fini, I totally get it.

To "reveal oneself" in any fashion puts the person in the position of being validated by the group, or not.

One-on-one, not so much, for then a discussion has just been opened.

Sociologic researchers have studied this concept for years. "Group-speak" is definitely different than direct person-to-person interaction.

Placed in a group, MOST people behave differently than they would as individual actors. A sense of anonymity is created, the larger the group, the greater the sense of anonymity. Simply not speaking conveys agreement with the group mentality. Mimicking the group mentality strengthens solidarity.

It is actually quite BRAVE to speak out in any group, particularly when said validation is not likely to be forthcoming.

The whole thing.

I think my atheism gave me more freedom when the right brain started to kick in. I had no "knowing" so I had no preconception of what spirituality should be. Claiming a particular belief system then making what you see fit it comes across to me as confining. Religion seems like a distractor in a multiple choice test to me. It was whatever you want it to be Cow. I like your freak flag. Let it fly!!! If you haven't check out Darkmatters on youtube.

EERRRMERGEERD!!! My mom was raised Catholic but that wasn't hard core enough for her.

I wrote the below in Feb 2013. It fits in here enough too on how it affects my sobriety.

>>>"I was agnostic when I quit. Years later, for different reasons beyond addiction recovery, I became Christian in my faith. My sobriety though has had nothing to do with any outside deity. My AA HP of my own understanding is entirely an inside job. I make good use of the AA Way and AVRT skills, and Gestalt therapy, friends and fellowship, taking what I need, and leaving whatever. I quit to quit dying from my alcoholism, not to become a new slave to new taskmasters, has always been my approach. I'm more a poster child for choosing the eclectic journey out of the self-created prisons of my trashed addicted past life. I've never looked for the perfect way out. I just took the first real exit my then drunken self could manage while I burnt my former life down to ashes by quitting. Its surprising what clarity of vision one attains when one truly accepts an alcoholic death is in every hand of cards dealt to them while drinking. Quit or die drunk. Not much room left for mental gymnastics. Game over.

The essential action to take is to quit drinking without ceremony or drama. From there, honesty with ownership and responsibility to one's self is the best policy. Honesty practised first with yourself, and thereafter with others. Responsibility to staying quit, and ownership for the issues which are created from quitting alcohol abuse. I paid all my attention to the present moment as best I could when first quitting. To hell with my past for the time being. As to my future, I had no future worth living without sobriety in the present moments of my new life. A time and a season for everything in its own time comes to mind. All paths will lead you to success when you walk with the truth of your own convictions and responsibilities. There is no perfect choice which can be made and still enjoy your humanity, imo. Forget about it."<<<

For me, spiritual awareness is a hunger felt, or its not. Some want that hunger satisfied, some don't, and some don't have it to even feel. It really doesn't matter. If there is a supernatural God, then there is, and if not, then so be it. My experiences in life have taught me to keep an open mind on human spirituality expectations and judgments. I'm not religious, and I have nothing to prove with my spiritual experiences, which I own as my own. I don't believe death is the final end for all of us. I do believe it is for some of us, though. In any case, I believe death is whatever we make it out to be for ourselves, same as is life, you know? Not everybody wants to live forever.... no problem. Me, I'm not ready to embrace death as the final curtain, and that's on me. This understanding is what creates my empowerment for my spiritual awareness. Death offers me no opportunity for satisfaction. I'll play my hand in life to a higher purpose. If I'm wrong, I lose nothing in my journey. Pretending I don't care about dying is not for me. If God is, then I'm ready. And if not, I'm ready for that too. Being agnostic at my core keeps all my options open...

i am currently praying for england to win the world cup in brazil. i expect to discover if there is indeed a god within a few short weeks. when the answer to this age-old question is revealed to me i'll be sure to post it here. somehow, something tells me i'll be leaning towards the atheist side of the fence. :31:

Sorry, if you happen to see something that looks like a cruise missile heading your way, duck.

:explode

roflol!!!

Personally, I think those who believe heaven and hell are places you go to in some unseeable (by living people at least) afterlife have it wrong. I'm pretty sure I've been to one already... was there a long time (oh, about 7 years for me). I decided I didn't like it so I'm going to try the other, right now.

We were praying for the wrong thing(s) Cow. It's right here, in step 11...

"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."

:skillet

Btw, I'm in a really good mood right now. I just came back from my new church, Liquid Church (www.liquidchurch.com), not that I had an old church. I always feel "refreshed" afterwards. Pastor Cuyler delivered his "sermon" in jeans and a Rutger's teeshirt. I wore a teeshirt, shorts and sandals. We watched Pastor Tim (that's him on the home page of the website if you happen to check it out) do his thing from Morristown on two big screens on either side of the stage at New Brunswick High School. Next Sunday we'll be at the Heldrich Hotel in New Brunswick. Fixed walls are a bit too confining for this bunch. They appear to be growing at a phenominal rate. Who knows, maybe coming soon to a "theater" near you. I know one guy they just added pretty well. I hope to know him better as he evolves :)

I find this place a pretty good fit for me. Not perfect, but who/what is? Cuyler and I are going to do lunch sometime in the next couple of weeks. I know he can help me (already is) and maybe I can help him. I know he's interested in helping addicts recover.

Cow, well said. I feel pretty much the same way. I have used the silent approach at every AA meeting so far. Just feeling things out. Would really love to feel more a part of things but guess this is the best I'll get for now.

Nah, :Val007:

I feel just the same as this, Robby. I also think that being agnostic allows for true humility. I see it as the most open-minded approach, and isn't that what AA is about? Letting go of old ways of thinking, being entrenched, biased, etc? And opening oneself up to the possibilities?

Yes, there are. They're the ones firing back when everyone else is on their knees praying ;) But seriously, there are. I have friends who are atheist who were in combat.

-allan

:tapping

dSob, you know Cow happy for you. But you really frustrating me. Is one thing you very vocal about you god stuff in my Diary of Mad Cow threads, cuz those is kind of open topic. But now I make very specific CLEAR topic so I can discuss with other agnostic/atheist addicts, cuz is significant to me, and I would like to find some community in this respect. And I has, and is very fecund for me.

But yet, you chooses to come in and post repeatedly about you god/spiritual stuff. Why? Is many many thread that speak about spirituality, and God, and how it working for those it working for. You could even has you own thread! I would no ever come into such thread to explain and assert my atheism.
:gaah

d, What are you trying to prove? We know your spirituality is working for you, we just want some space to talk about what works for us. My looking inward for the strength to maintain sobriety is very different from you finding god within.

This isn't a debate, we are simply discussing our personal recoveries without god or religion.

Yeah. We don't have to worry about getting it exactly right in this life, as long as we understand there are no exclusions from life after death, we all get to make that final choice either way. I also don't think anybody gonna burn in hell either for wrongs. I do think we have to own our own mistakes and responsibilities though, and I believe as we journey our lives, what we want most authentically both rightly and wrongly is weighed in the balance against what is offered over our lifetime right up to the last moments. In other words, those who lived a life and want life after death get life, and those who don't, they just don't want it, they too get what they want as well. It would be like they never were. I think that is really the only righteous way forward. All the rhetoric about punishment is pure politics and religion, used to get advantage over the masses, imo.

Yeah, glad to hear you got all the bases covered, Cow. :)
Me too. :)

:grouphug:

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just sharing, as a former (like recently) agnostic. I don't want to debate anything.

But if y'all feel this thread should be closed to everyone but current secularists, perhaps you should ask a moderator or administrator to move it to one of the secular forums. I gotta feeling that's likely to happen soon now anyhow.

I don't see any advantage or disadvantage for being or not being spiritual. There is clearly an advantage for being authentic. Whatever our personal choices may or may not be are unimportant. Authenticity is everything... and at the same time sufficient for complete recovery, imo and experience.

I am thinking that as well...spirituality is thrown around a lot these days.


Here is what Wikipedia currently says “spirituality” means: “the term spirituality lacks a definitive definition, although social scientists have defined spirituality as the search for ‘the sacred’, where the ‘the sacred’ is broadly defined as that which is set apart from the ordinary and worthy of veneration.”
The reason it lacks a “definitive definition”, again, is because that “search for the sacred” varies based on how we look at life.

And being out is okay too. This is the real heart of authenticity when we are humbled by our most sincere convictions in the face of adversity.

How we choose freedom of life is as important as is freedom itself to make the choice in the first place.

Irony and paradox rocks !!

❤️

.

Sent from my iPhone using SoberRecovery

Alain De Botton - Religion For Atheists (Ideas at the House) - YouTube

Are you familiar with Alain De Botton book Religion for Atheists, I haven't read it, only excerpts.
I saw him a couple of years ago when he was over here.

I like a lot of his philosophies as he helps bridge a gap between religion and atheists.

A lot of my spirituality came through to me in music. A lot came through in stories and fables as well. Dr. Seuss and Lewis Carroll rock and of course Walt Whitman. I don't think you have to read anything that is specifically designed for "enlightenment". That's kind of the point I think is to figure it out on your own. Logically I believe it is just some perfect mix of brain chemistry that had eluded me when I was using. My right brain just says "What fun is that? Let's turn it into something more interesting. Play find-the-pattern."
How about this one Cow


O Me! O Life!




By Walt Whitman


Oh me! Oh life! of the questions of these recurring,

Of the endless trains of the faithless, of cities fill’d with the foolish,

Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless?)

Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the struggle ever renew’d,

Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me,

Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me intertwined,

The question, O me! so sad, recurring—What good amid these, O me, O life?


Answer.

That you are here—that life exists and identity,

That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse