Sobriety
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 296
I agree, many put their HP in the Group of Drunks. God walks, talks and shakes hands in the rooms of AA. But do not be fooled, just because one goes to 90 meetings in 90 days means little to nothing. You are not "cured" on day 91, nor are you even recovered. Sure it puts the AA seed in your brain, and changes your drinking forever. It might be better to change that AA slogan up a little and instead of killing newcomers with 90 in 90, say something like get to step 9 by day 90. Or get to step 4 by day 30. Read the forwards, doc's opinion up to step 5. Whatever you know. I have seen newcomers come in, been told, take your time, no rush, come in take a load off, have some coffee, get comfortable, when you feel better then you can work the steps. They are dead very quickly. We work the steps to feel better, not the other way around.
Get a Big Book, Get a Sponsor, Get a Home Group. Become apart of, clean the room, make the coffee, help out. Work the steps!
Life on a spiritual basis or alcoholic death. Your choice.
AA was the last stop for me. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I would do anything that was suggested to not get drunk again. Relapse does not have to be apart of the AA program, there are people who get it the first time. I have seen it with my very own eyes, I was sponsoring this one fellow named "Nathan". Wasnt the brightest cookie in the jar, in fact he had mild retardation and seemed like he was about 15 yrs left behind in mentallity and matureness. He told me he had a learning disabled, with a mild form of retardation. We got right to work when I walked up to him after a meeting 25 years ago, and I gave him my business card, and gave him a free Big Book which everyone in the room signed. I told him to call me after he read the first chapter. He read it and called me the next morning. I then got to work sponsoring him, taking him through the steps as fast and methodical as poossible. He is sober today and I speak with him regularly. If this chap "Nathan" can do it, anyone can do it.
Very simple steps, but hard work!
Get a Big Book, Get a Sponsor, Get a Home Group. Become apart of, clean the room, make the coffee, help out. Work the steps!
Life on a spiritual basis or alcoholic death. Your choice.
AA was the last stop for me. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I would do anything that was suggested to not get drunk again. Relapse does not have to be apart of the AA program, there are people who get it the first time. I have seen it with my very own eyes, I was sponsoring this one fellow named "Nathan". Wasnt the brightest cookie in the jar, in fact he had mild retardation and seemed like he was about 15 yrs left behind in mentallity and matureness. He told me he had a learning disabled, with a mild form of retardation. We got right to work when I walked up to him after a meeting 25 years ago, and I gave him my business card, and gave him a free Big Book which everyone in the room signed. I told him to call me after he read the first chapter. He read it and called me the next morning. I then got to work sponsoring him, taking him through the steps as fast and methodical as poossible. He is sober today and I speak with him regularly. If this chap "Nathan" can do it, anyone can do it.
Very simple steps, but hard work!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
My sponsor told me a while back that meds were killing people.
When I got sober I was at a psych hospital and the first night there was stuffed with meds I didn't want. I said I didn't want them but I didn't know I had the right to speak up loud enough and say NO.
I was bamboozled into the psych system for years.
When I started doing the Big Book process what I dealt with from therapists and psychiatrists was some of the sickest manipulative behavior I ever experienced, people wanting me to stay stuck and not trust the spiritual.
I have never worked with a therapist or psychiatrist who could be trusted.
During my 4th step (over 18 months) my need for meds subsided because I was replacing it with a Higher Power and getting well the right way.
Not being a consumer of the mental health system anymore where I could controlled by other sick people was a goal for me in recovery, once I realized the need for it.
When I got sober I was at a psych hospital and the first night there was stuffed with meds I didn't want. I said I didn't want them but I didn't know I had the right to speak up loud enough and say NO.
I was bamboozled into the psych system for years.
When I started doing the Big Book process what I dealt with from therapists and psychiatrists was some of the sickest manipulative behavior I ever experienced, people wanting me to stay stuck and not trust the spiritual.
I have never worked with a therapist or psychiatrist who could be trusted.
During my 4th step (over 18 months) my need for meds subsided because I was replacing it with a Higher Power and getting well the right way.
Not being a consumer of the mental health system anymore where I could controlled by other sick people was a goal for me in recovery, once I realized the need for it.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr 
I'm sober 23 years and, since I also suffer from depression, have been taking anti-depressants the entire time. I wouldn't be alive without them.
Judging from the complaints I've heard by those on such medication it isn't well meaning advice which annoys them but members who insist that one isn't truly sober if on anti-depressants.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
Same here. I always felt I had a choice. I could change my brain chemistry with a pill/chemical to mask what I'm feeling, or I can learn to accept the feeling and find ways that will heal it. My depressions, my anxiety, panic and phobias weren't situational. I know full well the feeling of nothing on the outside being able to change what was on the inside. And I was told by many well meaning therapists and psychiatrists that I suffered from imbalances, and needed to be treated medically. That I was fighting a losing battle. Funny, I don't feel that way today. I'm not depressed. I'm not freaking out with panic and anxiety. Will it ever happen again? I'm pretty sure it will, and it may last for while too - but it doesn't stop me from functioning, as that's one of the main things I've learned from my experience with it all.
People ask me, so why do you choose to suffer with depression when you don't have to? My answer is partly in what I wrote in my initial post here. More accurately though, I don't ever want to experience what I've seen in many people when they go a course of antidepressants for a year a more. I've seen people, even under a doctor's care attempt to get off them. I've seen them unable to do it, also. And find themselves in a much worse state then when they started treatment. It's why I believe many just accept that this is something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Well, I don't have to. And I was a prime candidate for that type of treatment.
In AA and on SR I continually hear people say that the best thing someone can do is discuss their depression with their doctor. That's not a fact. That's the opinion of the people giving that advice. And they go on to say that nobody other than a doctor should/could give medical advice. Giving medical advice best be left to the professionals? While I understand the intent behind that thinking and don't think it's meant maliciously, I disagree with it completely. And I feel that saying that is in fact "giving medical advice". Moreso than someone saying ya might want to think twice before popping that first pill. Doctors, especially psychiatrists are trained to treat things medically. It's what they do. In the US you would be truly hard pressed to find a psychiatrist that will recommend a course of exercise before prescribing welbutrin. Exercise has been proven statistically time and time again to be equally effective, but that's not the path an MD will put you on. Not in my experience, or anyone I've spoken to yet.
To take ones depression/anxiety/panic to a doctor is essentially a decision to medically treat those ailments. If someone goes into it knowing that, then I have no problem hearing when it's suggested. If someone goes walks into a psychiatrists office thinking they're going to get the most informed, best way to treat their problem - then I do feel they're being very misguided.
Again, this is NOT medical advice - and I'm not a doctor. It's my opinion and experience. My experience also tells me as it's been already stated more than once, that if someone IS already on medication, to stop without strict medical supervision can often be deadly. It is in my understanding one of the worst things anyone can possibly do. I would never ever suggest that anyone stops taking prescribed medication. I would only suggest that if going to a doctor to treat these problems, you go in educated and fully informed. And have an understanding of both sides of the story.
People ask me, so why do you choose to suffer with depression when you don't have to? My answer is partly in what I wrote in my initial post here. More accurately though, I don't ever want to experience what I've seen in many people when they go a course of antidepressants for a year a more. I've seen people, even under a doctor's care attempt to get off them. I've seen them unable to do it, also. And find themselves in a much worse state then when they started treatment. It's why I believe many just accept that this is something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Well, I don't have to. And I was a prime candidate for that type of treatment.
In AA and on SR I continually hear people say that the best thing someone can do is discuss their depression with their doctor. That's not a fact. That's the opinion of the people giving that advice. And they go on to say that nobody other than a doctor should/could give medical advice. Giving medical advice best be left to the professionals? While I understand the intent behind that thinking and don't think it's meant maliciously, I disagree with it completely. And I feel that saying that is in fact "giving medical advice". Moreso than someone saying ya might want to think twice before popping that first pill. Doctors, especially psychiatrists are trained to treat things medically. It's what they do. In the US you would be truly hard pressed to find a psychiatrist that will recommend a course of exercise before prescribing welbutrin. Exercise has been proven statistically time and time again to be equally effective, but that's not the path an MD will put you on. Not in my experience, or anyone I've spoken to yet.
To take ones depression/anxiety/panic to a doctor is essentially a decision to medically treat those ailments. If someone goes into it knowing that, then I have no problem hearing when it's suggested. If someone goes walks into a psychiatrists office thinking they're going to get the most informed, best way to treat their problem - then I do feel they're being very misguided.
Again, this is NOT medical advice - and I'm not a doctor. It's my opinion and experience. My experience also tells me as it's been already stated more than once, that if someone IS already on medication, to stop without strict medical supervision can often be deadly. It is in my understanding one of the worst things anyone can possibly do. I would never ever suggest that anyone stops taking prescribed medication. I would only suggest that if going to a doctor to treat these problems, you go in educated and fully informed. And have an understanding of both sides of the story.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 46
i agree Noelle
Yep, that has, tragically, been my experience too Noelle. I know a tremendous number of people who go to different recovery programs for their alcoholism because they didn't find what they needed, and they are doing very, very well. In fact, the big book says just that in working with others, that a person may decide a different recovery approach is for them, and that we are to encourage him or her to follow their own conscience then, as we have no monopoly on God. And that is true of people who have problems with mental illness; too many times i have seen them listen to people at aa meetings tell them not to take their meds and do the therapy they needed, to just keep coming back to meetings, etc. acting like AA is the solution for everything, even though the big book says to do just the opposite, that God has put good doctors and therapists out there for a reason. unless that person sitting right there in that AA chair personally takes responsibility for that person whose life they are placing at risk by convincing them to go off their meds or their therapy plan, then their opinion is just their opinion at one point but in the larger point it is an irresponsible use of the trust that a newcomer or anyone else has in their newfound AA friend, and in my opinion lacks the essence of humility. I am not qualified by any stretch of the imagination to be giving out advice like that to people. What i can do is pray for them.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Just feel the need to make clear that I know full well and very clearly the difference between situational depression, and what's been labelled clinical depression. I know what it feels like to open your eyes in the morning when everything in your life is pretty swell, yet lay there for 2 hours and obsess on a way to end it all that won't be too painful, and won't destroy the lives of all who love you. The feeling that every single corpuscle in your body is infected with some horrible negativity from beyond, and feel (almost know) there is absolutely nothing, not even god, that can fix it. I know that kind of pain. I know it to have lasted months, even years in varying degrees... and I know that each time I encountered it, it got just a little bit easier to navigate.
I know too what if feels like to have that pain compounded by shattering life events that make it feel as though I have 50 lb weights strapped to my limbs and back. I know what it means to have my nerves so tangled that I'd gag if I tried to speak to anyone.
I could go into great gory detail describing what my pain has felt like at certain times in my life. Pain I was convinced was out of my control, a physical, and not a mental thing. I'm sure it was physical in some ways. I'm sure my brain chemistry was very out of whack, but so is everyone else's on the planet. And I've found that it can get back into balance, without my adding any chemicals to it.
I'm happy today. Very happy in fact. Last year, can't really say the same. 2 months from now, who knows. But I'm not afraid. And I find myself content, even during times now that I might still experience depressions. I have a very big tool box, and with practice I've become pretty expert at using those tools. If they all ever stopped working, and I found myself at the edge of a cliff one day, I'd pop some zoloft. I'm as confident however of that not happening, as I am confident that I won't be picking up another glass of alcohol. And I work daily at keeping myself both sober, and sane. I consider myself a high maintenance alcoholic
, and I pamper and treat myself as such.
I know too what if feels like to have that pain compounded by shattering life events that make it feel as though I have 50 lb weights strapped to my limbs and back. I know what it means to have my nerves so tangled that I'd gag if I tried to speak to anyone.
I could go into great gory detail describing what my pain has felt like at certain times in my life. Pain I was convinced was out of my control, a physical, and not a mental thing. I'm sure it was physical in some ways. I'm sure my brain chemistry was very out of whack, but so is everyone else's on the planet. And I've found that it can get back into balance, without my adding any chemicals to it.
I'm happy today. Very happy in fact. Last year, can't really say the same. 2 months from now, who knows. But I'm not afraid. And I find myself content, even during times now that I might still experience depressions. I have a very big tool box, and with practice I've become pretty expert at using those tools. If they all ever stopped working, and I found myself at the edge of a cliff one day, I'd pop some zoloft. I'm as confident however of that not happening, as I am confident that I won't be picking up another glass of alcohol. And I work daily at keeping myself both sober, and sane. I consider myself a high maintenance alcoholic
, and I pamper and treat myself as such.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Joe,
I really appreciate your input. It's great that everyone feels free to give their opinions openly on this forum. It gives everybody an honest perspective on both sides of this issue. Sounds like you are doing great. Keep up the good work. John
I really appreciate your input. It's great that everyone feels free to give their opinions openly on this forum. It gives everybody an honest perspective on both sides of this issue. Sounds like you are doing great. Keep up the good work. John
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
I understand that some have had unethical or incompetent doctors. Unfortunately, we live in a world dominated by greed and, in this country to some extent, by the pharmaceutical industry but to lay all that on the doorstep of competent and ethical doctors is, well, just wrong in that it smacks of prejudice. Also, to label, as I gather, all depressives, and other mental/emotional illness I gather, as either just weak or godless is, in my view, the same. Even when depression is situational, before blood work determines its not, meds are often prescribed in order for a patient to be able to undergo talk therapy... they're just not responsive enough to undergo it. So, if a doctor was really unethical, they would with hold them and just have the patient keep coming back for fruitless office visits raking in the dough until, possibly, the patient just commits suicide. I think some logic is called for rather than jumping to prejudicial conclusions. And speaking of prejudice, has the mental and, consequent emotional, area been set back a century denying any physical basis for occurrence? That's the discrimination people with those conditions used to live with. Its sad to see it happening among people who maintain anonymity due to prejudice. I also have to wonder about why anyone would continue being "force fed" (debatable) meds instead of choosing a behavioral psychologist who uses talk therapy and would, incidentally, refer someone whose blood work showed chemical imbalance to an md. Something just doesn't ring right when I hear people whining about being force fed pharmaceutical cocktails and having their lives destroyed in the process. It smacks of the pity pot victim game. The thing is it instills fear in those hearing the stories among those who need treatment. I also hear doctors slammed with how easy it is to get drugs from them. That's not true... not where I live including state-wide. Even ten years ago when moving I needed to find a new doctor right away as I have a chronic condition. In call after call I was told outright that if I needed pain meds or mood altering substances the doctor would not take me on as a patient. I didn't but that was part of the standard greeting. It left me wondering though just what patients who need those do. Maybe if they're suffering from severe arthritis or diabetic neuropathy they just find a 12-step program? Facetious but really too. Unethical doctors, addicts, an overly-zealous government threatening good, ethical doctors, prejudiced people slamming all drug treatments are causing many to needlessly live in pain. So, yeh, there's a flip side to everything. The key, to me, is to at least try to be logical and not paint everything with such a wide brush.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
We all have choices. We can treat all our illnesses however we choose. Some choose to treat themselves holistically, others medically. When holistic methods are applied, people recover and get healed. When medical means are applied, sometimes the body heals itself regardless, but often the medical treatment becomes a lifelong thing. And often times it causes additional ailments. It goes for both physical, and mental treatment.
What upsets me is when I hear people give the impression that it is impossible to recover from certain types of depression/anxiety without medication. That's simply not true in my experience. I know from my my own healing, and the experience of many others. It may be true for some unwilling or unable to make necessary changes, but the theory regarding imbalances is misleading, and very well documented as such. While blood can be tested for diseases that might cause depression, it cannot yet be accurately tested for brain imbalances. I've been told many times, by many professionals, that I suffered from imbalances, yet none of those people telling me that ever took my blood.
Some people choose a medical route. I don't have any problem with that. Others choose a holistic route. I'd feel a little less alone if more did, but I'm okay with that too. I believe people should be crystal clear about both sides of this before making a decision. And while doctors often believe completely the information they're passing along, and have spent years studying, it doesn't necessarily mean they're right.
If we live another 1000 years from now I am certain what we're doing will be considered archaic. We don't know as much scientifically as the medical community would have us believe.
What upsets me is when I hear people give the impression that it is impossible to recover from certain types of depression/anxiety without medication. That's simply not true in my experience. I know from my my own healing, and the experience of many others. It may be true for some unwilling or unable to make necessary changes, but the theory regarding imbalances is misleading, and very well documented as such. While blood can be tested for diseases that might cause depression, it cannot yet be accurately tested for brain imbalances. I've been told many times, by many professionals, that I suffered from imbalances, yet none of those people telling me that ever took my blood.
Some people choose a medical route. I don't have any problem with that. Others choose a holistic route. I'd feel a little less alone if more did, but I'm okay with that too. I believe people should be crystal clear about both sides of this before making a decision. And while doctors often believe completely the information they're passing along, and have spent years studying, it doesn't necessarily mean they're right.
If we live another 1000 years from now I am certain what we're doing will be considered archaic. We don't know as much scientifically as the medical community would have us believe.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
What upsets me is when I hear people give the impression that it is impossible to recover from certain types of depression/anxiety without medication.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by freshstart57
Can you clarify what you are saying? Are you actually saying that you believe it is possible to recover from ALL types of depression/anxiety WITHOUT medication? No equivocation - Yes / No.
I do however know it's possible to recover from depression that I was told, many times, it was impossible to recover from without medication.
And you can't control my responses. Sorry bout that.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by freshstart57
Can you clarify what you are saying? Are you actually saying that you believe it is possible to recover from ALL types of depression/anxiety WITHOUT medication? No equivocation - Yes / No.
i am not a super human being yet i have to cope daily with my own pain in this world
the reason i can cope is that i am grateful for just being sober and having simple things in life and value them, were as before i learned this way of life i would be been full of poor me and looking for an easy way out of feeling low or bad
i would stay indoors or stay on a computer as my only escape as thats what i always looked for
i have had to be hard on me and how i am as a person and grow some balls in this world
thanks to many kicks up the bum over the years the penny has dropped in my head
the problem is me so what am i going to do about me ? not what anything else can do about me
but you really have to work on yourself and many just give in to easy in my mind
i am proud that i am in recovery and that means i dont take anything for feeling low or bad i just have to live with it and it will pass so long as i get off my pity pot and do somthing if i dont then i would run to a dr for a pill as i would convince myself i will never get over it there must be something wrong with me etc
so i can only go by my own experience and how i work it in my life it works for me and for many others who are really working on themselves
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Yes, you know that,joe.
And I know it's possible to walk into someone's house that decided to go off their anti delressants,put a shotgun in their mouth and pull the trigger.
I hope you don't have to experience that.
And I hope no one here on anti depressants decides to stop them after reading your experience.
Yes, there's some people out there on meds that don't need them, but it's their life and not very wise to be posting your opinions on it here.
Some things are better left unsaid.
And I know it's possible to walk into someone's house that decided to go off their anti delressants,put a shotgun in their mouth and pull the trigger.
I hope you don't have to experience that.
And I hope no one here on anti depressants decides to stop them after reading your experience.
Yes, there's some people out there on meds that don't need them, but it's their life and not very wise to be posting your opinions on it here.
Some things are better left unsaid.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Originally Posted by tomsteve
Yes, you know that,joe.
And I know it's possible to walk into someone's house that decided to go off their anti delressants,put a shotgun in their mouth and pull the trigger.
I hope you don't have to experience that.
And I hope no one here on anti depressants decides to stop them after reading your experience.
Yes, there's some people out there on meds that don't need them, but it's their life and not very wise to be posting your opinions on it here.
Some things are better left unsaid.
And I know it's possible to walk into someone's house that decided to go off their anti delressants,put a shotgun in their mouth and pull the trigger.
I hope you don't have to experience that.
And I hope no one here on anti depressants decides to stop them after reading your experience.
Yes, there's some people out there on meds that don't need them, but it's their life and not very wise to be posting your opinions on it here.
Some things are better left unsaid.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
And did you never stop to consider that maybe your friend might be alive if they never took medication in the first place? Everyone I know who killed themselves were either on medication, or stopped AMA. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I don't know a single person who's killed themselves who wasn't previously medicated. Ever think that maybe my message might save some lives, and yours do the opposite? Yeah, I'm well aware of the fact that im outnumbered on this forum, but that doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. I've been sharing my experience strength and hope. If it doesn't coincide with decisions you've made and u feel compelled to comment on my experience, why don't ya just put me on ignore? I'm out of this thread now. I've said all I need and want to.
And I agree and have stated more than once that to stop medication once on it can be deadly. You seem to be getting what u want out of my posts though.
And I agree and have stated more than once that to stop medication once on it can be deadly. You seem to be getting what u want out of my posts though.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,445
This is one of those emotive issues, but it's not going to be solved here.
It's ok to push your chair back and do something else for a while, guys
Peace on earth and good will to everyone, right?
D
It's ok to push your chair back and do something else for a while, guys
Peace on earth and good will to everyone, right?
D
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
And did you never stop to consider that maybe your friend might be alive if they never took medication in the first place?
Very disrespectful to a dead man and his family joe.
Have a blessed christmas.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by tomsteve
I'm not going to answer that but you are one very sick man to even ask that.
Very disrespectful to a dead man and his family joe.
Have a blessed christmas.
Very disrespectful to a dead man and his family joe.
Have a blessed christmas.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
the fact is and has to be faced that people do kill themselves while on medications, like i said there is an aa guy who is 40 odd years sober and his life has turned upside down, he ran to the drs for meds and ended up trying to kill himself
he is now in a home as he can not look after himself and is walking around like zombie full of drugs
i believe that would happen to me just as i believe what taking one drink would lead me to
now is my belief sick ? am i wrong not to notice what happens to others and take a warning from it ?
i wouldn't ever tell anyone not to go and see a dr if that's what they want to do but for me there are risks to my very existence that i dare not take.
working and living the way i have been shown has made some progress in me as i am able to get out and about now and start to help others again, that simple idea really does work for me just so long as i work hard to push myself,
i have had to go back to basics and that means putting one foot infront of the other and what happens when i do
the fellowship of aa has shown me how to change and to put in the effort over and over again
i have a soul sickness and a sickness in the mind that tells me not to do anything other than stay locked up isolated from everyone and anything
so i have to do the opersite of what my head tells me just like i had to in the early days when my problem was how to get through a day without a drink
he is now in a home as he can not look after himself and is walking around like zombie full of drugs
i believe that would happen to me just as i believe what taking one drink would lead me to
now is my belief sick ? am i wrong not to notice what happens to others and take a warning from it ?
i wouldn't ever tell anyone not to go and see a dr if that's what they want to do but for me there are risks to my very existence that i dare not take.
working and living the way i have been shown has made some progress in me as i am able to get out and about now and start to help others again, that simple idea really does work for me just so long as i work hard to push myself,
i have had to go back to basics and that means putting one foot infront of the other and what happens when i do
the fellowship of aa has shown me how to change and to put in the effort over and over again
i have a soul sickness and a sickness in the mind that tells me not to do anything other than stay locked up isolated from everyone and anything
so i have to do the opersite of what my head tells me just like i had to in the early days when my problem was how to get through a day without a drink
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