For me the answer is yes, absolutely which is why I need to find some power, and I have done that through the program.

For another person who considers they are NOT powerless, then they don't need to find a power greater than themselves, therefore they don't need the AA program either. They don't seem to be in that tight spot of "live life on a spiritual basis or face an alcoholic death". They are not "beyond human aid." And if it is human aid that is required, AA is probably the worst place to get it. No one is qualified, no one has to meet any standards, there are no guidlines for therapy, in fact coming to AA for human aid will often lead to codependence if the person is taught to depend on others rather than a higher power. The big book warns against this practice with the sentiment of how will they ever get free if they have to come to one of us to solve every little problem.

To come to AA (having done some research) knowing that it has only one spiritually based method of recovery, and expecting it to adopt some other approach because we like the people but not the medicine really doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when one considers that AA has no other proven options to offer.

Bird615

All I know it that by the time I've been ready to get sober, I was so desperate that I wasn't about to spend any more time arguing why I couldn't do this or that suggestion.

Before I got to that point, no amount of encouragement/cajoling/advice/suggestions/begging could have stopped my drinking. Before the second time of getting sober again, I intuitively knew my drinking was not going to stop until the pain of continuing to drink became worse that the discomfort of have to do things like going back to AA or any other recovery method. This is why I would agree with the idea of going out and trying to drink some more if one is not convinced. Yes, it's life or death. Alcohol beat me into submission and I had to concede that "my way" wasn't working.

I never felt religion did anything for me before I got to AA, but when got there, I learned to develop my own spiritual beliefs there which have been continually evolving. I've also been fortunate (or maybe it was desperate) enough that I've been able to overlook the sexist/religious overtones and instead found in the program what did work for me. I don't agree with some things in AA, but to argue over those things is not worth it to me, when the program and the steps have been my best chance for a contented sobriety.

Ken33xx

That`s not necessarily true. There are still plenty of benefits to be found in the AA program. A personal inventory, learning about one`s character defects, making amends, reviewing the day and helping another alcoholic.

My feeling is if someone is quite adamant they don`t believe in a HP or turning their will over so be it. Don`t believe but keep coming back.

Then as time goes and they are settle into their AA routine they might begin to notice that guy Mike who seems to have something. And just as important doesn`t seem like he will bite their head off. So, they begin talking with you and you take it from there.

No need to run anyone out of the room by insisting on this or that. AA is supposed to be based on attraction. I certainly didn`t buy into AA hook, line and sinker when I was new but over time I noticed a few old-timers who never pushed. Seemed easy-going. So when one suggested I might think about prayer at the end of the day I gave it a shot. Actually, I can`t remember when I started but is wasn`t during the first few years I know that.

tomsteve

when i was at the point of desperation i didnt give a crap if as was religious, a cult, political, or anything else. i was gonna kill myself,wanted help, and had finally gotten enough humility to learn what aa truly was.

today, 10+ years later and still sober, i dont give a crap if people call it religious, a cult, political, or any other term. it has worked for me not only to get sober, but to give me a life i couldnt have imagined or dreamed.

but i do feel sorry for the people who feel it necessary to ridicule and criticize it without fully understanding what as is.

greatful to be a member of the largest cult in the world that would allow me to walk away at any time.

Music

AA is a spiritual program I practice religiously. If I found out I had cancer and was told I'd recover if I attended a couple meetings a week, said the Serenity Prayer to open and the Lord's Prayer to close, I think I'd find a way to get by all my personal prejudices, rather than waste a lot of time once again, picking the fly poop out of the pepper.

tomsteve

being someone who was diagnosed with cancer
if i was told that
id find another oncologist.

no one recovers from cancer either.

CousinA

Or you can come uptown and close with the Serenity Prayer

The courts do what the courts do. I'm not bound by their rulings unless I'm a parole or probation officer attempting to mandate someone to attend AA or if I'm somehow ever in the position of being mandated and I have no intention of ever going there. Been there. It sucked. Hasn't happened since I got sober so go figure.

Just my 2 cents - if AA was religious I never would have stuck around. I have no problem with anyone's religion or lack of, unless they're trying to force it on me and that hasn't happened once in a few plus decades. All I'm asked is to return the favor.

YMMV based on geography and whichever meeting you walk into. We're a pretty diverse and tolerant lot here in NYC. Our meetings run than spectrum from barely recognizable as AA to give me that old time religion back to basics BB thumping. I'm not sure what I would have done if I was in the middle of the bible belt, but like others my butt was so thoroughly kicked when I got here that I didn't notice some meetings used the LP for a couple years. When it comes up now I like the forgive us out trespassed as we forgive bit and quietly mediate on that.

AA is not our only option as it appeared to be back in the day. Some people go to AA, some find religion, others do SMART or AVRT or something else. The binary find god or go drink some more maybe isn't.

-allan