miamifella

My sample is small but the point was that it was a sample. I was responding to FrothyJay who was suggesting that one should extrapolate from one's beliefs without any sample at all.

He suggested that it was reasonable to assume that people who stop attending 12-step groups most likely do so because they are drinking--based on his beliefs about alcoholism, not on any actual observation. People might stop attending 12-step groups for any number of reasons and that it is not reasonable to assume that most do so because they are drinking just because that fits in with what you already think.

Eddiebuckle

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program...

This has been my experience in the rooms. Self delusion and an a la carte approach to the steps being the two primary variants that lead to relapse in the cases that I have personally known.



BB quote-1st. Edition

newby1961

In the BB Chapter 3 More About Alcoholism I believe answers some of this question

"Most of us have been unwilling to admitt we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow,someday he will controll his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker."

Then it goes on to say how we have to fully concede to our inner self that we were alcoholics. This is the 1st step in recovery.

I think this summs up a lot of why some people don't stick around. I know I went in and out of AA for 10+ years a lot because of these statements. I want to add though that I will have 7 years on the 13th.

So I wonder if they take into account people who have left but eventually came back and got it?

IMHO just for me I have to be careful about numbers & stats this is a spiritual program and I believe God has a hand in who gets sober and stays there.

I can't get anyone sober just as I can't make anyone drink unless of course I strap them to a chair and pour it down their throat and that's very unlikely lol

I love the slogan keep it simple

PS to add to what miamifella my mom died with 28 years and only went to AA her 1st 3 years or so.

BB quote-1st. Edition

ian_g

Agreed...I've seen some people get sober, go through the steps and then get involved with their church and stayed sober. Others still keeping the spiritual principles of the program and then throwing themselves into helping their community. But passing this thing on is likely easiest in the rooms as I'm sure anyone would agree.

JohnBarleycorn

This is because both "Primary Purpose" and "Back to Basics" groups put forward an approach to the AA program which is much closer to the original Oxford Group method.

This can be seen in the "fast track" approach of getting newcomers to work through steps in their first weeks of recovery, and perhaps even more so in the "Eleventh Step Guidance" meetings practiced by the "Back to Basics" groups.

CarolD

Long before either of the Back to basics or Primary Purpose groups
came about.....AA members were finding their solution via the BB.

I have never met a single AA member who used either group
and I know many recovered alcoholics....

Yesterdays noon meeting...OD.......16 out of 20 had between
1 year and 39 years. ..... as recovered alcoholics.
The Topic? final paragraph on page 43....

Tommyh

Jay and Zube,first,those old "low" recovery rates are not accurate.It is B.S.
Second,in the early days,many people was screened before they was allowed into AA.Society, today, sends people to AA for many different things other than sobriety.
When society sends their problems to us,problems other than drinking,we can expect those problem people to leave after a while.Like Carol said,no one keeps a roll,and no one keeps a head count.
my success rate is 100 % because I really tried,like the big book said.Back when i wasn`r really trying,my success rate was 0 %.I was one of those who left.


this Chris R fella is known as a AA Radical,not well respected or liked by many in AA,myself included.Why not listen to all sides before making conclusions?

cabledude

Good question Zube.

Fact is no matter how many used to get sober in the good old days or how few get sober now, there's only one I have any reason to worry too much about.

I'd better keep doing what I can do about him.

Music

So, what are the perameters for being successful in AA??

JeremiahS

Getting thru incredibly tough stuff with humility I had never been capable of summoning, finding myself growing up instead of running, and maybe occasionally wishing myself dead but never drunk. I guess like normal people live. Thats how I personally measure it anyway.

laurie6781

Love and hugs,

keithj

I think this is exactly the reason. The fellowship grew geometrically in the early years. At best today, it's linear growth, flat, or slightly declining. That speaks to the message not getting carried with the same effectiveness.

A spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps propels one into the action of carrying the message. It's unavoidable. How can you tell if somebody really has this thing? Watch their actions. They have a hunger and a passion to share it. They 'give of themselves, so that others may live'. Meetings aren't about them or showing up so everyone sees them. It's about carrying the message.

When that message is passed on, and the newcomer has that experience, they gone on to sponsor people. A lot of people. And those people in turn sponsor others and that geometric growth is realized. When this 'come to meetings and don't drink' message is passed on, some stay sober and some do not, but there is no growth. It's flat and that's what we see today.

The Gresham's Law article covers this really well. Most meetings offer a third option to the 'go on to the bitter end...or accept spiritual help.' They offer 'hang out with us and don't drink' as a valid recovery option. That is the dominant message in a lot of meetings.

That was my experience exactly. Turned my recovery upside down. In fact, it turned it from continued relapse into lasting, peaceful and contented sobriety.

Here's the harder question we should maybe take a look at as a Fellowship. Why is a standard, run-of-the mill AA message out of the BB so shocking to hear at an AA meeting?

keithj

bballdad, you know I respect and value your opinion. Do you consider Joe and Charlie radical and not well respected? They have the exact same message, minus Chris R.'s personality. Same sponsorship line and same message.

FrothyJay

He's not responsible for the quote I listed.

And how do you know the statistics are B.S.?

I'm glad it works for you. I'm more concerned about the 20 people like you who go to a meeting and never come back because the message is non-existant.

FrothyJay

Fair question, and I see your point. In the early days, they were talking about people who were sober as they wrote the book (so no one could have had more than 5 years or so).

The statistics I have seen, which seem to be so easily disregarded here as fluff, say that the 3-5% number is for people who have attended an AA meeting and stayed sober for a year. That's basically what the General Service Office quote I listed above states.

My point is this: take the statistics directionally, with all the caveats you want. Does that make the number 50%? Absolutely not. Not even close. I'm not a statistician, but I think on a good day you could extrapolate up to 10% from 3-5% based on assumptions.

We're whistling past the grave yard.

FrothyJay

He's generally only considered a radical by people who don't like his style. There's an unspoken tradition in AA that anyone who rocks the boat is dangerous.

Tommyh

I have the same respect for you Keith
Joe and Charlie wasn`t all AA either Keith...as my sponsor says,that`s why they was called Joe and Charlie and not AA or really recognized by AA.Anytime someone brings up falsehoods to back up "their" message,I do tend to get somewhat skeptical of what message they really are carrying and motives.

Actually,we are wasting time discussing this over and over when it really may not be a big deal....the bigger deal is the suffering alcoholic who may not know we can help him/her get sober ..... we may all be better off sharing with each other the effectiveness and how we 12 step others,of carrying the message out into the world and how to be of service in meetings or sharing our ESH with steps 10,11 and 12 with newer people.Might be a good topic

Tommyh

I do not consider him dangerous just a example of extreme and inflexible thinking we alkies tend to have..I wish him the best- I just don`t listen to him..and when I was in and out,the message was there,I just closed my mind to it

susanlauren

KeithJ: "Here's the harder question we should maybe take a look at as a Fellowship. Why is a standard, run-of-the mill AA message out of the BB so shocking to hear at an AA meeting?"

I don't know Keith. Could it be because many meeting that claim to be AA meetings are AA meetings in name only and not in content and message? Could it be that the AA message has become so diluted that it is on the verge of being lost? Could it be that relatively few AA members actually know what the AA message is?

We can't remedy that which we do not acknowledge as a problem. And if there is no problem, there is no need for a solution.


KeithJ: "Most meetings offer a third option to the 'go on to the bitter end...or accept spiritual help.' They offer 'hang out with us and don't drink' as a valid recovery option. That is the dominant message in a lot of meetings."

I like option #3. What a deal: friends, fellowship, activities and events, conferences, all with minimal work or effort, just show up. No need for self-searching, no need for any confession of shortcomings, no need to make amends, no need to take a daily inventory, no need to pray and meditate, no need to help anyone else. Sign me up.

There is just one little problem. Option #3 doesn't work for me. Susan

susanlauren

bballdad: "we may all be better off sharing with each other the effectiveness and how we 12 step others, of carrying the message out into the world and how to be of service in meetings or sharing our ESH with steps 10, 11 and 12 with newer people. Might be a good topic."

Actually, that sounds like a great topic. How, exactly, do you do these things? Susan