I believe!
I believe in the power of a belly laugh...
the twinkle in someone's eye...
that cats really do smile...
that there is magic in the universe...
the power of wonder...of exploration...of discovery...
and of love, tears, heartbreak, irony, humor, tragedy, and joy...

None of those have anything to do with religion.

Ahem. I must edit after seeing your post cow.
Oh exhaulted one cow...somebody get on emoticon post haste. :)

As you know Cow, cow's dont need gods, neither do ants, nor monkeys, nor the billions upon billions of microbes that live in your several stomachs - thank goodness they are not building churches and stuff in there...

I also think its the case that gods are a human construct (note "gods" plural), and I expect we created our gods to fill the void that we sense when we start to use our unique human ability to sit around and ponder the big questions -- why is this all here, what's the point, where did it come from, where do I go when I die..

So its not such a bad thing that we have these gods, we've evolved with what looks like a unique ability to analyse our surroundings to a very abstract level and also developed language to a point where we can convey those abstract ideas amongst ourselves.

So really, in a way, gods are the symptom of a very good thing. But then, so is science and music and mathematics and poetry :)

:c014:

It was the main reason I have never gone to AA, spoon fed paganism until I was old enough to walk away without a fight I had no desire to put my faith into anything other than myself. When you get you get far enough away from the alter you can begin to see the harnesses, wires, smoke and mirrors.

I needed to believe in me before I could believe in anyone else to make a difference in my sobriety. Happily sober on my own behalf and glad I walked that way.

I think this is right, the problems start when either side of the us/them divide starts to impose its will on the other camp. I guess both sides are guilty of it - in AA you may well get people who are fanatical about the role of Him and conversely in the Secular world I can imagine there's a fair amount of mockery aimed at the AA peeps.

For me, it was important to realise that people were doing this (by that I mean getting sober) through their own devices, or "will power" as it might be known. Its important because I initially found AA when I was starting to realise I was drinking waaaaay too much, and then had to get my head around higher powers and not being in control, which were really very alien to my "world view". So it was quite difficult for me to absorb and hence was failing to make any progress at all, but I didnt know of an alternative.

Just being made aware of the non-AA alternative was a great comfort at a time when I was very confused and a bit miserable.

In some circles I am considered an atheist, because I no longer believe in a Good Old Deity G.O.D.

In other circles I am considered a theist, because I do believe in a soft invisible power that supports us under certain conditions.

However, IMO defining that power makes it a god in a box. If it fits in a box (any size box), it is to small to call a Higher Power.

“Now pay attention to this. God is nameless for no one can either speak of him or know him. Therefore a pagan master says that what we can know or say of the First Cause reflects ourselves more than it does the First Cause, for this transcends all speech and all understanding . . . He is being beyond being: he is a nothingness beyond being. Therefore St. Augustine says: ‘The finest thing that we can say of God is to be silent concerning him from the wisdom of inner riches.’ Be silent therefore, and do not chatter about God, for by chattering about him, you tell lies and commit a sin. If you wish to be perfect and without sin, then do not prattle about God. Also you should not wish to understand anything about God, for God is beyond all understanding. A master says: If I had a God that I could understand, I would not regard him as God. If you understand anything about him, then he is not in it, and by understanding something of him, you fall into ignorance, and by falling into ignorance, you become like an animal since the animal part in creatures is that which is unknowing. If you do not wish to become like an animal therefore, do not pretend that you understand anything of the ineffable God.”
― Meister Eckhart, Selected Writings

You are right matt! I am a devout Atheist and believe that if I don't drink, I can't get drunk. I go to AA sometimes and can see the human-ness in nearly everyone regardless of what they say they believe. I don't do big book/12 and 12 meetings due to Bill's evangelical tone. I have announced more than once my non-belief and had a few sideward glances but most of my true friends know I'm a good guy and I feel the same about them despite their beliefs. It's really irrelevant-treating people with compassion, being of service, listening and lending a helping hand to those who are down are what holds AA together AND keeps people "sober". I once said in a meeting "We could meet every night and do the Hokey-Pokey and share our experience and have the same results as doing the steps", and believe it to this day. In 50 yrs this will be a non-issue as the trend toward free-thinking is exploding at a much faster rate than theistic problem solving all over the world. AA will follow and change. Today is National-Save-Your-Own-Ass-Day and we do this together.

I have no trouble with anyone’s beliefs. You either believe something or you don't. It seems sort of odd to speak about deciding to believe something. The most one can do is to keep an open mind and investigate.

A very strict agnostic/atheist from my teen years, I stopped debating religion after an experience of shaking the faith of a believer. I was still in high school. I stopped debating the topic after this. I asked myself what good was I doing.

It was much later when someone pointed out that I had never looked at the content of the worlds religions, yet I had passed judgment on them. They had a point. I had never investigated.

So I did. I studied them. For a while I did so quite diligently and with as much of an open mind as I could muster. Then one morning I asked the universe for an answer, and I got it! (Please note that by saying this I am making no effort to change anyones thinking. I know some folks will believe this is my purpose... because that's what I previously would have thought. But I'm just relating my experience.)

Now, my passion is to to make sense of my experience. I have looked into the realms of quantum physics, near death experiences and the experience of others who have had mystical experiences.

I still don't think I can decide to believe something. For example, experiments demonstrate that the smallest of particles do not exist as particles (only as waves) until we begin to observe them. Only then do they become matter. Kinda hard for me to accept this. I'm going to need to do a bit more investigating.

Well anyway, believe what you will. As I said at the outset, I don't think you have a choice about it. The choice is only about the investigation you choose to make.

I has to say, base on being on SR for year or so and not seeing lot of talk about this, I was all hunker down for tomato tossing and is very surprise by response. I has written longer piece about gods on my Ima Cow show, so I think I share it here:

Awuh, sub-particle physics make eveything suspect! (Schrodinger's Cow!) But I think is just matter of human brain being so limited, yes? I mean, it only perceive 2/billionth of available energies.

What an odd thing to say. I mean, maybe, but maybe not. Weren't you just playing god to a caterpillar the other day? Who knows what it "thought"?

I feel compelled to defend the Christian teaching here. Just because the Church of X,Y, Z religion decides to fight each other and cause problems for people, doesn't mean these churches/religions accurately reflect the teaching of Jesus in the four gospels. That teaching is explicitly non-violent.

I do not belong to any church or AA, but I find it irritating when people dump on Jesus and ascribe to him the twisted philosophies of any particular church/religion. I think his teaching is a beautiful one and has given me a reason not to pick up a drink on days where I might have otherwise.

I think we can all agree that anything that helps us stay sober is a good thing. If it works, don't knock it.

Copernicus, what an apt name to appear in this thread. Do you own a cat?

Cow how about this for an emoticon. :egypt:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...NN2ClhWkSNRylA

I call myself agnostic, which I guess makes me a fence sitter, but if pinned down I don't believe there is any divine being guiding my thoughts and actions. So to some that would make me an atheist. But I can give some credence to Deism, the belief that a divine watchmaker created the Earth and the universe and then left the scene to allow humans to pursue free will.

One thing I question is those who claim to be agnostics or even atheists yet claim to believe in “spiritualism.” I don't know what that means but I wouldn't criticize anyone who finds a path to sobriety no matter what the belief. I believe in science and I have see no evidence of a spirit inside of my brain, only electro-chemical reactions guided by thousands or millions of years of evolution.

I've heard educated rationalists speak of “spiritualism” and I would really like to know what they mean by that term.

I cling to my agnosticism because I just don't know. I've never in my life seen evidence of a deity but my personal lack of evidence or experience does not mean none exists. Obviously if the heavens opened up and God spoke to me I would reevaluate my positions.

In the end, however, if you get sober it doesn't matter what you believe.

Hey Cow, I'm an atheist too. Was raised Roman Catholic but stopped believing when I was around 12, 13 or so? My parents still forced me to go to church and Sunday school classes until it came time for my confirmation in which case I basically hid and didn't show up. The nun who taught the Subday school class came to my house and tried to drag me there!

Anyway I guess the way it's impacted my recovery is I know it's all on me to stay sober. I don't believe any supernatural being is gonna help me if I pray to him( because God is a white man with a big white beard duh) Yes if there was a supreme deity to help me along every step of the way that would sure make things easier, but I can't be swayed in the slightest to believe in it. I've tried to with an open mind and it just seems like such a man made construct to me.

Still I find that AA meetings and ideas have helped. I just have to ignore the god talk and listen to the rest at meetings and I do use the one day at a time philosophy

I never believed in god as I was was taught about God in catholic school. I never believed in any god as described in any other religion I looked into or studied briefly. I wanted to. I tried to. Earnestly and for prolonged periods of time, yet it never came.

What I did always believe was that there was some force that humans would probably never understand, that puts the life, love, and energy in all things - living or not. A creative force, a power, an energy, a life force, a healing force, a good.

When I got into AA I quickly realized that I could call that power "god", for simplicity sake and practical purposes. I also, out of desperation, took the suggestion to pray to that power whether I believed it would work or not. I prayed, and it worked. And it still works. And in 30 sober years of using it, I can't deny that.

I've often thought about the fact that maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy, I'm tricking myself, it's all simply due to belief and not actually any kind of god... but even in my most faithless moments, the simple (seemingly ridiculous) action of getting on my knees and praying, has pulled me through to the other side of whatever it is was facing. Didn't always eliminate fear or soften the ride, but got me through it. Most importantly, without a drink. And over time, it's healed me in countless ways.

What I've come believe after many experiences applying the 12 steps to my life is this. And this has nothing to do with AA as written, it's my experience, my opinion, and won't be found in any BB quotes. I believe in a powerful and benevolent universe. Seeing the stars night after night, how a tiny seed can grow into a giant Oak, and how all things work beautifully before humans get a hold of them is assurance enough for me. I believe I can release myself to that universe through prayer (or a heartfelt and sincere 3rd step), only because we haven't yet found another way. By doing that, and working all 12 steps I'm able to get out of my own way and let all things flow as they should. I can't do that regularly, in fact, I struggle with it often - yet I find when I am living and functioning in that manner, things go best in my life, and I'm the most content and happy.

Was going to end this by saying it works, so I don't question it, but I do question it. And even when I come up with very logical reasons why it shouldn't work, it keeps on working. So I keep on doing it.

I'm an atheist - one might even call me an "anti-theist", as I feel that belief in God is actually harmful to the advancement of civilization today. I'm on board with Richard Dawkins, who says that stupid beliefs should not be above ridicule. That said, I've found it's a lot of hot air wasted. I can't "convert" anyone by venting my frustrations. If someone wants to get into it with me, that's fine. But I'm done starting the fights.

In regards to AA, you're right to be wary. I don't like it. That said, in the early goings I had to go to AA to complete my rehab stint, so I went. I said the prayers and all that BS. And you know what? I actually enjoyed some of it. The speakers, the big rooms full of "people like me" - it was comforting. These were healthy, smart, happy people (at least, some of them were).

Being an atheist in recovery has been great. While I don't gravitate to the AA-style support groups, I have found another kind of freedom in remembering that this is my ONE LUCKY CHANCE to be alive. And I want to be here to see everything I can before the lights go out. Our brains are amazing - and yeah, it's a shame they stop functioning after we pass away. That said, it would be even more of a shame not to take advantage of this brief life we have!

Nothing helps me embrace my atheist lifestyle more than travel and exploring. I went by myself down to the jungles of Central America and lived in a tiny wooden shack for 3 months after getting sober. I saw so many interesting things! Did people think I was going off the deep end? Sure. But who gives a rat's arse?

As atheists, we don't live so that we can claim a prize at the finish line. This life IS the prize, Cow. :)

Atheist and neuroscientist Sam Harris has a wonderful 5-minute video that really puts things into perspective for me as an atheist in recovery. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF8FpPaukDY

I'm an atheist, and no....... it hasn't affected my sobriety at all.

On the same note, i still haven't even gone to any "meetings" and such........... partly because i feel those places are pro-religion and it will be awkward if i show up and that's the case, but also because i am shy/an introvert and i prefer to keep to myself.

Honestly? I don't see what "religion" has to do with quitting alcohol............ i just stopped drinking.

Other than being difficult in the start and the relative boredom of sobriety, quitting is fairly simple............ not EASY, but simple.

I am a man of logic and science. I do not believe in any gods. No God, no sun gods, no gods of the harvest, no gods of war. Nothing. Charles Darwin is my prophet.

Sam Harris is my favorite of all those anti theist guys. His approach to it is the best I think, although you have to appreciate Hitchens genuine outrage.

Agnostic here. I could care less either way. Living pay check to pay check.

I consider myself agnostic, and I am doing AA, but ending meetings with the Lord's Prayer when the fellowship supposedly allows members to define a HP of their own choosing definitely bugs me a bit, as that is unquestionably a Christian prayer. Not that I don't know it by heart, having grown up Catholic, and I do go through the motions of saying it. However, relating it to my chosen HP is difficult because for years I associated 'The Lord' with an almighty, all-powerful, all-seeing, just/loving, jealous/vengeful, humanoid Holy Trinity called God, and that is not what my HP is.

I'm a spiritual person, but most of the 12-Step religious doctrine (I personally believe the 12-Steps are very religious and not spiritual) goes against my spiritual beliefs.

Certainly, not true, but you're free to believe what you want.

well, i dealt with it by going to secular peer support, both online and face-to-face. i found LifeRing online and was lucky enough to have a meeting here in Vancouver, too.

and since i wasn't powerless nowaynohow and not a god-believer and even if i were i'd never understand or accept that god or a higher power was needed to get and stay sober...off i went on my secular route.

that was seven years ago.

along the way, hm, after two or three years, i finally grasped, after much torturous examining of my own experience drinking when i had decided not to (over and over) and examining with the help of others on my secular forum concepts of power, agency, choice, control....well, i grasped that i had indeed been powerless in regards to alcohol.
later along that route, i started checking out AA, something i'm still doping. a 'spiritual solution' started making sense to me as i had more years of sobriety and could see better what the drinking had been for/about, so to speak. for me.

i don't know where you are that being an atheist is not accepted, but there are other places to go. sr is a reasonable example :)
and, hm, it's an option to practice NOT pushing back, yes? waste of energy to argue and defend against personal beliefsystems of that sort, i find. hard to resist, though, at times, for me. gets easier with longer term sobriety. for me.

to answer more specifically to your question/thread title, i'd say that my beliefs or lack thereof impacted my recovery by steering me to the place that was right for me at that time and away from where i couldn't have gone at all, and then later my recovery impacted me in such a way that my view changed.
these are vast generalizations, Cow.

LOL that made my night!