Funny, how AV works. I have not heard much from him. Then I quit smoking & boy did he get mad! Tried throwing all kinds of ideas at me.
I was shocked at how dormant he was & then Bam.
I will not let him win. I Just laugh at him.

Today is the day. I haven't of course finished reading all the suggested material. I will continue to put aside 15 to 30 minutes everyday for that. I got past the chapter about the Big Plan. Quite honestly I think I expected more insight from that chapter than I got, but I'm not going to drink anymore regardless. I have the rest of my life to read and reread. I've understood the basics. I won't ever drink again. My addictive voice is anything that suggests I do otherwise. I have no need to argue with my addictive voice because I'm in control and I don't drink, ever.

Will you ever change your mind? Make sure that's not your AV jumping in and changing the words of the Big Plan around to soften it up, which is common. Technically, "won't ever" means the same thing as "will never," but this nevertheless stood out for me for some reason.

Quite the turnaround from your previous posts, though, californiapoppy. Good for you! No need to delay. There is some good material in the chapters ahead on the addicto-depressive condition, the felt presence, aggressive listening, and shifting. Shifting is possibly as important as the I/It separation, so spend some time on that. The AVRT Matrix is useful for the shifting exercises, so you may want to print that out. I glued a copy of it at the end of the chapter on the Big Plan, at the bottom of page 147, which has enough space for it.

AVRT Matrix —

Pay attention to the recoil from your Big Plan, and to your thoughts and feelings in the days ahead. Your AV may reorganize itself as a result of what you've read, since some of the usual tricks won't work anymore, and it may try some "new" tactics. The Beast has no choice but to do this, so just be aware of that. Otherwise, set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%, and recognize all self-doubt as the addictive voice itself.

The Big Plan chapter is quite light, weighing in at less than twenty pages. Lapses, Relapses and Other Nonsense is almost twice as long and contains some of the best information in the book in my opinion (not that any of part II is not useful). If you've only just read about making a Big Plan then you still have this to come.

No I won't ever change my mind. It may be my accented English you're hearing through my typing, though I assure you my English is as fluent or more so than my French, and for me technically as well as literally, "won't ever" means "will never".

I'm not sure it's really a turnaround from my previous posts, what I was looking for was to understand something I had never encountered as a program. It is however completely in line with my thinking now, and when I first started with SR. But until I found the Secular Section I had BIG problems with SR. I was told I was "terminally unique." So I landed in Secular, termed myself a "non-drinker" and managed on and off the wagon, for a few years, always coming back to SR when I was disgusted with myself. So this time I found something I can live with. I won't need a spiritual awakening, or a higher power, or even a Big Plan (which is something I really like in Trimpey's book, there are no obligations except to quit). I do have a Big Plan however, since it isn't an obligation.

I have never been depressive, I've never had "problems" I didn't think I could handle, nothing made me drink, nothing pushed me to it, no underlying worries or illnesses, no abuse, nothing. I drank for pleasure or for fun, and I started drinking for the same reason or perhaps because I thought it was glamorous, I watched too many movies with good-looking men and women who always floated across rooms with a cocktail in their hands. Whatever it was, it's no longer fun, I find no pleasure in drinking and the next day is always agonizing.

I will be very careful since I'm already not really sure what you mean by "shifting", "agressive listening" and "felt presence" I've probably read it already but I was skimming through the book as fast as I could to get to the part about the Big Plan so I could have one then stop procrastinating. I'll be reading more thoroughly now and I'll be skipping all the parts about "unlearning AA" which I never learned anyway. They seemed to detract from the major points anyway.

I thank all the Secular Connections for their posts concerning AVRT, I'm still slowly getting through Part 1 but it's a great help for me.

AVRT appears to be radical, but it is only counter-cultural against the backdrop of the contemporary addiction recovery ecosystem that sprung up in the last 50 years or so, and especially since rivers of free federal cash allowed the addiction treatment industry to literally explode in the 1980's. People have been recovering along the lines of AVRT for thousands of years, however, and many still do so today. AVRT is not new, and even if Jack Trimpey hadn't put it down in writing, some people would still be figuring it out on their own here and there.

Hi everyone

I won a big case - which will be the biggest in my career - and my husband was delighted for me and wanted to 'celebrate' - he was like 'lets get wine' etc etc I told him he could but I'm not drinking.

He did get it (despite acknowledging he wants to have several alcohol free days per week of which Wednesday was meant to be one - but whether he drinks or not is neither here nor there for my decision to be abstinant)

I did notice though feelings of annoyance and judgement cropping up from the Beast via my AV.

Why cant he just not drink for one night! etc etc - I recognised this for what it was because even though it didnt develop into "why can't YOU/WE just drink for one night" thats where it would of gone if I'd paid too much attention to it

My AV was keen on a "if you can't beat em join em" type of argument but because I didnt buy into IT's argument, it dissipated. So other than some mild annoyance with my husband there was no burning desire to drink.

And even if there had been I know it would have been IT and not ME:)

I find it amazing as I continue reading RR, how much my AV was there but I did not recognize it as such.
I had the "Never say never" debate.
The I had a bad childhood/depression excuse, etc.
When in reality, I drank b/c IT wanted to get trashed.
By the end I truly thought I had split personalities. I wanted to stop so bad & yet drink too. I would argue for hours on end, writhing in emotional turmoil until I finally gave in to It.
Now, it is fabulous to not have to argue. I can now say I will NEVER drink again & nothing will change my mind.
My problems are still there, I can work on them if I choose or not. It is irrelevant. My life is simply better b/c I don't drink anymore.
I realize now when I first quit drinking, I had not read RR. My AV was telling me I HAD to work on "issues" or I wouldn't be happy. So I got into trying the "steps" to work out problems. This only caused me distress & kept the AV working on wearing me down in other ways than blatantly saying "drink". Very sneaky the beast is indeed.
If you have not read RR the book. I encourage you to. It is helping me "see" things I overlooked.

Once the Beast is born, the addictive mandate — drink! use! — becomes a prime directive, the organizing principle in your life. The Addictive Voice will then start to re-organize your thoughts around the addictive mandate. People literally make life-altering choices on account of it, such as what field of work to go into, where to live, who to marry, etc.

The closest parallel would probably be falling in love. There is an initial rush, followed by a re-organization of priorities around the new love. People will make life-altering decisions about where to live, where to work, who to associate with, etc, on account of being in love. Of course, this is normal, whereas addiction is perverse, but it appears to use a similar mechanism.

Once you begin to question whether or not you should drink, and to think about possibly quitting, the Beast has a problem. Eventually, just saying "drink!" won't be enough, because at that point, you might recognize it too easily as not-quite-you. One of the prime functions of the addictive voice is to conceal the existence of the Beast, and it has to appear to be you in order to manipulate you. It's new priority becomes "don't say never now" — putting off quitting.

A favorite siege tactic is to get you thinking that you are congenitally defective, sick, and riddled with defects. If you believe this, you'll probably think that you need some sort of medicine or cure, and the AV will direct you towards every conceivable avenue of irrelevancy, as long as it doesn't involve actually quitting. When those avenues inevitably fail, and you wonder what might work, it will then suggest a drink as the appropriate medicine.

You have problems, not issues.
 

I've posted before about how the Beast loves 'issues', since 'issues' don't necessarily have solutions, but PurpleCatLover's last post prompted me to Google issues vs problems. I found the following article posted on a blog dedicated to language and grammar, which is right on the money. The words you use affect how you see things, and how you see things strongly affect your ability to respond and to act. For a better chance at finding a solution to a problem, start by calling it what it is.

Morning everyone

having some 'problems' this morning with page 133 of the book

I've already read it once and am going through again and have made a decision i will never drink again and i will never change my mind

On reading this part though it talks about how the big plan is irreversible, final, permanent etc

Those of there on here who know about my experience with AVRT will know I drank after making my first big plan - so now while AVRT is working for me I feel like a bit of a fraud with the big plan thing because I'm saying to myself IT's IRREVERSIBLE, FINAL, PERMANENT

but the beast knows that's not the case.. or is trying to tell me thats not the case because I drank last time??

Perhaps i need to speed up my reading and get to the Lapses, Relapses and other Nonsense;)

Your AV will try to use all the previous failed attempts as "proof" that you are incompetent to stay sober. It will tell you that you are lying to yourself, which isn't possible, since it takes two people to lie. In order for a lie to work, the person hearing the lie needs to not already know the truth, but you already know what you intend to do. There is no need to build a defense, since you are the ultimate authority.

This is because the Beast can't do anything on its own, any more than your liver can. It can't go to the liquor store, order a drink, count the money, pay for it, and pour it down your throat. It has to convince you to do that, and if you aren't going to do that anymore, then that's just too bad for Mrs. Beast. Poor thing.

It might help to bring in the moral axis to this drinking thing in order to really pop the screws to the Beast. In other words, is it right or wrong for you to drink? If it is wrong, just how wrong is it? A little bit wrong, like fibbing, or very wrong, like stealing? I can't answer that for you, but if you can see that drinking is always wrong, the AV becomes an immoral proposition, easily recognized.

Remember also that AVRT is a NOW approach, so even though the AV will try to argue that "you can say that now, but I'll get you then," when then actually arrives, it will still be now. "I will never drink again" is equivalent to "I will never drink in the present moment." See this post on static time:

• Knowing, not just hoping, that you are recovered :

See also "Listen for the Echo" on Page 141-143 and "Mr. Beast, Esq." on page 172.

A little thing that works for me, I used it to quit snuff and I'm using it now to quit drinking is whenever I feel the urge and a lot of times when I don't I say to myself.

No thank you. I don't drink.

It is sort of like a gun fighter practicing his quick draw techniques. It is a statement of fact and by repeating it it becomes a reflex.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee. I don't have to say it, it says itself.

Back up there, m1k3. What do you mean by using it now to quit drinking? You haven't quit drinking yet? It might be a slip of the tongue (or the AV), but that sounds like the old "working on the problem" and hoping for the best mentality. ;)

How about I have quit drinking based on my big plan and continue to learn more about avrt and how to deal with the addictive voice when it does happen to show it's face.

I will never drink and I will never change my mind. That is not an issue. Confusing verb tenses when trying to deal with past ( I quit drinking just like I quit snuff), the present ( I continue to learn how to use AVRT) and the future( for when it may be needed when dealing with the beast).

This is like one of those Star Trek episodes where the plot is not in chronological order. :)

So far, to be honest, I found the nicotine harder to quit, but I was a much heavier user of snuff than I was of alcohol.

Ever since GerandTwine pointed out how the AV plays with verb tenses, I decided to incorporate that awareness into my own thinking. It took some conscious effort at first, but now, it sticks out like a sore thumb in posts. Yet another nail in the Beast's coffin. :)

I am about to criticize the above paragraph because it is an intellectual exercise in pursuit of discovering what is true (and not an angry outlashing or anything like that. Please understand, I'll say it again in another way: Criticism of a religious belief or argument is not angry outlashing. It is just criticism. Deal with it.

The first statement made is that the disease going on in the brain is actually a demon or the devil, which happens to satisfy the scientific explanation in a scientific way. This is a fallacy known as begging the question. You are assuming what you are trying to prove. The next statement is that we can cure these diseases by religious means. We can "name" the demon or use Jesus' power to remove them. However, we seem to always use the scientists' medications in order to help Jesus remove the demons. Doesn't that contradict the previous statement about the demon simply satisfying the scientists' expectations?

I can see that. I'm a martial artist and one of the things we train for is called muscle memory. It's when you practice a technique to the point there is no thought involved, it just happens. I did the same thing when I quit snuff (correct verb tense here). I said to myself over and over, no thank you I don't dip. It got to the point whenever the AV tried to even start to fuss about snuff "no thank you I don't dip" fired off pretty much on its own. It worked very well for me then. I am doing the same thing now that I have quit drinking except it's " no thank you I don't drink". It is a reflex, no thought required. It says to the beast over and over again, you fool, no thank you I DON'T drink. No room for argument or whining or anything else. A simple statement of fact. No thank you, I don't drink. Its been 15 years now with the snuff and I will never dip again.

It would appear you are begging the question by referring to alcohol addiction as a disease.
Either we read two different posts, or I'm just plain lost. I didn't take away the same ideas from TU's post as you did...

I'm not sure what you are talking about. No, that's a lie. I don't have any clue what you are talking about. What does Jesus power have to do with anything?

::confused::