Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 4
 

This is part four of an ongoing thread for discussion on the method of Rational Recovery®, called Addictive Voice Recognition Technique®, or AVRT®, which is described in detail in the following book:


The previous parts of this thread are available here:

• RR #1 :
  
  
• RR #2 :
  
  
• RR #3 :

If you have not done so already, you may want to read the following posts:

1. Introduction —
   
   
2. Difference between SMART Recovery & Rational Recovery —
   
   
3. A note on "The Small Book" —
   
   
4. Regarding Religion —

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NOTE:

Think I'll jump in here. I am following the AVRT method. I thought it was a little weird at first, but if you look past the "beast" and "voice" analogies it becomes a battle within you- the part that longs for the drink versus the part that knows the bad outcomes.

Who will win? Has to be the "good guy" not the "drink". If I let the drink win I lose and lose big. DUIs, early painful death, trouble at home/work. And for what? A hell of a buzz followed by an absolute miserable existence. hangovers, embarassing actions, etc etc etc. Its just not worth the risk of losing everything (especially 10 years off my life on average).

The "good guy" has to win the arguement. Every single time.

Just my two cents.

I hear you, Darren. I understand and have empathy for your statements. I'm just learning AVRT myself too. I don't think we want to have that argument with the beast though. The AV likes to argue I'm learning. Just stomping the beast down is enough to shut that crap down sans argument I am learning.

Good to see you here, Darren. :)

Welcome. Have you gone through the crash course and read the book, Darren? If not, you will want to do so, as they will get you up to speed. You'll also want to read through this thread from the beginning, since we've already covered several nuances.

A couple of things:

The Beast is not an analogy. It is as real as addictive desire itself, for that is what it is. AVRT just names it. The Addictive Voice (AV) is the expression of that desire, in your thoughts and feelings, also very real. You should read this post:

• Common Misundarstandings

Regarding a 'battle' or an 'argument', while this is a common first reaction, with AVRT, we don't generally argue or debate with the AV. There are a couple notable exceptions to this, where we can intentionally prod the Beast to make it show us its hand, but 'white knuckling' is not the name of the game here. We simply recognize and detach.

Thanks to you both for helping me with AVRT. It is a lot to learn for an ol 42 year old (former) drunk :). I will take a look at the past threads and do some studying.

I have just ordered the book. The more I read, the more I want to read. I found last night when getting off work instead of stopping and buying alcohol, I stopped and grabbed a dasani and hurried home to read.
It is like a light bulb was just switched on in my brain.

I have alot to read and alot to learn, but I do want to ask about my AV. ..It seems to be beyond sneaky. The last time it told me to enjoy a glass of wine, I honestly seemed to be in line for the purchase before I knew what was happening to me.

I know it may sound crazy, but it was almost like I was driven there without my knowledge. Suddenly, I was sitting at home with alcohol and a smile on my face..only to have it wiped off and miserable the next day asking myself how the heck this happened.

Is it a point of me not recognizing my AV? Now that I know about it, I am hoping for Red Flags smacking me in the face when it tries this again.

You are becoming aware of what is driving and maintaining your addiction. AVRT does not speak of 'spiritual awakenings', but this is indeed an 'awakening' of sorts. Kind of like flipping on the lights in a dark room, or coming to the surface after living in an underground cave — suddenly you can see. :)

The Addictive Voice is essentially a separate persona unto itself, which has only one purpose — to get that next fix. The problem is that until exposed, it appears to be you, and you'll go on autopilot as if what the AV wants is what you want. This will become more clear once you read the book, but the 'Big Plan' of AVRT forces a separation between the AV and your true self. This is called the I/It split, and will put you in the driver's seat.

I am really happy to see this thread expand to a part 4. Like many other people have expressed, it helps to be reminded of the principles, daily at first. I learn a lot from people's failures and successes. This thread from beginning to end never seems like a rehash of old info. It just seems to build and is a great reinforcement. Thank you TU for being so instrumental in keeping it going.

Hi,

I want to join you, is it possible? I'm not here for drug or alcohol addiction, but for eating disorders. First of all, I want to apology for my english I am french.

I'm a girl, 23 years old... And I have read a book called "Brain over binge", written by an old bulimic who recovered with the AVRT's method. And I am conviced it is the only way for me to recover too.

I am anorexic and bulimic (I make myself throw up after binges). "It" says to me I shouldn't eat, or "it" says to me I should binge. It's hard because it's like I have to fight against my animal brain all the time, but I have decided to never listen to it again. Never.

I have read all the thread but sometimes it was hard for me to understand everything because my english is not really perfect, so I think it would be easier for me to join the thread and ask questions if I need... :)

Yes, welcome. :)

I just read some reviews of "Brain Over Binge" and some excerpts. I have no personal experience with eating disorders, but in reading some of what Kathryn Hansen writes, it is obvious she did use AVRT. Are you going to read the Rational Recovery book next, Dominorose?

My beast gave me a bit of a run for my money just now and I feel rather liberated having smoked out another bout of its desiring.

Yet again it changed tack- with its previous penchant for stimulants it today tried to change strategy by saying- 'you only felt bad because you were taking stimulants which are empty and meaningless; what we should have are some mind expanding drugs such as psychedelics to let give you a satisfying drug experience'.

This one did entice me for a few minutes as I began giving it some serious contemplation for a little questioning if the big plan was a rational choice given that I could be 'losing out on expanding my consciousness'. Very sneaky mr. beast.

It took only a few minutes to recompose myself and after the desire had passed I felt an increase in confidence like I had just won another small battle. As you said TU it def does feel like building a muscle.

I find it similar to how when I was losing weight quite a few years ago it felt really bad denying myself food at first but after a cpl of weeks I got a decidedly good feeling from it- prob the equivalent of the ACE.

Pages 141-143 in the book ("The Echo Effect") address this question of yours. The Addictive Voice will tell you that you are lying to yourself, but you can't actually lie to yourself. Lying requires at least two people — the person telling the lie, and the person hearing the lie.

You can only successfully tell a lie if the person hearing it doesn't already know the truth. You, however, being the one saying it, know the truth already, so how can you lie to yourself? You may be able to lie to others about this, but you already know if you actually intend to quit or not.

Keep reading, and bear in mind that your Beast is reading over your shoulder as well, looking for loopholes. You're not even on chapter two and your Beast already senses danger and is attacking your confidence and your ability to tell the truth.

Perhaps your Beast knows something you don't that is making it scared so soon? What could it possibly be, though? Could it be that AVRT is really bad news for your Beast? :)

Yes she used it :)
And yes, I think I will read it. It is not always the same as alcohol, because I HAVE to eat to stay alive, so I can't be "totally abstinent" or something like that...

What I want to know exactly is how I have to react when I feel the urges to binge or restrict? Do I have to tell the Beast ''no I don't want too", or something else? Because Kathryn Hansen wrote she just had to ignore it...

I tried to ignore it, but it is like ignoring the pink elephant next to me. Just impossible...

Interesting! I hadn't thought of it that way. I shall continue to read, The Beast be damned....

Soberlicious posted this in another thread, and she is actually spot on. One of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice is to conceal its existence. Wicked, huh? :)

• Functions of the Addictive Voice :

I'm not expecting any formal legal advice here—and don't wish to steer this thread off-topic—but since AVRT is a registered trademark, what are you able to do in terms of using the term AVRT in forum posts, blogs, books, etc?

Although it's going to take me a long time, I would really like to write an article/some instructions on using AVRT for food addiction. Would I be allowed to reference it as AVRT and publish it online? Obviously, I would credit Jack Trimpey/RR for coining the term and would not pass it off as my own.

And, yes, it is much more complicated to apply this to food. AVRT is simple if you want to use it to not do something. But it becomes trickier when it is to do something. Even something like exercising, for example. I might make a Big Plan to exercise three times per week. There are mitigating circumstances (if you're ill for example) where you can't exercise. In such cases how would you determine if you are ill enough so that it is you legitimately deciding you shouldn't exercise, or your lazy beast?

Food addiction is far more complicated as your ideal diet can change over time and based on the amount of physical activity you have taken part in that day. There are loads of other factors too.

Even though I do not have an eating disorder I would be interested in reading this book. Thanks, Dominorose.

I too don't want to stray off topic, but thanks Dominorose for bringing up the eating book. I had an eating disorder when I was younger and was very interested to see how AVRT related to eating issues and how that may relate to alcohol. I wound up getting the book on kindle. Its very interesting so far and I can relate to the author's struggles with eating. Right now I am trying to learn all I can about AVRT since I have had some struggles this weekend.

I'm sorry but no, you didn't. Your Beast did though. :)

This matrix is critical:

http://rational.org/html_crash_cours...vrt_matrix.gif

Copyright

Using the above diagram you can turn the tables in an instant. I'm struggling becomes it's struggling.

Once you have made a Big Plan all anxiety, nervousness, etc about drinking/using again are your Beast's, not yours. There is no relapse anxiety. Ever.

I can empathise with you as I too felt that way but once you understand the AVRT Matrix, it becomes truly effortless.

Too late to edit the above post, but I wanted to add that I am at the part of the book where the author realizes that going to a therapist for years trying to resolve the underlying reasons for over eating did not help her at all with binging. She also realized that when she stopped binging for a few months with the help of medication, she still had all of the same emotional issues, but none the less was able to stop. She knew stopping her behavior had nothing to do with her issues. She could simply stop binging and deal with everything else separately, for better or worse.

It reiterated Jack Trimpey's same point to me about how you stop drinking first and things might just get better because you stopped drinking. If they don't, you work on that separately. The AV searches for every reason to have a drink. If you resolve one emotional issue, something else will come up that the AV will use for an excuse to get drunk.

My understanding is that AVRT is registered in order to prevent it from being incorporated into an addiction treatment program or being offered as a professional service, which would alter its meaning as a method of self-recovery. If you are thinking of using it in a book, I would suggest contacting Rational Recovery directly to get permission to do so.

I haven't read this myself, so I can't really comment on it, but RR does have that "Taming the Feast Beast" book. I do know it was written before RR:TNC, however, so I expect that the presentation of AVRT is not quite as comprehensive in that book. Might be a good complement, though.

That is a useful quote, thanks.

For when I finally get round to it, I was just going to post it online for free, to anyone that wants it.

Given how quickly Jack Trimpey responded to me when I emailed him, I guess I'm best off going straight to the horse's mouth.

I have just downloaded this to my phone and will let you know once I've read it.

RE: A note on "harm reduction"
 

There was a link posted on another thread to a website peddling an 'adapted' perversion of AVRT that intentionally allows for planned drunks.

Word to the wise: THIS IS NOT AVRT.

Addiction recovery, as defined by AVRT, is planned, permanent abstinence. The Addictive Voice, as defined by AVRT is "any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or drugs -- ever."

Harm reduction assumes that you will keep drinking and getting high, actively and purposefully. By their own definition and mission statement, "HAMS is all about empowering people to use alcohol or drugs in a safe and sane manner." If that isn't pristine Addictive Voice, I don't know what is. Those harm reductionists on that web site are making things up as they go along so that they can keep getting high.

RE: "It doesn't feel good anymore"
 

I posted this in response to a question about whether or not you would go back to drinking if there weren't any health consequences, but I think it deserves mention on here. Many people stop drinking and then continually tell themselves that they don't drink because "it doesn't feel good anymore."

It is subtle, but this sentiment is AV, since it implies that if it did feel good, that you would go ahead and drink. It may 'not feel good' now, but it sure did at some point, and your Beast isn't likely to ever forget that. Furthermore, if you make your abstinence contingent on drinking 'not feeling good', all your Beast has to do is convince you that it would feel good, and it has plenty of time to do this.

You have to close this Beast hole. I had to quit drinking in spite of it feeling good, because, while it no longer felt very good by the time I quit, here's how my head talk would sound:

I: Boy, drinking sure doesn't feel very good these days. I think I'll stop drinking.
AV: You need a drink.

I: Drinking doesn't feel good anymore, it won't be worth it.

AV: Well, that was back then when you swore off. You've been sober for 'X' days now, though. Surely it will fell good now that you've gotten healthy again.

I: Hmm... It has a point.

(GLUG GLUG GLUG)

If you make your abstinence contingent on anything other than abstinence, there are holes. All contingencies are AV.

Im not sure if this is against the posting policy- if so - just delete, I wont be offended. But, I decided upon reading the first threads that Im going this route- still going to another popular program of recovery for the support and to hear stories etc.
At todays gathering the reading was such that 3 people confessed to not believing in a higher power- I was flabbergasted- they were pretty advanced in recovery (actually It was only two- I was the third) again- if this is out of protocol just delete- I don't want to mess with anyones efforts.

Bob36,

It is not uncommon for people first learning AVRT to still go to meetings. You should be aware, though, that viewed through the lens of AVRT, much of the lingo (ie, the slogans) will be identified as Addictive Voice ("any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or drugs -- ever").

For example:

Slogan: "Meeting Makers Make It"

AV: If you don't make a meeting, you might drink!

Slogan: "Don't get too hungry, angry, lonely, or tired (HALT)"

AV: If you get hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, you might drink!

etc., etc.

Are you sure you're not an 'AVRT person', soberlicious? ;)