mental illness and 12 steps
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 19
mental illness and 12 steps
What is your opinion on the efficacy of AA/12 Steps in treating mental illness, specifically bipolar disorder?
I find it very difficult to determine whether problems like self-pity, irritability, depression is caused by "dry drunk" or bipolar.
I find it very difficult to determine whether problems like self-pity, irritability, depression is caused by "dry drunk" or bipolar.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I know a handful of "diagnosed" bipolars who, when they got wholly sober (which means a whole lot more than just not drinking), found all those symptoms were gone.
Untreated alcoholISM looks a lot like bipolar, depression, manic depression, ADHD, and many other illnesses.
--and before anyone freaks out, I'm NOT saying they don't exist......just that they're often misdiagnosed prematurely in alcoholics.
Untreated alcoholISM looks a lot like bipolar, depression, manic depression, ADHD, and many other illnesses.
--and before anyone freaks out, I'm NOT saying they don't exist......just that they're often misdiagnosed prematurely in alcoholics.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
AA .... How it works
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought that we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find him now.
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we were willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.
Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
How it works - Chapter 5, page 58-60 of the Book, Alcoholics Anonymous © Alcoholics Anonymous
The underlined was/is my experience ...
All the best.
Bob R
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought that we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find him now.
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we were willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.
Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
How it works - Chapter 5, page 58-60 of the Book, Alcoholics Anonymous © Alcoholics Anonymous
The underlined was/is my experience ...
All the best.
Bob R
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,284
My experience has been that my mental health issues actually increased with continued sobriety. I use AA just to stop drinking. I believe I am gravely ill and need medication in order to stay sober with AA's help.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
AA is not a “treatment” for any mental health diagnosis. It is a way of dealing with alcoholism. Sometimes mental health problems get better while a person is in AA and sometimes they get worse. In another thread you said that you have been in AA for 13 years. What’s been your observation?
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
My experience has been that the Steps of AA can benefit mental disorders related to alcoholism which can mimic bipolar disorder and depression. That said, AA is not a cure all for mental health illnesses, it is a treatment for alcoholism and the authors of the Big Book knew that I use AA to stay sober and my mental health provider to treat my mental health illnesses. Please do not make the mistake I did by listening to those that state AA is a cure all for mental illness it nearly put me in a mental ward and took the life of a good friend. You are no less sober if you reach out to mental health providers to treat mental health illnesses. Many people with mental health illnesses go to dual diagnosis meetings as the people in them are more open to understanding that AA is not a cure all for mental illnesses it is a program of sobriety.
Now about health: A body badly burned by alcohol does not often recover overnight, nor do twisted thinking and depression vanish in a twinkling. We are convinced that a spiritual mode of living is a most powerful health restorative. We, who have recovered from serious drinking, are miracles of mental health. But we have see remarkable transformations in our bodies. Hardly one of our crowd now shows any mark of dissipation.
But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good psychiatrist or doctor. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and following his case afterward. (The Big Book, The Family Afterward, page 133)
But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good psychiatrist or doctor. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and following his case afterward. (The Big Book, The Family Afterward, page 133)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 19
My experience has been that AA is helpful if it is not too Big Book thumping; when I go to meetings where people are very fundamental about AA I start to feel out of place.
Yeah, I drank too much, got drunk did weird stuff.
BUt I've also gone manic (when NOT drinking) for months on end and experienced psychosis, etc. And I've been SERIOUSLY depressed more than once.
I wish I could write it all up to alcohol but I know I'd be lying.
Way harder for me to accept mental illness than alcohol problem. Hard to admit that what I think and feel is sometimes wrong/sick/ill/crazy.
USed to think Step 2 referred to mental illness and just lately realized it's just referring to the insanity of the first drink...
Yeah, I drank too much, got drunk did weird stuff.
BUt I've also gone manic (when NOT drinking) for months on end and experienced psychosis, etc. And I've been SERIOUSLY depressed more than once.
I wish I could write it all up to alcohol but I know I'd be lying.
Way harder for me to accept mental illness than alcohol problem. Hard to admit that what I think and feel is sometimes wrong/sick/ill/crazy.
USed to think Step 2 referred to mental illness and just lately realized it's just referring to the insanity of the first drink...
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by antinomies 
My experience has been that AA is helpful if it is not too Big Book thumping; when I go to meetings where people are very fundamental about AA I start to feel out of place.
Yeah, I drank too much, got drunk did weird stuff.
BUt I've also gone manic (when NOT drinking) for months on end and experienced psychosis, etc. And I've been SERIOUSLY depressed more than once.
I wish I could write it all up to alcohol but I know I'd be lying.
Way harder for me to accept mental illness than alcohol problem. Hard to admit that what I think and feel is sometimes wrong/sick/ill/crazy.
USed to think Step 2 referred to mental illness and just lately realized it's just referring to the insanity of the first drink...
Yeah, I drank too much, got drunk did weird stuff.
BUt I've also gone manic (when NOT drinking) for months on end and experienced psychosis, etc. And I've been SERIOUSLY depressed more than once.
I wish I could write it all up to alcohol but I know I'd be lying.
Way harder for me to accept mental illness than alcohol problem. Hard to admit that what I think and feel is sometimes wrong/sick/ill/crazy.
USed to think Step 2 referred to mental illness and just lately realized it's just referring to the insanity of the first drink...
What does your sponsor and the oldtimers say about Step 2 ? ....
All the best.
Bob R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: FL
Posts: 698
I know a few things:
1. Alcoholism never improves mental illness.
2. Alcohol usage is contraindicated if taking neurological drugs.
3. The American Medical Association recommends AA for treatment of alcoholism.
Therefore, it would stand to reason that AA could only be of benefit to those suffering from alcoholism and a diagnosis of mental illness.
In my personal experience, living the principle of this program, not just going to meetings, I have been able to stop taking my depression medication. Many of my AA friends, myself included, have received diagnosis is of clinical depression, adult ADHD, and bipolar disorder, And were never diagnosed with alcoholism by the healthcare provider. I was never asked extensive questions about my alcohol use, prior to being prescribed psychoactive drugs. I know of no one, in my personal experience, who's mental health has been harmed by AA.
1. Alcoholism never improves mental illness.
2. Alcohol usage is contraindicated if taking neurological drugs.
3. The American Medical Association recommends AA for treatment of alcoholism.
Therefore, it would stand to reason that AA could only be of benefit to those suffering from alcoholism and a diagnosis of mental illness.
In my personal experience, living the principle of this program, not just going to meetings, I have been able to stop taking my depression medication. Many of my AA friends, myself included, have received diagnosis is of clinical depression, adult ADHD, and bipolar disorder, And were never diagnosed with alcoholism by the healthcare provider. I was never asked extensive questions about my alcohol use, prior to being prescribed psychoactive drugs. I know of no one, in my personal experience, who's mental health has been harmed by AA.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder at 19, and soon after, I received diagnoses of depression and PTSD.
I was textbook BPD: extreme impulsiveness, fear of abandonment, fear of failure/success, out of proportion reactions to any kind of disappointment. The more chaotic my life around me was, the more meaningful I considered it. I was the queen of "make something happen." Any therapist or psychiatrist will tell you BPD is difficult to treat, and those suffering from it are probably facing a lifetime of treatment.
Today, I have no symptoms. I have the occasional BPD thought, and I recognize it as such, but the emotions and responses are those of a normal person (kind of like, what, are you nuts? & I laugh...). My belief is that BPD -- or, at least, my BPD -- was caused by maladjusted ego. The steps took care of that.
My depression was rooted in events of the past. Learning forgiveness, for others and myself, eased the depression. I will still feel melancholy, but it doesn't last. I don't quit my job and go to bed. I still shower. I feed myself.
The PTSD is the most persistent. I have come to a place, though, where I can pray myself through the symptoms. I have done enough self-examination that I've shared with God and others that I can see when I'm having irrational fears.
So, while I would never suggest to someone who is prescribed psychiatric medication that it is unnecessary in sobriety, I have not found it necessary to continue with meds. I have seen a therapist at different points of my recovery, and I'm in a job now that requires I check in with the clinical supervisor once a month.
The most important thing, IMO, was that I remained open-minded, I had a sponsor who was open-minded, and I didn't will my way out of mental health treatment. Over time, it became apparent that I didn't need it.
I'm only speaking for myself. While I wasn't promised the steps would do anything more for me than introduce me to the God of my understanding who would keep me sober, I found sobriety in my mental health, too.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
I was textbook BPD: extreme impulsiveness, fear of abandonment, fear of failure/success, out of proportion reactions to any kind of disappointment. The more chaotic my life around me was, the more meaningful I considered it. I was the queen of "make something happen." Any therapist or psychiatrist will tell you BPD is difficult to treat, and those suffering from it are probably facing a lifetime of treatment.
Today, I have no symptoms. I have the occasional BPD thought, and I recognize it as such, but the emotions and responses are those of a normal person (kind of like, what, are you nuts? & I laugh...). My belief is that BPD -- or, at least, my BPD -- was caused by maladjusted ego. The steps took care of that.
My depression was rooted in events of the past. Learning forgiveness, for others and myself, eased the depression. I will still feel melancholy, but it doesn't last. I don't quit my job and go to bed. I still shower. I feed myself.
The PTSD is the most persistent. I have come to a place, though, where I can pray myself through the symptoms. I have done enough self-examination that I've shared with God and others that I can see when I'm having irrational fears.
So, while I would never suggest to someone who is prescribed psychiatric medication that it is unnecessary in sobriety, I have not found it necessary to continue with meds. I have seen a therapist at different points of my recovery, and I'm in a job now that requires I check in with the clinical supervisor once a month.
The most important thing, IMO, was that I remained open-minded, I had a sponsor who was open-minded, and I didn't will my way out of mental health treatment. Over time, it became apparent that I didn't need it.
I'm only speaking for myself. While I wasn't promised the steps would do anything more for me than introduce me to the God of my understanding who would keep me sober, I found sobriety in my mental health, too.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
removing the alcohol removed what was masking the mental issues. then I was able to get help for the mental illnesses.
still got em.
the program ( and medication) are what helps me not let em control me today.
still got em.
the program ( and medication) are what helps me not let em control me today.
SR Fan
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,910
I think it's hard to treat alcoholism without addressing mental health issues, and vice versa... and it really can become a jumbled mess, where you don't know which is which, so I can empathize.
My feeling is that it's best to get a professional evaluation if there's any question at all. As wonderful as AA is, one shouldn't assume that working the program harder is always the answer. There are so many resources out there - it's a shame not to take advantage of them.
I was reading the other day that 1 out of every 4 individuals has some form of mental illness and only 1/3 of those seek out any kind of treatment. I'm a little passionate about this because it runs in my family and I've seen the suffering untreated mental illness can cause. We have to get rid of the shame and look at it like having any other kind of condition, like diabetes or heart disease... something we can live with, with the right treatment.
My feeling is that it's best to get a professional evaluation if there's any question at all. As wonderful as AA is, one shouldn't assume that working the program harder is always the answer. There are so many resources out there - it's a shame not to take advantage of them.
I was reading the other day that 1 out of every 4 individuals has some form of mental illness and only 1/3 of those seek out any kind of treatment. I'm a little passionate about this because it runs in my family and I've seen the suffering untreated mental illness can cause. We have to get rid of the shame and look at it like having any other kind of condition, like diabetes or heart disease... something we can live with, with the right treatment.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 70
My Experience
It is my experience that depression particularly is caused by an acute obsession with self that draws me in to myself so deep that i shut down emotionally I once tried anti depressants but came off them very shortly after In my experience Anti Depressants stop working after some time. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but its not about whats right and wrong , its about who's left !
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 70
Excellent
Originally Posted by Kathleen41
I know a few things:
1. Alcoholism never improves mental illness.
2. Alcohol usage is contraindicated if taking neurological drugs.
3. The American Medical Association recommends AA for treatment of alcoholism.
Therefore, it would stand to reason that AA could only be of benefit to those suffering from alcoholism and a diagnosis of mental illness.
In my personal experience, living the principle of this program, not just going to meetings, I have been able to stop taking my depression medication. Many of my AA friends, myself included, have received diagnosis is of clinical depression, adult ADHD, and bipolar disorder, And were never diagnosed with alcoholism by the healthcare provider. I was never asked extensive questions about my alcohol use, prior to being prescribed psychoactive drugs. I know of no one, in my personal experience, who's mental health has been harmed by AA.
1. Alcoholism never improves mental illness.
2. Alcohol usage is contraindicated if taking neurological drugs.
3. The American Medical Association recommends AA for treatment of alcoholism.
Therefore, it would stand to reason that AA could only be of benefit to those suffering from alcoholism and a diagnosis of mental illness.
In my personal experience, living the principle of this program, not just going to meetings, I have been able to stop taking my depression medication. Many of my AA friends, myself included, have received diagnosis is of clinical depression, adult ADHD, and bipolar disorder, And were never diagnosed with alcoholism by the healthcare provider. I was never asked extensive questions about my alcohol use, prior to being prescribed psychoactive drugs. I know of no one, in my personal experience, who's mental health has been harmed by AA.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
The principles in the 12 steps are helping me live a more orderly life which makes dealing with my mental illness less complicated. I address life issues differently than I did before (on good days). But my mental illness has not vanished...any more than my addiction has. I now MANAGE these things better, more realistically, less self destructively.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by Db1105
The 12 Steps of AA treat alcoholism. Period.
I found, as time went along, that it is a myriad of symptoms, quirks, anomalies and defects that can be addressed by the 12 Steps .. when I committed to the 12 Steps the need for medication greatly diminished.
I came to the point where I stopped saying "God can't do that" and began bringing my needs to Him in my prayers.
I realize that God will remove from me the things that I am willing to let go of.
That is my experience.
All the best.
Bob R
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 70
Correct
Originally Posted by 2granddaughters
You're right Db, and alcoholism is a lot more than quitting drinking.
I found, as time went along, that it is a myriad of symptoms, quirks, anomalies and defects that can be addressed by the 12 Steps .. when I committed to the 12 Steps the need for medication greatly diminished.
I came to the point where I stopped saying "God can't do that" and began bringing my needs to Him in my prayers.
I realize that God will remove from me the things that I am willing to let go of.
That is my experience.
All the best.
Bob R
I found, as time went along, that it is a myriad of symptoms, quirks, anomalies and defects that can be addressed by the 12 Steps .. when I committed to the 12 Steps the need for medication greatly diminished.
I came to the point where I stopped saying "God can't do that" and began bringing my needs to Him in my prayers.
I realize that God will remove from me the things that I am willing to let go of.
That is my experience.
All the best.
Bob R
Alcoholism isn't found in Bottles and Bags.... Its found in People .....
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by tomsteve
removing the alcohol removed what was masking the mental issues. then I was able to get help for the mental illnesses.
still got em.
the program ( and medication) are what helps me not let em control me today.
still got em.
the program ( and medication) are what helps me not let em control me today.
AA is there as a program of recovery from alcoholism. Like it says in the Big Book you need help with a legal problem go to a lawyer therefore you need help with an ongoing mental health issue you go to the health department or a private concern. AA does not presume to be a cure all program although individual members may have had major successes treating mental health issues like yours without ongoing medication etc, some will need both and that's ok too.
AA will help you to remove the symptom so the causes will be clear to see and then it is up to you.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 19
the problem though (as you may or may not be aware) is that there is A LOT of symptom overlap between bipolar and what alcoholics commonly call "dry drunk" or "untreated alcoholism". It is a matter of discernment that is beyond me and probably beyond a sponsor too--am I restless because I am mentally ill or because I am spiritually unfit? Am I irritable because I am bipolar or because I am alcoholic? Am I unhapphy and discontented because I am massively depressed or because I am not working the steps?
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