"Alcoholics Anonymous wrestles with its spiritual roots"
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
I know Roger C. in the article posted in the OP. He's actually quite a knowledgeable man and has a thirst for AA history and the 12 steps in general (I'll be talking to him this week actually...I won't mention this thread...ha ha). Now, do I see eye-to-eye with him on the agnostic AA front? Not entirely. God might not be in their picture, but certainly there is room for a HP.
You must understand that there was a little bit of a kerfuffle a few years ago up here when Intergroup delisted two AA groups because they identified as Agnostic, and according to Integroup (and many discussions) didn't conform to AA in general. Now, they recently got relisted. So there is a certain level of opinion on this here. I attended one of those newly listed group meetings and found it strange that they didn't have the steps posted anywhere, were not read in the preamble and all but two folks (one being me) didn't mention a HP in their shares. There wasn't even a BB around. So is it AA?
Frankly, the whole sky-is-falling routine happens often, from what I have read, and yet, time and time again, the program proves to be solid. It's a spiritual program. Tells me in the book. It's not hiding that fact. I don't worry about AA as a whole. The only spirituality I need to focus on is my own. And show others how I found that. I point them to the book. I point them to how I worked the steps, like it was shown to me, and so on.
Is there a crisis? I don't know. On this side of the sunny street, though, things seem pretty groovy. And I can thank my HP and AA on that one
You must understand that there was a little bit of a kerfuffle a few years ago up here when Intergroup delisted two AA groups because they identified as Agnostic, and according to Integroup (and many discussions) didn't conform to AA in general. Now, they recently got relisted. So there is a certain level of opinion on this here. I attended one of those newly listed group meetings and found it strange that they didn't have the steps posted anywhere, were not read in the preamble and all but two folks (one being me) didn't mention a HP in their shares. There wasn't even a BB around. So is it AA?
Frankly, the whole sky-is-falling routine happens often, from what I have read, and yet, time and time again, the program proves to be solid. It's a spiritual program. Tells me in the book. It's not hiding that fact. I don't worry about AA as a whole. The only spirituality I need to focus on is my own. And show others how I found that. I point them to the book. I point them to how I worked the steps, like it was shown to me, and so on.
Is there a crisis? I don't know. On this side of the sunny street, though, things seem pretty groovy. And I can thank my HP and AA on that one
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 891
What is funny is how "God" always comes up as the topic of debate. I don't see a problem here as "God" is quite simply everything, everywhere, all the time, everyone. Here and now.
If the AA had been founded by a Muslim or Buddhist would we say that the organization is essentially Islamic or Oriental (both of these faiths discourage drinking, I've been asked if I don't drink for religious reasons) ? I consider myself a spiritual seeker and like the character Pi have explored the different main stream faiths and I can honestly say that at a basic level each of these faiths teach the same spiritual principles of love, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, faith and an ultimate truth that transcends time and space. Essentially I see the 12 steps as a practical applied spiritual program that can be used by anyone regardless of their belief system or lack of. There are many books that tie the steps to Zen, Buddhism, Christianity, Advaita and maybe even Islam, New Thought as well as secular thought. How one defines "God" is their personal opinion. I've given up trying to imagine a vision of God or label myself anything but an alcoholic. How can I possibly achieve a sense of what God may look like? The closest I can come to it is to gaze at the ocean of stars in the Milky Way or imagine the entire cosmos and know it is filled with "god stuff", to look at a flower in bloom or hear kids laughter, to remember the first time I saw a baby born or a person die. The mystery and magnificence of all that "is" is enough. No person can know all that is. Even Einstein held a "spiritual" view of the law, order and wonder of the cosmos.
All I know now is that I believe in something bigger than myself. That's enough to help me see there's a point to all this and hold my faith despite the doubts of others.
If the AA had been founded by a Muslim or Buddhist would we say that the organization is essentially Islamic or Oriental (both of these faiths discourage drinking, I've been asked if I don't drink for religious reasons) ? I consider myself a spiritual seeker and like the character Pi have explored the different main stream faiths and I can honestly say that at a basic level each of these faiths teach the same spiritual principles of love, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, faith and an ultimate truth that transcends time and space. Essentially I see the 12 steps as a practical applied spiritual program that can be used by anyone regardless of their belief system or lack of. There are many books that tie the steps to Zen, Buddhism, Christianity, Advaita and maybe even Islam, New Thought as well as secular thought. How one defines "God" is their personal opinion. I've given up trying to imagine a vision of God or label myself anything but an alcoholic. How can I possibly achieve a sense of what God may look like? The closest I can come to it is to gaze at the ocean of stars in the Milky Way or imagine the entire cosmos and know it is filled with "god stuff", to look at a flower in bloom or hear kids laughter, to remember the first time I saw a baby born or a person die. The mystery and magnificence of all that "is" is enough. No person can know all that is. Even Einstein held a "spiritual" view of the law, order and wonder of the cosmos.
All I know now is that I believe in something bigger than myself. That's enough to help me see there's a point to all this and hold my faith despite the doubts of others.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 891
Originally Posted by UncleMeat69 
As I read the title of the referenced article, what seemed more appropriate, IMO, would be to title it "America Struggles with its Spiritual Roots." There are many changes going on today with attitudes towards religion, spirituality etc. AA has , however, weathered many challenges over the past 7 decades and still remains as a powerful program of recovery for many millions of sick, desperate alcoholics. I have always believed that even though times change, people remain pretty much the same and that is why I believe AA will be around for many more decades to come. If something else works that is fine. I'm just glad I found what works for me, and I hope you find what works for you.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by paul99
I know Roger C. in the article posted in the OP. He's actually quite a knowledgeable man and has a thirst for AA history and the 12 steps in general (I'll be talking to him this week actually...I won't mention this thread...ha ha).
here's a review of the book,
The Little Book: A Collection of Alternative 12 Steps (Book Review) | A 40-Something Fool's Journey
excerpt,
Informative and intelligently written, The Little Book is clear, concise, and simple to understand. This is not an angry treatise on the failings of 12-Step programs but a book of gentle and helpful guidance. It’s like a sit-down with a great sponsor or program mentor in print, an opportunity to get more educated about the program and about personal recovery. It doesn’t hold one’s hand through writing one’s own step interpretations; instead, it encourages an individual to meditate on one’s personal connection to spirit of the 12 Steps of Recovery.
Overall, I think this book is a need-to-have recovery library addition for atheists, agnostics, and theists who don’t connect with the core program-as-written. This book supports the 12-Step program using the words of program founders accepted as conference-approved literature while also supporting the individual 12-Step recovery journey for people like me.
Overall, I think this book is a need-to-have recovery library addition for atheists, agnostics, and theists who don’t connect with the core program-as-written. This book supports the 12-Step program using the words of program founders accepted as conference-approved literature while also supporting the individual 12-Step recovery journey for people like me.
Last edited by Dee74; 03-24-2014 at 11:29 PM. Reason: commercial link removed
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