Why do people force the disease and 12 steps on everyone else?
 

I'm doing a course to help me with staying abstinent from alcohol and cocaine. Most of the workers (apart from a couple) make out that they AND us our powerless, that we 'need' to work a programme, and say we have a disease. This really pisses me off and i'm struggling to want to go back. Luckily the manager is scientific and doesn't believe in AA, but most of the time we have other workers who talk as if i have a disease. They are nice people and 'sometimes' say it's whatever works for you as individuals, but they sometimes talk as though it's not a theory and it's a fact...

People "push" AA primarily because it worked for them and a big part of it working is believing that it will work. They have to believe it. There is no ill intent.

People like and want to share what worked for them, and they tend to adhere stridently to their own personal belief systems.

It's not unique to AA, or even to recovery groups.

There's no mystery or conspiracy at large :)

D

Because it worked for me and countless others. My best thinking got me into a horrible situation. I have found the thinking that caused the problem is seldom thinking that will solve it.

I've never experienced that. I have heard people talk about what worked for them, which is nice. I'd rather not reinvent the wheel.

It doesn't matter if it is a disease or not. I needed to take responsibility either way. I also am not powerless....but I sure as hell was over drugs and booze. And I know I go back to that hell if I pick up. Today I am empowered and free.

Glad you are here.

Thanks for your responses. I know they are sharing what worked for them and that they are being kind and want to help, sometimes though it's like they are brainwashed with it and then brainwash other people. Which isn't fair, i know many people who have died after attending AA as AA induced a sense of powerless in them and their relapse was worse than they had ever had before in their past. I also know people who have remained sober through AA and say it has saved their lives. But i get p'd off with 'surrender your will' and 'we'll restore you to sanity' er???/ i'm not insane! and i am not defected.... it's a strange programme and I've heard people say they're a cult and the history of AA enlightened me massively.

I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt I was totally insane. I continued to ingest a drug that I knew was killing me, destroying my relationship with loved ones, killing my career, endangering others, and wrecking my brain but I did not see this as a major problem.

If that ain't insanity I don't know what it is

I see two possible reasons, one, it worked for them and they think it will work for you, or two, they don't know what to do, how to help, so they give the first answer they can come up with. It's grabbing at straws, but they're just trying to help.

You maybe.....not me....

sane people don't do coke and drink to the point that they are around workers, which I will assume is at some form of treatment facility.

let it eat ya up with ya want. doesn't read to be workin very good.

You're saying I'm insane because i took a drink and did a line? I'd say that was 'taking a drink and doing a line'......
I asked to do the course, it's a short post detox course. I want to remain sober and have as much defense, knowledge and power as i can with my sobriety.
I'm not quite sure what 'let it eat ya up with ya want' means? or 'doesn't read to be workin very good' ?

I think people have a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be powerless. And what it means to be insane. Without getting too heavily into it, I'll start by saying that the truth is, IMO we're all pretty much insane. Just take a quick look at the world. I can go into it at depth, but I'll keep it short and sweet; we're killing each other daily in the name of god, half the planet is starving while another half is spending 90,000 on sports and luxury cars, the US has a national debt that is beyond belief and will never get paid back, we worship, look up to, and listen to what actors have to say, we pay them millions and teachers pennies, we elect our world leaders based on how much money they have to campaign, we're killing ourselves with chemicals and the food we eat... AND on top of all this and about a thousand other things I can add, we believe we're completely sane. We're not, and I'll add, especially if we think we are.

As for the powerless thing, we can talk all we want about how much power we think we have, but truth is it's not quite what we think. When sandy hit my neighborhood a couple of years ago, it became really obvious. When my friend Joe, who was believed to be in perfect health died of a massive heart attack two saturdays ago at 51, it showed how powerless he really was. The people close to him got a blast of that powerlessness, also. We can plan something, work at it, do everything we can to make it happen as we want... but in the end we'll be pretty powerless over how it really plays out. We can want our spouses, children, friends, and colleagues to act in certain ways that would be in theirs and everyone else best interest, but trust me when I say, they won't do what we know they should. We are powerless over that. There are lots and lots of things we are powerless over, and we can accept it, or believe, "No! I am not powerless!!!!". That there, to me adds to my first paragraph and makes me think again, if we believe we're not powerless, then we must be insane.

The things we DO have power over are our actions and decisions. AA, as far as I know, never tells anyone they're stripped of that power. To believe that, would IMO also be insane. AA, in fact, only asks that we admit that we're powerless over alcohol. And they don't say everyone is. Some people have no issue with alcohol at all. AA is only suggesting that the person who has tried countless times to stop, yet can't, surrender to it. Surrender to the idea that they can drink safely, or normally. That's not all that huge a deal, if you ask me.

As for the god stuff, I can see that being a real sticking point for some because it requires a belief in something bigger, and more powerful than ourselves. And the steps suggest we call that power, God. That stops some peole short, and I get it. But there is soooo much room in the 12 steps for how we actually define god. It can be Jesus Christ, Allah, The elements, or it can be as simple as a belief in a benevolent universe. How I've come to define god is a lot closer to the last description there. And it's worked countless "miracles" in my life over the past 29 years.

I think people get caught up in certain words that immediately shut their minds down. I feel fortunate that I had enough pain in my life to open the door to welcome some new thinking. It has made all the difference in the world.

Last note on this is that I now have lots of power in my life, thanks to the 12 steps. I have the power to drink, or not drink, and I choose every day to not drink. I have the power to get my ass to work, on time (early actually), for the past 20 years without fail. I have the power to start a new career which I've been considering as of late. The power to travel the world, which I have, to play music in countries I never even dreamed I'd see while I was drinking, the power to own property and become a landlord, the power to meet a wonderful woman and marry her... lots and lots and lots of power, but in a very ironic way that power was born of my recognizing and admitting to things I was powerless over. Took a lot of time, and there's a lot more to say regarding all this, but yeah... that's how this stuff has been playing out for me.

The above is all simply MY OPINION on the things I've learned by utilizing the 12 steps in my life. It is NOT the opinion of AA, nor it's other members. Some might even vehemently disagree.

Just wanted to give my take on it.

I think a lot of people take the insanity part personally. It says that the program can restore our lives to sanity.... Not meaning that the person is insane but the way he or she lives isn't sane. And I agree.

Some of the things that I would do around alcohol were completely insane (drink despite a hangover, not eat so that I could get drunker, when out with friends, count how many drinks I had and if I was ahead of the other people around me, drive drunk, and the list could go on).

It could be seen as brainwashing because everyone speaks the same lingo, but that could be said for anything. Youth, work, etc. it works for a lot of people. Non 13 step programs work for a lot of people. Something I'm trying to get ahold of is if something is pissing me off, why is that. What is it doing to me personally that ticks me off.

Thanks for that Joe, and sorry to hear about your friend.
I think maybe if i was a daily drinker who could not quit after countless times like you said, that AA would be useful to me. I enjoyed relating and identifying with people there, it's just the rest of the stuff...
I really don't believe that I'm insane though, a bit mad yes but not insane, that word is huge and could be very damaging. I don't think you can say 'we'. How does 'coming to believe that a power greater than myself' restore me to sanity? how does that actually restore me to sanity exactly? and why do i have to believe that something outside of myself can do this, why can't i do it myself?
I do share with the less fortunate than myself and yes greed and power can be abused in many ways, but for me i think that i need power, i don't need to give what little bit i have left away. I see what you're saying, it's the alcohol, but i've heard many different interpretations of this, one woman said today that she is powerless over her addiction, that she could not help it when it comes.... i need to believe that i do have power, i do have choices.
New thinking for me comes in the form of CBT, where science has proven that we can reprogramme our brains etc i don't believe that anyone is powerless over alcohol, they choose to drink in that moment, yeh it has dramatic addictive effects for some, but it is a drug after all, and a very addictive one. Doesn't make me powerless over it

What I experienced.

Alcoholic insanity: repeated use of a substance that is killing me. The obsession that one day it will not be so.

Powerlessness over alcohol: the inability to have one drink of alcohol without craving another.

Alcoholism. Pretty straight forward. I found that most arguments against alcoholism being a disease are rooted in denial. And the sad thing is denial has brought many an alcoholic to their graves.

I don't think that you will get an impartial answer here.

it will either be pro or against...and spark a big debate about who's recovery method is best.

fwiw, I hope you stay sober however you get there...that is the important thing and be happy with your choices.

In 1956 the American Medical Association voted to define alcoholism as a medically treatable disease so that such treatment by physicians would become eligible for payment from third parties (insurance companies). The decision was not made on the basis of any analysis of the scientific evidence.

Medical doctors, even those who are members of AA, do not believe that alcoholism is a disease.

It's been argued for decades whether or not alcoholism is a disease, but for some reason that always seemed like a non issue for me. I don't really care whether it's a disease or not. I know how alcohol affected me, and I'm grateful I found a method to stop, and stay stopped. If it helps someone to call it a disease, awesome. If it hurts someone to call it a disease, then don't call it a disease. People will use whatever excuse they want to stop or continue drinking. Bottom line in any method of recovery is that we need the williingness.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

The longer I'm on this planet, the longer I'm sober, and the more I hang around SR, the more I'm starting to believe and actually accept that we're all wired differently. For some people believing a power outside themselves is helpful, for others it's inside. Some call alcohlism a disease, some not. One person quits a day at time, one quits forever. They both stay sober. The CBT thing was actually a big eye opener for me. I spent almost 2 years (and a lot of money) in therapy using CBT, read a handful of books on mindfulness, kept charts of my experiences, thoughts and feeling... really worked hard at it, and for me it yielded very little. I have a good friend who was having lots of problems, he got into CBT and it completely turned his life around in a matter of months. I know it works, but for some reason it just didn't with me. My brain I guess just doesn't work that way. I got back into diligiently practicing the steps, and I started to move forward again.

I try really hard to only talk about what works for me. I don't always succeed, especially when it comes to discussions about medication. I have some really strong convictions, based in fact regarding that... but that's another can of worms. What I think causes trouble is when we start ridiculing, or attacking in any way whatsoever what works for other people. It puts people on the defensive, and they respond. Or I should say, I do. :) I aim and hope to one day not have that affect me at all, but I'm not quite there yet. I get pissed too whenever I hear anyone in AA tell someone they have to do anything, in any certain way. None of us have to do anything. Period. Except die, eventually. If we want to stay sober we need to find what works for us, share that with others if we like and they ask, and leave people to do what they feel works best for them. AA has some simple messages oustside of the steps that are really helpful. Live and let live is one of them.

You seem pretty angry and I am wondering whether it is from some sound intellectual objections to the program in which case you might want to explore other alternatives such as RR or SMART or whether you are just quacking.
Rather than being upset with AA etc. and giving some ammunition to your AV for your next relapse, maybe you should put that energy into finding what works for you.
What is truly upsetting you?
The fact that the program you are in "pushes" AA or the fact that you cannot drink and drug anymore?

PS: I do not "push" AA but I always recommend that people give it a shot since it works for me and I truly enjoy the program. There are other paths to sobriety. The ultimate goal it to stop destroying ourselves and live a content balanced life.

Do you have an alternative plan?

As you have expressed an appreciation of AA history I wonder if you have seen this quote by Bill Wilson.

“We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use.”

I’m curious about your view that the term ‘disease’, and the 12 steps are being “forced”. What exactly does that mean? Are you expected to believe something you don’t wish to believe? Are you being coerced into expressing or agreeing with views that you do not hold? If so, this could be characterized as ‘forced’.

If not, and people are just expressing opinions that you don’t agree with, then consider that perhaps you might be being a bit harsh and/or intolerant of their views.

To continue to drink and drug in light of all the consequences I faced in the past. Jails, Institutions, suicide attempts, hurt family members, lost jobs, etc

Doesn't sound like a sound mind to me. And I did many times. So yes I was insane. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. That this time I could handle it when history proved I couldn't.

And yes My higher power did restore me to sanity. I am powerless over alcohol and drugs

AA and the 12 Step model is still the biggest game in town. To be fair to the OP there are some people who do tend to take the approach that it is the 'only' way to get and stay sober. Those people tend also to insist there is no recovery without one's higher power being in essence god. As an atheist I can't accept that, nor can I accept the condescending manner in which the original material suggests atheists and agnostics are arrogant and wilful.

The majority of AA members who are sober long term though are much less pushy or dogmatic. The word 'suggested' in reference to the programme is used in the big book and other AA literature quite a bit and the original ideas really were much less pushy, even if the 'spiritual' element was ultimately the key as far as they were concerned.

Times have changed though. SMART and other secular models are around now and AA offers a less table thumping approach in my experience, especially here in the UK. That may not apply quite so much in the USA I suppose where religion is still important to many more people.

I'm not sure what 'quacking' is supposed to mean, but I'm simply saying it annoys me. This time I have managed to stay sober for several months, the longest since i left AA. I will check out smart and RR and some self help books, and come on here. I'm not in Denial because I don't believe I have a disease, that's just ridiculous. Obviously I wouldn't be on here or doing the group if I was in 'denial' would I. I am not upset with AA, I just don't see how an AA member can say that this guy was in denial because he didn't want to go to AA..and how she said 'WE' have a disease, 'WE' are powerless. When we are asked to speak from the 'I'. There are many other ways that people have got and stayed sober without AA so it annoys me when AA members make out like it's 'US' and 'THEM' sort of thing..respect other people's views..

So don't do AA :)

Not sure where you are so check out AVRT and SMART and LifeRing - they're the most widespread non 12 step programmes.

Hope you find something that works for you, messed :)

D

Thanks Deeker,

Do you mind if I ask how exactly did your higher power restore you to sanity?

I personally never used any plan, or program to help me. I never went to a meeting, and this is the first time I've ever pursued any correspondence of what I've gone through. Others told me to try AA, or try a program, go to rehab, they offered many solutions, none of which appealed to me. I did it on my own, which doesn't work for everyone, but turns out worked perfect for me. You are only powerless when you surrender that power, and your only as insane as you believe yourself to be. On a completely off handed note however, sanity is truly in the eyes of the beholder, society doesn't define sanity because there is no definition. What's sane? What's normal? So yes we are all insane, we are all sane. It's your choices that define what you are.

I also do not believe addiction is a disease. In fact, referring to it as such makes me feel like we are smacking in the face people with true diseases. For the 99% of people with diseases, they did not choose that way of life. Addicts chose to use or to drink, and chose to continue. Unless someone stood over them and forced alcohol or drugs into their system on a daily basis, it fails in comparison. And even then, there is always the option to quit.

Me too, except I have posted about my path before.
I just am not a joiner. I don't believe I am powerless. I do believe I have have free choice and with that comes obligation to use it wisely.
As a rational human being, I knew addiction was harming not only me but the people who loved me. Therefore, I did some research on options, made a plan, and started.

Who cares how you "do" getting sober or what you call it--just do it without overthinking and through your daily actions find peace and recovery.

If somebody said that you're in denial because you don't want to go to AA, that person said something stupid that has nothing to do with AA. Being in denial means not admitting there is a problem, when there is a problem. Or thinking one can drink safely, when it's clear that one can't. Some can. The majority of people who wind up passing through the doorways of AA, can't. If they could, they wouldn't be there.

People, IMO, misuse the word "we". And some get even more obnoxious and use the word, "you" :) . In the steps and the literature the we, to me, is to be taken literally. WE admitted we were powerless over alcohol. That's what the people who wrote the bigbook and the steps did. Period. The step just tells what they did. It doesn't say, "You must admit you are powerless over alcohol." It doesn't say anything of that sort.

As for the question you asked Deeker, I can't answer for him/her (I forget), but I can tell you what I believe, as I too say that god has restored me to sanity. Again, this is completely just me, not anywhere in AA literature, but how I've come to believe my definition of god works in my life.

When I surrender, I cease fighting. I cease giving my own negative energy (the fighting or need to control) to the things that ail me. When I do that, with the belief that there is a power in the universe (in my case a benevolent energy/force that fuels birth, the planet's rotation, my breathing while I'm asleep, etc) that can naturally heal it, it happens. Whether I or anyone else likes the way that sounds, it's true for me, and I can write pages and pages of detailed experiences. I tried quitting drinking countless times and couldn't, then one day I surrendered thinking I'm probably going to just die a drunk. When I did that I found myself 3 days later in a detox, by a serious of coincidences. And on a path to recovery. Similar story with my 2 1/2 pack a day smoking problem, lack of commitment issues, issues of being self centered, my desire for more than my fair share of sex, and lots of other stuff I was completely oblivious too when I was drinking, and in early sobriety. Things that didn't make me a bad person, but undoubtedly got in the way of my life. I never thought I was a bad person (I am a very good person), and in fact believed I had little if any character defects when I first came into AA. Took time for me to be able to honestly and acurately look at myself.

I'll add to that the fact that character defects don't by themselves make a person "bad", and we all have them. If we believe we don't, then that in itself is a glaring defect :). This took a while though to become clear to me.

I realize I'm goin way off here, but want to add one more thing. And again, this might have to just do with the way people are wired. In my experience, when I try to fix something in me, a habit, something about my personality, etc., it always winds up just getting worse. When I let it go in prayer (whether it be a subconscious healing, a letting go, or a dude sitting in a cloud pulling strings cuz I asked), it works. No hardcore science there, but something that's been completely effective for 29 years and counting.

That could sound hilarious, mystical, magical, or whatever, to someone who has never experienced it. And that's fine. My life experience isn't theirs. My only hope for them is that they find something that works equally as well, for them. I am really happy and supportive of my friend who uses CBT, and I never suggested he try or do anything differently. I don't believe he wants to do anything differently, and he doesn't have to.

[edit] Just reread and want to make clear that I by no means think I'm a perfectly healed person. Each and every day things I was unaware of with myself are revealed. I do my best to become the best person I can be, but I'm just as human as the next guy, and still have lot of stuff I can do differently (and/or better). All ya gotta do is read some of my other posts on SR to verify that. :) This website has a tendancy to bring the worst in me out at times, but I won't run from that. I feel I'm learning a lot here. And I'm hoping to be helpful at the same time.