Same here. It's odd to hear it and not immediately feel like I'm either in church or praying to the Christian God. I just don't say it. I stand there and kind of zone out or think about something else. I much prefer meetings that end in saying the Serenity prayer, and I just don't say the "God" part in that prayer. The rest of it seems fine to me.

I am not religious, if anything I believe in the power of nature and life and death. As far as I can tell these beliefs have neither been the cause of my drinking, nor my salvation from it. I live in a very liberal part of California and was quite surprised to learn how religious AA is here. I guess I didn't know about that part of the program. Unfortunately the feeling that I'm at church and faking my belief is a large part of why I rarely attend meetings. Fortunately that hasn't hindered my ability to get or stay sober. I am looking into Life Ring which is not focused around the concept of higher power and sobriety.

I agree. It's a moral code (which religion essentially us) wrapped in post war American pop philosophy.

Dear friend,

I have a story, to answer you with. Here it is.

Man walks into the deep forest and takes the path he believes good for him. There at the crossroad, stands the funny other man, whom the traveller despises and laughs at.
Standing at the crossroad, man tells the traveller : It is your responsibility, which way you are going to go. However, if you keep going your way, first it is too late to come back from deep darkness and lethal pits which are around your path and second there are enemies and looters on it. Do you want to consider going the other way ? I walked on it and it worked for me. It is well paved and you will find friends on it. Why, then, do you insist in going the wrong way ?

Let me ask you a question now : this religion of yours, which in the original Greek language means "no-god", this religion of yours - which way is it taking you ? To the darkness with pits and enemies or to the light with friends ?

My friend, evil-intending people will never straightforwardly tell you they mean evil to you. But, evil happens, in the end. Evil people will tell you it is no big deal to say "god doesn't exist", but this is what God of Israel sayy about them : "Fool says in his heart there is no God." Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

@pava

I don't think it has to be one or the other ( good vs evil). Ecclesiastes allows one some ambiguity IMO.

:lala :whoop

I knew I was an atheist from a very young age after I was informed by my religion that God was to be "feared."

I later learned that it was the bearers of such news who needed fearing.

As my life has progressed, with all its twists and turns, I have continued to search for concrete "evidence" (I mean the scientific kind). Someone once told me that was what "faith" was supposed to be for -- not needing "evidence" of the existence of something. But I do, and I am still searching.

I still do not believe in God, but I suspect He knows it.

@Pava. Remember: The book you quote was written 2000 years ago. A lot has happened since then. Don't worry, you won't burn in hell for questioning your faith.

nothing to do with Canada, Cow.
LifeRing started and is concentrated in California, and my Vancouver meeting was based on the "American way". there is now a LRCanada, mostly based around Victoria, which does things quite differently, and not in a way i'm partial to.

but the country itself is less "religious" than the States (i have no idea where you graze), and in my AA travels to different meetings never have i been confronted with the Lord's Prayer. can't imagine it.
interesting aside to me is the number here on this thread who say they're atheist or agnostic and raised Catholic. i was raised that way, too. not a theist now, nor atheist, nor agnostic, nor christian...but i know there's "more", or "other".

Butchard Gardens...hm...saw that once a looong time ago. more prefer wilder places, but not too wild.

if you like tulips, Holland is the place to go :)
have seen tulip fields there the size of Manitoba prairies. okay, i exaggerate...

Fini…I noticed the Catholic thing too. I did 12 years of hard time with the nuns…..;).

Interesting story. One question though, what the hell is the funny dude doing back at the crossroads, anyway? Sounds like he is up to no good to me.

Jaynie,
sometimes i wonder if there's a connection between being raised Catholic and later alcoholism or drinking problems.
i was raised that way in a little village in Germany.
after elementary school, i was sent to 'Gymnasium' (combination of middle and highschool) from grade five to thirteen, nun-run catholic all-girl school.

wasn't all bad, though (although i didn't realize it at the time). at least we had role models of females in positions of authority and capability and brains. female science teachers and so on...and we didn't have to get into the competing-for-boys-attention-thing while at school; benefits, those.

He was probably handing out copies of the Watchtower.

i fell about laughing at this one sorry for that
but consider myself quite quick at picking up on things that get thrown at me as gospel but i never thought of that one

thanks for that funny post

My wife was also raised catholic in Bavaria but attended public Realschule. She doesn't have issues with alcohol, but I do think there is a general sense of shame that goes with being raised in a strict religion as part of a somewhat uptight culture (don't take that personally, there's a lot I like about Germans).

You're one of the few German natives I've encountered in recovery btw. Schöne Grüße aus Massachusetts. (:

I've wished before I could be comfortable with atheism. It would make things easier for me, especially in terms of recovery.

Although I've wished things could be easier and I could accept atheism, I've never found evidence that God doesn't exist. Just like I've never found evidence that I don't exist. But, hey, maybe I don't. It's not out of the question.

Songthread, science does not quite work that way. You are using convoluted logic.

In 1992 during a presentation at Caltech, skeptic James Randi used the phrase "you can't prove a negative". He claims that he cannot prove a negative (such that telepathy does not exist), but he also argues that an individual who claims telepathy exists must prove so. He discusses that induction is often used as a mode of proving a thesis, but if an individual assumes that something is or is not, then the person must prove so. Further, as he says, he does not take an advocacy position, as a lawyer would. He says that he cannot prove that a negative is true, but he could attempt to use evidence and induction to support a claim that he is biased toward, such as a claim that something does not exist (ex. flying reindeer).

The thing is, trying to prove a negative is futile.

Yes, Cow, the existence of one or more deities and relationship between science and religion has been debated for thousands of years.

Some claims about the existence of gods or about their actions may be shown false - such as the claim that Helios pulls the sun across the sky.

Who is to say the ancients were not right? Maybe "modern day" theists are wrong!

I am happy for those who have "faith" if it makes them better human beings. Instead of imagining a supernatural manipulator of the universe, I am more inclined to believe that if such a being exists, our human brains do not have the capacity to grasp it.

Looking at life on a molecular level with an electron microscope, one can see nanoparticles and other infinitesimally small matter. Atomic structure appears to be infinitesimally small universes, no? Expanding outward into the macro universe, you see much of the same thing. Pretty awesome. Pretty awesome there are people much smarter than I am who figured out how to actually look at those things.

Yes, I'm an agnostic or atheist or apatheist or whatever. I also know that I'm not the center of the universe. Whatever anyone else believes or believes about me is none of my business. I'm happiest and of most use when I live in that space.

-allan

i can not argue with the atoms theory as its been proved unless of course we are not proving it but merely seeing it the way we wish to see it

how to prove a negative comes down to how a person thinks and feels what a negative is

for example killing someone is a negative as its proved that the person now is minus there life

no argument its negative to kill someone
but then doesnt that prove its a negative ?

also who is going to be willing to put it to the test by agreeing to be killed to prove its negativity ?

i guess we all accept its negative ; )

Interesting thread. I'm still working out my own beliefs so have little more to add, but I'm really enjoying eavesdropping here.

You had to know I'd be dropping in here Cow :)

Cool, sounds like you moved from atheist to agnostic.

Cow already knows this but for the benefit of others, perhaps, I was agnostic all my life until recently. To make a long story short, I now believe God does exist, inside me, and inside everyone. My God is my conscience. I now just try (real hard) to listen to it and DO what it tells me is right. EZ PZ.

By listening to your conscience you are proving we don't need religion to provide us with a moral structure because most humans are born with an inherent set of good moral values:a213: