Lord's Prayer vs The Serenity Prayer
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
I gave up my objections to the Lord's Prayer several years ago. It just seemed like too much ado about very little. When it is recited I simply close my eyes and concentrate on my own inner thoughts. It seems to be important to those who rabidly defend it and it does me no damage so I just let that few moments pass. I was raised Christian but now simply choose meditation and personal prayer as my form of spiritual connection.
As I said, since this isn't a major issue for me and seems to be of great importance to others I can just sit back and accept their wishes for the brief time it takes from my life.
Jon
As I said, since this isn't a major issue for me and seems to be of great importance to others I can just sit back and accept their wishes for the brief time it takes from my life.
Jon
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Was at a meeting there friday night, and it happened again (it happens frequently) that the speaker started to say the serenity prayer, and several members interrupt saying, "NO! We say the Lord's Prayer here!"
I know that I d be a bit taken aback if I had commuted let's say all the way from the Bronx and after sharing my e.s.h was yelled at for starting the Serenity Prayer.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Even though I think the Lord's Prayer is an excellent prayer, I don't understand how it ended up in AA meetings. It is clearly religion specific.
The Serenity Prayer, on the other hand, is mostly generic. Except for the first word. If I had my way, it would start out "Wrtu, grant me the serenity..."
(Whatever Runs The Universe)
The Serenity Prayer, on the other hand, is mostly generic. Except for the first word. If I had my way, it would start out "Wrtu, grant me the serenity..."
(Whatever Runs The Universe)
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
I wonder how the ultimate authority will express Himself in this group conscience.
Our meetings usually have a written format which, if the speaker is going to close the meeting, is given to him as a guide. More commonly the secretary will take over for the closing of the meeting, thanking the speaker, asking about any business, and then closing in whatever way the group conscience has decided. In this way there is no risk of embarrasing the speaker.
Most of our groups close with the serenity prayer, some with the LP, one or two with the Toronto Declaration, and one group sings some Maori prayers at the end.
Perhaps the solution might be found not in throwing the prayer out, but in changing the format so the secretary or other home group member handles the closing, perhaps with the addition of an invitation for those who want to, to join us in the lp to close the meeting.
One thing I feel ought to be avoided is the GC ambush, something that happens a lot here. Someone gets a bee in their bonnet, raises it with great passion at the GC, power drives it through on emotion, attending members being weak on tradition and group history fold under the onslaught, and bad decisions are made.
For such a core issue it would be nice if the matter could be raised as a notice of motion at the first GC allowing for a period of discussion and reflection before voting at the second GC. Participation of all the group ought to be encouraged for such a change in format.
Our meetings usually have a written format which, if the speaker is going to close the meeting, is given to him as a guide. More commonly the secretary will take over for the closing of the meeting, thanking the speaker, asking about any business, and then closing in whatever way the group conscience has decided. In this way there is no risk of embarrasing the speaker.
Most of our groups close with the serenity prayer, some with the LP, one or two with the Toronto Declaration, and one group sings some Maori prayers at the end.
Perhaps the solution might be found not in throwing the prayer out, but in changing the format so the secretary or other home group member handles the closing, perhaps with the addition of an invitation for those who want to, to join us in the lp to close the meeting.
One thing I feel ought to be avoided is the GC ambush, something that happens a lot here. Someone gets a bee in their bonnet, raises it with great passion at the GC, power drives it through on emotion, attending members being weak on tradition and group history fold under the onslaught, and bad decisions are made.
For such a core issue it would be nice if the matter could be raised as a notice of motion at the first GC allowing for a period of discussion and reflection before voting at the second GC. Participation of all the group ought to be encouraged for such a change in format.
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,763
Originally Posted by NoelleR 
In 1959, Bill W. wrote (in part) the following regarding the Lord's Prayer in AA meetings..............:
"...it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched..."
I never particularly cared for Bill W. (not a very nice man), however, this statement had me rolling in the isles....widespread use?....Christian origin a little farfetched?....
In my early sobriety, I was in a meeting in SF where a person chose to use the Lord's Prayer saying that.....well, everyone grows up with the Lord's Prayer. I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud and leaned over to my friend and asked her if she grew up reciting the Lord's Payer in her house......NO, she is and was Jewish; no Lord's Prayer in her household.
How could a man, supposedly so intelligent make such an ignorant statement? Nowadays, at the end of meetings, I usually excuse myself and leave early, meeting outside for conviviality and often 'out for meals' (loaves and fishes anyone....? lolol).
(o:
NoelleR
"...it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched..."
I never particularly cared for Bill W. (not a very nice man), however, this statement had me rolling in the isles....widespread use?....Christian origin a little farfetched?....
In my early sobriety, I was in a meeting in SF where a person chose to use the Lord's Prayer saying that.....well, everyone grows up with the Lord's Prayer. I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud and leaned over to my friend and asked her if she grew up reciting the Lord's Payer in her house......NO, she is and was Jewish; no Lord's Prayer in her household.
How could a man, supposedly so intelligent make such an ignorant statement? Nowadays, at the end of meetings, I usually excuse myself and leave early, meeting outside for conviviality and often 'out for meals' (loaves and fishes anyone....? lolol).
(o:
NoelleR
A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord’s Prayer At A.A. Meetings
April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,
Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did want to explain my delay.
Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.
This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.
Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general
consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.
So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.
Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of you both.
May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.
Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson
http://silkworth.net/pdf/BillsLetter...ordsPrayer.pdf
WGW/ni Mr. Russ
From the A.A. Archives in New York
April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,
Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did want to explain my delay.
Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.
This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.
Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general
consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.
So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.
Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of you both.
May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.
Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson
http://silkworth.net/pdf/BillsLetter...ordsPrayer.pdf
WGW/ni Mr. Russ
From the A.A. Archives in New York
What I take away from Bill's letter is that you can't please everyone all of the time, and tolerance is a virtue. I do agree that if the majority of home group members in a particular AA group feel the Lord's prayer or any other prayer deemed as Christian is inappropriate then by all means remove them from the meeting format. At that point tolerance for a lack of prayer then falls on the minority of the group.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Joe I'm not what you'd call a religious man but have been taking a little time to reacquaint myself with the Lords Prayer lately. "Sermon on The Mount" by Emmet Fox has a great little passage at the end which has encouraged me to look again with an open mind. Its always intrigued me that this short prayer has been held in such esteem by so many different groups over the years. I wonder if there is more to it than meets the eye.
As for recital at the end of a meeting...we tend to have that problem less here in the UK but surely it's just a group conscience thing...if it's what the meeting decides so be it. And there ain't no Musts in the Fellowship of AA...they can require it to be said in a meeting, but they sure as hell can't force any individual member to SAY it
P
As for recital at the end of a meeting...we tend to have that problem less here in the UK but surely it's just a group conscience thing...if it's what the meeting decides so be it. And there ain't no Musts in the Fellowship of AA...they can require it to be said in a meeting, but they sure as hell can't force any individual member to SAY it
P
AA member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 872
I have never been to an AA meeting where the Lord's Prayer was said.
We always say the serenity Prayer at the end of the meetings.
The meetings I attend are multi-cultural,I don't think a group conscience meeting would ever agree to the Lord's Prayer being said.
We always say the serenity Prayer at the end of the meetings.
The meetings I attend are multi-cultural,I don't think a group conscience meeting would ever agree to the Lord's Prayer being said.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mgm, AL
Posts: 1,000
Amazing to me how many folks lose sight of the whole concept of humility at depth. Lots of people drank gin around me when I was drinking and I never once asked them to stop drinking it because I didn't drink it. They did what they did and I did what I did--and I managed to live through it.
I'd suggest that if one doesn't like the Lord's Prayer, keep silent and read page 62. One person's disbelief doesn't minimize the existence of God in the lives of others, so take what you need and leave the rest.
I'd suggest that if one doesn't like the Lord's Prayer, keep silent and read page 62. One person's disbelief doesn't minimize the existence of God in the lives of others, so take what you need and leave the rest.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
It is funny how everyone recommends humility for others but not themselves.
One's belief in a Christian god should not minimize the beliefs of non-Christians.
At the end of a meeting, unity should be the goal not exclusion and a prayer that is open to the higher power of everyone's understanding is an obvious goal. But pride makes us want to privilege our own beliefs against those of other.
Humility is not just a virtue, but in the context of AA it can also be a lifesaver.
One's belief in a Christian god should not minimize the beliefs of non-Christians.
At the end of a meeting, unity should be the goal not exclusion and a prayer that is open to the higher power of everyone's understanding is an obvious goal. But pride makes us want to privilege our own beliefs against those of other.
Humility is not just a virtue, but in the context of AA it can also be a lifesaver.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Originally Posted by freshstart57
I'm astounded that he discounts its Judeo-Christian origin because of its wide acceptance. By Judeo-Christians.
tautology, really....blinders.
and it's good to remember that the OP isn't about the prayer per se, or resenting it or those who pray it/want to hear it, but about the requirement. at an AA meeting.
those who want to pray it are free to pray it anytime. imposing it is something else entirely.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
At the end of a meeting, unity should be the goal not exclusion and a prayer that is open to the higher power of everyone's understanding is an obvious goal.
nicely put, mf.
though i'd change the "is" to "should be" in the last part also.
nicely put, mf.
though i'd change the "is" to "should be" in the last part also.
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,763
Originally Posted by fini
some nice circular reasoning there, yes?
tautology, really....blinders.
and it's good to remember that the OP isn't about the prayer per se, or resenting it or those who pray it/want to hear it, but about the requirement. at an AA meeting.
those who want to pray it are free to pray it anytime. imposing it is something else entirely.
tautology, really....blinders.
and it's good to remember that the OP isn't about the prayer per se, or resenting it or those who pray it/want to hear it, but about the requirement. at an AA meeting.
those who want to pray it are free to pray it anytime. imposing it is something else entirely.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by Grungehead
I've never been to an AA meeting where anything was imposed on anyone...ever. I think what Joe was saying is that the group has decided that it is the only prayer to be used at the end of the meeting and cannot be substituted with a different prayer. That is an individual group conscious decision and is not imposing the Lord's Prayer on anyone. You can say it, not say it, listen to it, not listen to it, leave early, or not go at all.
Yet, it would be uncomfortable and awkward for a speaker to decide on the spot when closing a meeting that they didn't want to say it. It's unexpected. It's uncomfortable and awkward too when someone interrupts the serenity prayer in protest saying, "No. We say the Lord's Prayer here." Makes me uncomfortable anyhow.
In an interesting side note, another thing the deacons of the group held onto was pots of coffee being brewed on the stove. It was a lot of work. They had a bunch of pots they'd keep on the stove, and then put out on each table during the break. I kinda understood that they liked the tradition behind it. It had been like that since the group opened and had sentimental value, but whenever the idea of making things a lot more simple with a modern coffee maker came up... the gates of hell would open. It wasn't going to happen. No way. Pretty much due to 1 or 2 very outspoken "elder statesmen".
So.... group conscience went one way, and then hurricane sandy visited flooding the entire room w 6 ft of water. All the stoves were ruined. Seems HP, who or whatever that might be (and in this case one could say it was sandy), really had the final say. They have modern plug in coffee makers now. I'm actually a little sad about that. But I think there's a message or lesson to be had there.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
...Anyhow, I'd like to request that they stop this ridiculousness (not in those words of course ) at the next business meeting, but want to go in as armed as possible, as I will be coming against some real powerful people with some big guns.
) at the next business meeting, but want to go in as armed as possible, as I will be coming against some real powerful people with some big guns.But I don't think I need tell you you'll **** off a lot of the heavy hitters especially if the motion passes.
The Long and Winding Road....
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Brisbane QLD
Posts: 897
Originally Posted by NoelleR
In 1959, Bill W. wrote (in part) the following regarding the Lord's Prayer in AA meetings..............:
"...it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched..."
I never particularly cared for Bill W. (not a very nice man), however, this statement had me rolling in the isles....widespread use?....Christian origin a little farfetched?....
In my early sobriety, I was in a meeting in SF where a person chose to use the Lord's Prayer saying that.....well, everyone grows up with the Lord's Prayer. I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud and leaned over to my friend and asked her if she grew up reciting the Lord's Payer in her house......NO, she is and was Jewish; no Lord's Prayer in her household.
How could a man, supposedly so intelligent make such an ignorant statement? Nowadays, at the end of meetings, I usually excuse myself and leave early, meeting outside for conviviality and often 'out for meals' (loaves and fishes anyone....? lolol).
(o:
NoelleR
"...it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched..."
I never particularly cared for Bill W. (not a very nice man), however, this statement had me rolling in the isles....widespread use?....Christian origin a little farfetched?....
In my early sobriety, I was in a meeting in SF where a person chose to use the Lord's Prayer saying that.....well, everyone grows up with the Lord's Prayer. I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud and leaned over to my friend and asked her if she grew up reciting the Lord's Payer in her house......NO, she is and was Jewish; no Lord's Prayer in her household.
How could a man, supposedly so intelligent make such an ignorant statement? Nowadays, at the end of meetings, I usually excuse myself and leave early, meeting outside for conviviality and often 'out for meals' (loaves and fishes anyone....? lolol).
(o:
NoelleR
the serenity prayer is fine
Lord's Prayer.......nah
v
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