I haven't used it for that purpose myself, but I do know from the RR forums that others have. There is a book called Brain over Binge: Why I Was Bulimic, Why Conventional Therapy Didn't Work, and How I Recovered for Good by Kathryn Hansen. She was apparently able to use AVRT for her eating disorder, and describes this in the book.

I read this book and I really liked it. The author gives a lot of credit to Rational Recovery and the book for her beating her bulimia. What really stuck with me was that the current way of thinking requires a lot of work and therapy to stop. You need to get to the very bottom of all your problems before you can stop your behavior (whether it be drinking or binging). Kathryn Hansen realized that all of that other stuff is just an excuse to get you to do what your beast really wants you to do.

I am also currently reading another book that highlights the beast/I separation and explains it quite well. It's called "You Are Not Your Brain " by Jeffery Schwarz. He calls the beast your brain and your true self your mind. He also referrs to the true self as "the Wise Advocate" that has a long term values based approach to it's actions. The brain, on the other hand, reacts to its environment in exactly the opposite way.... It reacts habitually and automatically. So the title, "You Are Not Your Brain" says it all. He then goes on to discuss How stopping and recognizing when the brain is talking to you vs. the mind is the first step in beating any automatic habit.

It's really interesting for me to see the basic premise of AVRT in other books. I don't think I would have really recognized it before, but it is out there. This is becoming something I'm pretty fascinated with. I just like knowing that it is supported by people other than the Trimpeys and it's becoming more known.

I've read the first few chapters of RR. Very good stuff. I guess I had done this on my own but didn't have a name for it. I was expecting Trimpey to be harsher than he was b/c of posts I've read but I think he's just being honest about his perceptions of AA.
I was shocked to read he was raised in a Methodist church.
I am a Christian & even w/ that I had a hard time swallowing some of the " steps".
I know we're not allowed to discuss AA but just want to say I agree w/ his thinking.
I, myself, prayed, did the first 3 steps over & over, asked God to take my addiction away, to no avail. I believe God gives us free will to choose to help ourselves. He's not a magic genie. You have to be responsible for your own actions.
Sorry to offend anyone w/ God talk. Just my experience.
Looking forward to reading the rest of RR.

I'm Back
 

Hello everyone

Comforting/encouraging to see TU and Soberlicious and others I recognise on here

Background
I was here in January, did the crash course, read all the threads and read through the book once. Was sober for two weeks and drank again.

This all may sound sac religious (I know this isnt a religious technique but you get my gist - RE AVRT doesnt allow for relapses) but it is my honest experience and I truly want to be an abstinent person so I've decided to swallow my pride and come back on here because the sobriety I had using AVRT was more peaceful than I've ever experienced in AA etc.

What Happened

Basically - I did make a big plan but probably never entirely believed it (ie listened to my AV) then at the end of my second week had this overwhelming beast attack to drink,, was at the hairdressers and they had all these party shots of people drinking and having fun - imagery to drink.

Came back here after that but didnt stay long and didnt fully read the book again.

Drank, spoke with people in the fellowship who strongly urged me to go back to meetings and 'work' the program again etc that my 'relapses' proved how powerless I really am and a hopeless alcoholic.

Getting Sober Again

The problem is I've been going to meetings every since (Jan) and have even started working with a new sponsor and I just keep drinking. Everytime i'm in meetings you hear a different version of how to get sober, there's no powerful message or strategy like with AVRT and they're all just one drink away from being drunk. It's like now i've experienced AVRT I cant go back and I see how they're all just totally enslaved to their addictive voices.

The final straw for me was when my new sponsor kept trying to convince me that I had been sexually abused in my childhood and that is what is stopping me from getting sober because i need to remember and release the anger from it. I can see that the Beast LOVES all this damaged history crap and loves reasons to keep drinking. Whereas the 'I' the 'real me' actually cringed when she said this and was like GET A GRIP WOMAN you know that you drink because you are addicted to the effect it gives you. That's it.

Stopping for Good

So here I am ,, back again

I wish I had committed entirely to my big plan because now while I see that AVRT is the way to go because when I observe others around me who have stopped drinking permanently without the use of AA or recovery groups I can see they adopted a disconnect technique in order to do it. Drinking is just a 'non issue' for them now. As Jack Trimpey points out, this method of recovery is what people have been doing to rid themselves of addiction for hundreds of years. HOWEVER, because I screwed up it's like I'm fearing that the 'magic' and simplicity of this program is no longer available to me - this is pure AV though isnt it?

Am also working my way through Jack's book again and nearly finished reading all of thread 4.

TU your input would be much appreciated. Do you know of people who didnt get it to begin with but then got it and it stuck? for ever?

welcome back Peta :)

I have no experience with AVRT per se but I'm one of those who didn't 'get it' for many years...but finally got it :)

D

Sounds like the AV to me, Peta. I'm not an expert in AVRT—I'd describe my approach as AVRTesque, though I only realized that later on, after reading what TU and some of the other folks here posted. Hopefully they will be along soon, and can probably offer much better insights than I can. But for now you're stuck with me!

Somehow early on I intuitively realized I needed to separate myself from the desire to drink. The single most important thing for me was when I not only accepted that I could never drink again, but embraced it. So yes, I can see how a failure to commit entirely could be the reason for drinking. For me, at least, that made all the difference in the world. Simple, yes, but no magic at all. Quite the contrary. And I can't see any reason why it's not still available to you, or anyone else for that matter. :)

Glad you're back!

Thanks very much Dee and ReadyandAble

Good to know you're out there and I'm amongst people like myself while i'm sitting at home in new zealand in my lounge with my husband and mother who are both drinking (i'm having a soft drink)

I feel strangely unlike a drink - I dont want to drink but there is the sense of another presence within me (the beast) who is kind of pulsating and suggesting "it's Easter have some more today and then you can quit on the 20th.. You always wanted the 20th of the 4th as your sober date"

I've yet to make a Big Plan - I need to finish reading the Rational Recovery book again

PETA,

Do finish reading the book, it's so worth it. to me, it was such a relief to learn about the Addictive Voice and Beast. I think I had to be really good and ready to quit. Once I could honestly admit I wanted to drink because of the pure pleasure, not because I was stressed or whatever crazy excuse The Voice offered, it got much easier. Once I became aware of the negotiation that was continually going on, I was able to put an end to the "craving."

Today, I don't drink. It's not an option, it's a non negotiable item. If other people are drinking, it has nothing to do with me. It's not my business.

I hope you find RR and AVRT as helpful as I did. I never felt at peace in AA, it just didn't fit me. It's a good program, there's a lot to be learned from it. But RR works for me.

Love,

Lenina

Thanks Lenina

I'm reading the book now:)

I haven't finished the book yet, I haven't finished reading all the suggested things the TU suggested, but I'm well on my way. However I'm having trouble "getting it". I don't understand how just realizing that my addictive voice is suggesting I drink will keep me from drinking or if it does how it will keep me from white-knuckling it. A couple of days ago I drank again after a couple or more weeks without. I did spend hours fighting with my "lizzard brain" wagging my fingers in front of my nose, then waiting for the beast to try...
Can someone help me "get it"?

Do read the materials, since I can't possibly cover everything that is in the book, and I don't want to have to re-hash things already covered. That said, what you are essentially asking is how AVRT 'works', which is something others might be wondering, so I'll see if I can answer. Just realizing that your AV is suggesting that you drink will not keep you from drinking, nor will it keep you from 'white-knuckling'.

Indeed, many addicted people have debates in their head over whether they should or should not drink in any given situation, doing a cost-benefit analysis every time they see a beer. In all probability, you will be 'white knuckling' as long as you leave the option to drink on the table, unless the desire to drink happens to magically go away, which is most unlikely. It is worth noting that AVRT is not about removing desire, or decreasing it, which is what addiction treatment is supposed to do.

This is where the Big Plan comes in. The Big Plan may appear to be just another 'swearing off' exercise, but it is actually more than that, because it forces a breakdown of the addictive mentality, a separation that is necessary to end the struggle. I'm sure you've heard of the 'hitting bottom' idea, where, assuming you don't die first, you have a moment of clarity and realize that you've had enough. What actually happens is that as the losses mount, so does ambivalence about using, and the addictive voice begins to break down.

The person beings to realize that what the AV is saying may not be their true thinking, that it may not be 'them', as it appears to be. People may spend decades in this purgatory, going back and forth over whether or not to keep listening to the AV, and they will either die from the addiction, or the AV breaks down completely. By 'break down', I mean that the person finally realizes that the AV is not them. What the Big Plan does is force this breakdown, known as the I/It split in AVRT.

The structural model is useful in that it helps make sense of what is going on by pointing out that your body (limbic system) is talking to you in your mind's eye, but this understanding in and of itself may not do the trick. In actual practice, it is the I/It split, where addictive desire is not I, but IT, along with the understanding that "I" don't drink, that will do the trick. As long as you believe there will be a 'battle' between two parts of your brain, there will be.

You mentioned 'fighting' with the Beast for hours with that finger wagging exercise, but that exercise is merely to prove to you that desire cannot move your hands, and should only take five minutes. Put a beer in front of you, tell the Beast that if it can move your fingers, you'll get good and loaded. The Beast won't be able to do this, which proves that you are in full control, and that IT is powerless. No Big Plan means no I/It split, no AVRT, and lots of 'white knuckling'. So, you need the BP to force this split.

Once this I/It split occurs, the Addictive Voice will be forced to address you in the second person ("you need a drink") or the first person plural ("we need a drink"). At this point, its cover is blown, since obviously it isn't you talking, or you would thing "I need a drink," and recognition becomes almost effortless. The AV may still try the old "I" game every so often, but AVRT provides a mechanism for dealing with that called Addiction Diction.

From this point on, all you need to do is recognize the AV and objectify it as 'not you', and it will fall silent. At first, this detachment will take some conscious thought, but eventually it becomes automatic, like driving a car. You don't even have to think about where the accelerator, break, turn signal, gear shifter, or gear positions are.

Your job henceforth is to stand guard and (passively!) wait for any thinking, imagery, or feeling, that supports, or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or other drugs, ever. With a BP in place, this becomes quite literally effortless, since 'you' no longer drink or use. It's like watching for a red ball coming down a conveyor belt of ping pong balls.

The first time around, I thought this AVRT stuff sounded nice, and I knew I had to knock it off to get out of the deep hole I was in. I still had this lingering idea that a year would probably suffice, though, and I could re-evaluate then. That little tiny hole in my BP was my undoing. I lasted a little over thirty days, talking back to the AV, doing a cost-benefit analysis every time I got an urge, thinking through the drink, etc. Not very pleasant. In contrast, now I just recognize the AV as 'not me', don't talk back to it, and it falls silent.

So, my advice for you is to read the book, read through these threads, and then read through the book again a second time. This is because your Beast intuitively understands that never drinking again is very bad (for IT), and your AV will actively prevent you from seeing some things the first time around. Then, do one single cost-benefit analysis and decide if you want to keep living like this or not. If you don't, then make a Big Plan for unconditional, lifetime abstinence.

If you are doing it right, with no loopholes, you'll feel your Beast struggle, and your AV will probably start firing back with both barrels.

Thank you again for your explanations. I do plan on reading and rereading the book many times. I did need the clarifications you've just provided. I will make a big plan, but I do want to finish reading and understand completely what this is about.
I have already gone through promising myself that I won't ever drink again. I've never been able to do AA, so I've always been on my own for stopping. I've always believed that I was a sort of Dr Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde, and I always knew that I would eventually win the battle, preferably before hitting rock bottom. I also thought that I always honored my promises, so I promised myself I would never drink again. That one didn't work and it sort of shook my foundations, I don't believe myself anymore. If I think on the lines of AVRT, it was Mrs Hyde doing was Mrs Hyde needs to do? Where was Dr Jekyll? Dr Jekyll was convinced she was Mrs Hyde...

I 'm going to need to do a lot of reading and rereading to really grasp this, it seems like second nature to you. But without a doubt, this is THE way to stop. I finally have a program that follows my way of thinking.

Welcome back, Peta. I was wondering what happened to you.

As a matter of fact, I do -- me. The first time around, I lasted about a month or so, but then I went back and learned things properly. Also, 70% of the people who take the AVRT course remain abstinent, which means that 30% do not. That said, I would advise against comparing yourself to others, since your Beast will naturally lock onto the 'failures', and argue that you are one of them. It is often best to think of yourself as the first person in history to ever quit their addiction, which puts things in perspective. The only statistic that matters here is your own.

There is a tendency for people to argue about what 'works' and what doesn't, to look at recovery statistics, or to argue about who 'worked it' hard enough or not. I could, for example, conclude from my experience with AVRT that since I was doing things half-heartedly the first time around, that anyone else who doesn't remain abstinent is also doing the same, but that would be disingenuous. The attitude of AVRT could probably be summed up as follows: nothing works except actually quitting, but anyone can quit.

The underlying premises of AA and AVRT are pulling in opposite directions. The first step of AA requires admitting that you are powerless over alcohol, which, if you read the Big Book, really means the desire for alcohol (ie, the Beast). AVRT assumes that powerlessness over desire is actually an illusion, and that the Beast is powerless to act on its own, which is why it needs the AV to entice you to do its bidding. On some level, the logic of AVRT and of AA is actually similar, but with different interpretations, which might help clarify the disconnect.

AA:AVRT:
You'll probably find that this cognitive dissonance will only grow. Some may disagree with me, but I would argue that it is more effective to choose one or the other, either AA or AVRT, than trying to mix and match. As previously stated, the underlying axioms are literally pulling in opposite directions.

Your Addictive Voice will readily incorporate additional justifications for drinking into its bag of tricks, fortifying itself along the way. Considering that the Beast is a survival drive, this makes sense. It saves time and effort having to come up with justifications when it can have them provided by others.

Yes, your Beast is going to pull up your drinking as 'proof' that you are incompetent to quit, utterly dooooomed. :)
This, of course, is not the case at all, but it certainly keeps people trapped in addiction. Read the AVRT materials again, Peta, and stick around until you feel comfortable with it. Feel free to post any questions.

Careful, though, because your addictive voice is already attacking, setting up a scenario whereby you can put this off forever until you understand everything.

The AV will necessarily inject doubt and undermine your confidence, so to get around that, with AVRT, we set our confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%, and recognize all self-doubt as the AV itself.

Precisely. There you go, you're getting it.

AVRT builds upon itself as you use it. At first, there is a bit of a learning curve, and it takes some thought and effort, but it quickly builds momentum. By all means, read the materials, and this thread, but don't assume that you have to wait until you understand everything to get started. I can help clarify some things, but most of the learning will happen after you take the plunge, by observing your own thoughts.

These posts are awesome just awesome - nice that you remember me TU :)

I'm all ready feeling the ACE - I am keeping a journal and cutting and pasting all the posts I've found really helpuful

I also wrote on Easter Sunday (TU you'll remember that has significance for me:)

I WILL NEVER DRINK AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND. In this journal

Sobriety dates were always a big thing for me in the past and I always loved the idea of the 20th - I see now this is totally AV because if it wasnt the 20th when I gave up then i'd use that as an excuse to drink again. And if I did stop on the 20th - then the 20th of an even month would be a more attractive quit date. Total insanity I can see now.

This time I'm not even writing a 'date' as such because I realise that the Beast doesnt exist in time.

No matter what the time/date is it will always want to drink and then try and make me believe that it's not the right time to quit.

The reality though is the drink always happens in the now and so to does never being a drinker again.

So now I'm just a NON drinker - i'm not going to count days weeks or months. Although I'll remember that I made my Final Big Plan around Easter. Which is also timeless for me because of my faith in that Jesus/God are outside of the time dimension (I believe). Are and always have been.

The AV Will Try False Logic
 

This is clearly the AV, as TU has pointed out. it isn't even logical. I think it is impossible for a temporarily abstaining adult to not know whether they really made a Big Plan. As to "don't believe myself", I don't know how to tell myself a lie without knowing it's a lie. I don't know how to not believe myself?

I think, in a more generic vein, by going over what thoughts occurred during the following process (divided up into twelve steps) we can relate clearly how we had not made a Big Plan in the first place if we consummate step 12?

1 - We recognized the strong desire to get that same deep pleasure from drinking alcohol.

2 - We had somewhat forgotten the pains resulting from past drinking, which is biologically normal.

3 - We decided to stop what we were doing in order to go and obtain an alcoholic beverage.

4 - We planned the situation to see how to keep the negative consequences to a minimum.

5 - We made sure it was in a drinkable container.

6 - We decided to lift up the container.

7 - We watched it closely as it came within inches of our eyes and nose.

8 - We made sure it properly made contact with our lips without dribbling or spilling.

9 - We opened our mouths and tipped the container to let the diluted ethanol flow into our mouths.

10 - We tasted the diluted ethanol as it entered our mouths.

11 - We had a nervous sensation throughout our bodies caused by the tingling in the mouth.

12 - We swallowed the diluted alcohol anticipating the absolutely wonderful pleasure it would give as evidenced by the even stronger tingling sensation throughout our bodies caused by the swallowing.

This is NOT the anatomy of a relapse, slip, or anything that happened TO us. It is the anatomy of our willfully taking a drink.

What WERE the thoughts that were happening alongside these steps?
How could someone with a Big Plan do them all?
Of course they couldn't.

Someone with a Big Plan can intentionally go through the first seven steps to expose their Beast as a mushy quadriplegic about the size of a few raw oysters, and then dump the booze or store it for doing it again later, or for others to drink.

Someone here on SR about a month ago said they went through 11 of the above steps as way to expose the weakness of their Beast. Then they spit out the booze. Personally, I would not recommend that (unless you are a professional wine taster? I dunno?)

It is so absolutely possible to dominate whether the very unique willful event of swallowing ethanol ever happens again. It does not sneak up and mug you; it's not a germ you can't see, or a creature that bites you when you sleep.

Also, it silenced my Beast more when I decided it was morally WRONG for me to EVER drink alcohol again.

AV subtleties
 

It is important to realize that the addictive voice is more than just a little voice that says "Drink! Now!", and that it is actually an entire persona. This was originally posted in one of the main forums, but the OP gave me permission to re-post here as an example of subtle forms of addictive voice.

The parts in bold and underlined are what I saw as the addictive voice embedded in the text when I read it. I'll explain...


"I could never drink again."

This statement is the AV itself, because it implies that if you could drink again, that you would do so. Problem is, you certainly can drink again, and you have proven this time and again. The question is not whether you can drink again or not, but rather, whether you will drink again or not.


"...there are times when I miss that [feeling]. But toward the end, I could never get that feeling back..."

Two things stand out here. The first is some that since addictive desire is not you, but the Beast, you don't miss that feeling -- your Beast does. See these posts for reference:

• AVRT Law of Attribution :
  
  
• AV Chatter/Separation :

The second is a classic Beast set-up, because it makes abstinence contingent on not being able to get that nice feeling anymore. All pre-conditions for abstinence are automatically conditions for drinking, and the AV is creating an opening which it will inevitably exploit later by suggesting that it might feel good. The OP is recognizing this tactic to some extent. See this post for reference:

• It doesn't feel good anymore :

"Thankfully, the voice gets fainter every day."

Believing that AV silence is a good thing is, in fact, AV. While it is true that the AV generally gets fainter over time, this is also a classic Beast set-up. It implies that if the AV did not get fainter, that one might not be able to abstain. The AV may still 'peak' from time to time, even years later, so in AVRT, the presence or absence of AV is neither good nor bad. See these posts for reference:

• I've had no desire :
  
  
• That desire is back :

Sneaky, huh? :)

Peta, I was very slow on the uptake. Actually I didn't really get it even after reading the book once. It was on this forum I read that white knuckling = debating with the Beast. That was a critical breakthrough for me and mastered the technique soon after.

Let me tell you, if I can do it, you can too. The reason you won't find anyone saying “take your time” is procrastination is typical of your Beast.

Do read the RR book at least twice though—and do all the exercises.

Thanks Kanamit - and everyone else who has replied.

I'm feeling great.

Had a dream last night I was in an AA meeting and everyone was sharing and I had this inwardly sickly uneasy, excited feeling (in the dream) that OK so I'm an alcoholic which means I may relapse at some stage UNLESS I work a good program blah blah blah

Woke up realising that this was the problem for me with AA- the uncertainty which ultimately feeds the Beast and my AV and excitable ideas about future drinking.

All I know is I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. I dont care what 'It' wants.

There is an incredible freedom and peace in this. Like last night my husband wanted to drink wine - I had been drinking up until a few days ago so he assumed I would also partake (poor guy he's seen me drinking then calling myself an alcoholic and running back to meetings and asking him to 'support' me and not have it around me then me drinking again - YIKES). I simply said Im not drinking no thanks. And there was no urge and no AV actually - which I know is neither here nor there because even if there had been I would have identified it for what it was and simply repeated my Big Plan.

A subtle Beast attack I noticed this morning though. Since becoming abstinent I'm finally embarking on my new health regime which I've wanted to do for months but being back in AA I was like - slowly slowly dont do too many things at once. Focus on your recovery first and then you can deal with that blah blah blah.

Anyway - I'm fully into my new program and feeling fantastic, alcohol free and heaps of energy from how I'm eating etc.. Then a voice in the shower that said "you are totally obsessed with this eating thing huh?. what happens when it wears off? do you think you're just replacing the drinking obsession with the new regime??

I identified straight away it was my AV. And I said I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. Even if I wasnt doing this I woudnt be drinking because I never drink.

And then it piped down