Lovenjoy

i have debated with myself on if and where to post about a dilemma i am having at a couple of my favorite meetings. i figured i could get some insight from this collective source. or at the least write it out and find some clarity.

AA is a big part of my recovery maintenance. when i was heading for serious trouble a while back i was blessed in finding 2 new really awesome meetings that i had not previously known about. they are kinda off the chart a bit..... many double digits like myself attend along with some very committed newcomers. so uplifting and i've made some new wonderful friends. so the issue.....

there is this one older guy who makes me very uncomfortable. normally i would just mention this to one or two of my guy friends and thus feel that people would run interference for me and have got my back so i could relax. well it's not that simple this time.

oh. the problem. he's a creep to women. i am not the only one. i have guys i'm very close to and we give familial hugs at meetings. this guy steps in for hugs and his hands wonder..... i make a point of no hugs from me for you buster but he still gives me the creeps with his avarice stares and behavior with women.....

anyways... the issue really is that he is some kind of god to the guys which is why i feel i can't mention the problem. has 30+ years sober, loved by newcomer guys, quotes BB from memory, etc., etc. i just recently found out he is married, which i hadn't known, and for some reason this makes me even more disgusted with his behavior. (i just removed a lot from my post which might identify...) i've fled from meetings numerous times because of feeling trapped by him .....

i have spoken with my new sponsor and she has the same dilemma with the situation and now we watch each others backs. so uncomfortable. i have basically stopped going to one meeting because of this and am really missing a few people who i only see there.

i also don't see a lot of true 'recovery' with this person so the adulation is perplexing to me. in the year or so i've seen him i have heard the same AA recording over and over from him. no authentic sharing. something i wouldn't even concern myself with normally but it is part of the dilemma i am dealing with. i would also normally move on to other meetings but these meetings are truly unique and at a level that is really important to me at this time. unfortunately my feelings about this person are beginning to interfere with the amazing fellowship and messages i so need.

i hope i have not offended by posting about this here and do not want to cause any controversy.

thoughts, ESH??? thanks for your time!

skg

What about telling him? Say what you mean without being mean and have a witness. We are not doormats so now is a good time to ask him to stop the bad behaviors, focus on your sobriety, and tell him his gestures are unwelcome.

...Or keep doing the same things, expecting someone to speak for you (and you know by now that expectations are resentments waiting to happen). Personal responsibility begins with self.

Lovenjoy

thanks skg. i am amazed at the level of fear your simple solution brought me. astounding really. speaking up for myself. why would this invoke fear? fear of what? confrontation? making an awkward situation worse? being judged?

maybe these thoughts are the underlying problem in the situation. i have examined myself and my reaction to the situation because if i'm disturbed it's something within myself. looking at why i'm not doing something about it is a new focus..... the having a witness is good advise!

pondering. thanks

skg

I understand completely. I will contemplate the future ramifications for hours or days and eventually drink over them these days if I don't do something immediately. The goobs don't deserve to live rent-free in my head and I'm the only one who suffers their bad behaviors when I harbor those thoughts. They certainly don't.
I was just looking up the term "Passive Aggressive" which used to be my M.O. for years--and kept me stoked with rage and self-righteous indignation.
Tell the fool he's not welcomed in your HulaHoop and you'll feel good about the Courage you're learning as a result of working Steps. You can even tell him AA has given you the freedom to stop his bad behaviors. OldTimer doesn't necessarily equal Sober timer....

Dave42001

Glad you brought it up here on SR... And I hope the issue goes away... You also might bring it up in your group conscience couldn't hurt... Bottom line I don't like creepy people either!! You've earned your chair...

sg1970

This is the key. It's hard for many of us to stand up for ourselves and when we do we may come off in a bad way when it finally emerges with a lot of negative energy. You sure don't want to end up owing him an amends! He has absolutely no right to be handsy. It's not acceptable inside or outside of the rooms. If this was brought to my homegroups attention the men would handle it regardless of his stature. My guess is the men already know it but have done nothing about it because no one has complained. It sounds like he needs to have a little chit chat with four or five of the other higher ups about acceptable behavior.

Great topic by the way. Things like this need to be discussed.

skg

Just a reminder that there are no "higher ups" in A.A. If there is a sense of that in meetings, THAT should be addressed to the Group Conscious. Primary Purpose and all that.
It's one of the most important factors for me, fo sho...

BobArctor

That behavior is totally unacceptable. If he is doing it to other people it's worse. Some people have a deer caught in the headlights reaction to that from past abuse which is a big deal. So, putting a stop to is a good idea.

skg makes a good point about saying what you mean without being mean. possibly allowing him to save face also.

BobArctor

oops

Ken33xx

Not much you can do except register a complaint perhaps with intergroup or maybe the chairperson of the meeting you attend. Not too long ago a local AA guru in my area (40 years of sobriety) was warned at one meeting and barred from attending another.

AA is a large fellowship and with any large group of people you will find toxic and dysfunctional individuals. Now the gents might think this guy in question is the greatest because they`re unaware of his weirdness.

But if your gut feeling tells you something is off it probably is.

Lovenjoy

i have thought that the men must know this also and wondered why they would put up with it. i hadn't considered that they may not be doing anything because us women haven't spoken to anyone. (i can really only say that i haven't said anything) what a weird circle - i haven't said anything because no one seems to notice or care and maybe they haven't said anything because to them maybe we don't care...

i must say that speaking directly to this person is not something i feel very comfortable with doing... but i am considering it. speaking to one or two of the men i consider friends is more doable for me, maybe, but that's a bit cowardly i guess.....

having this dialogue here is making me realize that speaking up has to happen as i do know this is not isolated to me and is detrimental to my serenity and possibly could be devastating to another woman. i guess a part of me felt maybe i was overreacting? some self doubt was creeping in (no pun intended!) but i do trust my instincts and this behavior is just wrong. i am really appreciative of all your input.

meeting tomorrow night. we'll see if i get brave! as mature as speaking directly to this person would be i'm not sure i can do that. i've gotten so i can't even look at him. yeah, this has festered long enough i'd say.....

Ken33xx

Personally, I found the fellowship a great place to practice boundaries.

On the other hand there`s nothing wrong with not wanting to confront the man either. Especially if you feel he'll be dismissive and/or laugh away your concern..

You could speak with the chairperson or at intergroup.

Ken33xx

My guess is many woman simply stop attending.

Having a couple of guys talk to this pillar of AA might be the best option.

(What happened at my Sunday night meeting was the group leader took the guy aside and told him to cut it out. The guy tried spouting some AA jargon in his defence but the chairperson is a big man and wasn`t hearing it. He flat out told this member with 40 years sobriety to stop it or stop coming to the meeting.)

Lovenjoy

i think you are probably right ken that women stop attending. there are only a few of us at both of these meetings. which is a shame because they are really deep meetings which i truly love going to.

it's almost like 'oh well this is how it is so live with it or leave' and i'm not willing to do that. but nothing changes if nothing changes so i will speak up. most likely in private with a guy friend who i've almost spoken to about this before.

tomsteve

Bring it up as a topic at the next meeting. Many different ways to handle it, but it MUST be taken care of. It is NOT acceptable behavior.nit is NOT something to be avoided so he can continue being a perverted predator.
Unacceptable behavior does NOT have to be accepted.

skg

I had to learn new behaviors in the rooms of AA and practice them in all my affairs. If some Old-timer is objectifying women in the rooms it MUST be okay to continue my old ways out there, right?
Of course not, but it is the tenured men in AA that are supposed to show me how to live by attraction rather than promotion.
It is also incumbent upon me to carry those "next right things" to the meetings before and after the meetings, otherwise I am part of the problem.
As for the ladies, most newcomers are just as sick and manipulative. It is a learning environment for everyone so there is no reason to get wrapped up in personally internalizing bad behavior.
If it walks like a duck, call it a duck. This is a simple program for complicated people and we are all pretty sick. Feelings get hurt, pride gets modified, and spirits grow. Or they don't and alcohol moves back in to level the field again.
Let us know how it goes, but you owe it to your recovery to be honest with yourself.

skg

Here is another approach: Suggest a topic on 13th Stepping, and say exactly what you said in the quote above without calling the guy out. Read it if you need to. You are there to stay sober and help other suffering alcoholics to achieve sobriety, no to be harassed by predatory personalities.

Your objective should be to correct the behavior, not belittle the buttmunch. He will know, as will his minions, that you are referring to his behavior. If he goes all 6th grade on you by chattering afterwards the message was received and he's got some 6 & 7th step work to do. If he fails to hear to nails on the blackboard, escalate with a witnessed F2F discussion. It IS your task, though. Nobody can feel what you're feeling, and having someone defend you without speaking out (in some manner) is codependency at it's finest--for both parties, imo.

This is tough business, this spiritual living, and it's doubly hard because we didn't learn these relationship tools earlier in our lives. Yes, it takes courage, but you will realize the fruits of conquering this fear only after you've applied it. Courage is fear that's said its prayers--we over come Fear with Faith (step 3 before step 4).

Music

I heard it said at an AA meeting years ago that no resentment is a good resentment but a resentment towards AA or anyone in AA is the most dangerous resentment to have. Why? Because that resentment keeps me from going to AA, or keeps me from going to certain meetings, in the case where a particular individual is concerned. Sounds to me that you're paying way too much attention to this person. Keep him at arms length and if he pushes the issue, don't whisper; say out loud that you prefer he not hug you. You don't need to say anything more by way of justification...just that. His program is none of your business and if you don't like what he says or the way he says it, don't listen. Pray for him and ask your HP to give everything to him that you want for yourself. When you walk into a meeting and see him, just smile and walk away. He'll get the message.

Lovenjoy

so guess who chaired the meeting tonight?! oh well. i definitely found some clarity on the situation and i will be speaking to him about my reactions to his behaviors when the time is appropriate. he is aware i have a problem with him, i'm like an open book and he seems perplexed so i will make it clear at some point.....

but i'm not allowing him rent free in my thoughts anymore. not worth it. realizing that the women have stopped attending is what has made me decide to speak with him.....

it was a great meeting. love the depth of discussion. i feel very welcome by some wonderful souls who make a point of telling me how much they appreciate my attending, as i do them. rise above i guess...

the cruz of the matter for me is the combination of creepiness along with the adulation..... he spoke at the end and the response around the table was just weird - like revival meeting you could almost hear the amens and tell em brothers. that's not how anyone else is responded to. and it was just same ole same ole rhetoric. perplexing.

great meeting though and i won't let one bad apple spoil it for me. just wanted to give an update and thank you for helping me deal with this.

Music

I've found that when someone irritates me it's usually because I let them. Now, if I say something to that person, they may not know they're bothering me in which case they may say they're sorry and adjust or, they may not care in which case they won't adjust so I have to adjust. I've also found that "expectations are nothing more than pre-meditated resentments, so if I expect someone to do something or act a certain way, I'm just asking to be disappointed. Consequently, I try not to expect things of someone else I wouldn't expect of myself.