I don't understand you. Existentialism, for me, has no angst. I don't believe in it but why angst. You have no control anyway.

Kate if your mind is messed and this is the bigger problem, illness as you call it how then do you fix a broken mind with a broken mind? Seems like a circular reference in Excel. I am not trying to call you out just genuinely curious as to the logic.

It's a reference to Kierkegaard and his philosophy. He used the word angst a lot.

"People understand me so little that they do not even understand when I complain of being misunderstood."
—Søren Kierkegaard

Interesting, kind of like the mind looking to the mind to solve problems created by the mind. If you go to battle with the mind you'll be at war forever.

I believe I drank a few fancy words out of existence in my brain, but the essence of them is still stored in there somewhere... sometimes its a little strange, I'm not sure if I've learned certain things or deduced them independently. Both, most likely.

When confronted with 'Safety is an illusion...' some will actually argue with you for their various 'reasons'. My wife responds like the cool cucumber she is. She'll just say 'so?'

Attachment 20153

OP's original question has morphed into the question of powerlessness, where we already have a perfectly good thread in the other forum on the same topic.

Somehow, the question of one's powerlessness over a self destructive behaviour is described as our inability to change forces majeure, or acts of God, like major cataclysmic weather events. Or powerlessness over the results of mutating DNA inside our bodies. I don't think these comparisons are apt in the slightest, and are unfair to victims of typhoon haiyan or uterine cancer.

I do believe that we can change harmful behaviours by efforts of will and learning. We can use our brains to change harmful thinking patterns, and then to change the harmful behaviours. Children do this all the time as they grow up, and it is saddening to think that we have somehow lost this ability as adults.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...qYlxTYUxgu2BTZ

Keep on truckin', Mr Natural.

Fresh start post the link to the other OP so we can continue the discussion there. I find the topic fascinating.

The mind does have different states.

If you see a method as urge surfing, then you use the minds ability to look at it self. So even if your emotions and urges are sick, you can chose to identify with the introspection part of the mind and not react on the emotions and urges.

I think in team you can heal the sick part that way.

Kierkegaard did not live that much, he was very withdrawn and detached person, he even ran from his finance before the wedding He had a deep understanding of how difficult or even absurd the demands to a happy life is. We are to live trusting and committed in a world that is unpredictable and ever changing.

If we withdraw from life it faints away and looses its meaning if we commit to it we are vulnerable to be hurt.

The angst is there.

Thanks - I went over to the other thread - more in line with where I was going.

I think addiction is a disease like diabetes. You did not ask for it but you still have take responsibility for it or you will eventually die. Exactly like diabetes. Addiction see in this context very much fits the disease concept. We drink and do drugs because we are drunks and addicts. No sad tale of your child hood or how your first lover left you out of the blue. Those are not the reason you drink and do drugs. You have an illness. A complex one that encompasses your body , mind and spirt. But no matter what you believe, it's rather a moot point. You're still responsible if you want to live a decent life

As I understand it, the new DSM-V gets rid of the characterization of addiction as a "disease," characterizing it instead as a mental health "disorder." I also understand that the original characterization of it as a disease was adopted by the AMA as a means of obtaining funding for treatment. It also serves to reduce the stigma associated with addiction, in an effort to increase research dollars for treatment and to make it easier for addicts to feel OK about seeking treatment. All good intentions. Characterization of addiction as a disease can also make it easier for non-addicts to deal productively and effectively with addicts in their lives, instead of taking the bad behavior that is often symptomatic of addiction personally and reacting with anger and hostility (which doesn't help anyone). I don't think the characterization is entirely accurate, but as a practical matter, it can be very helpful in expanding treatment options, compassion, and understanding.

Excellent thoughts, Seekinggrowth. Your observations are spot on and very timely for me right now.

This was posted several days ago, but my reaction is that people have to make it work for them, whatever "it" is. A lot of people have a hard time with "God," but they still manage to go to AA. I don't know what these people do. I think there's a variety. Some people probably allow it to slide off and just pretend they're hearing what THEY want the word "God" to sound like. Some people actually do figure out what their higher power actually is. I suppose the same thing could be done with "disease." Some people probably think of it as a metaphor in order to stand hearing it, while other people insist on hearing it literally and believe that it really is that. And this is a really contentious issue with society at large, which doesn't understand what addiction is and assume that people are just making crummy choices and being immoral or lazy; whatever. When you look at the word "disease," you can also see more than one way of looking at it. Are diseases always ugly? Do they always kill? Is there nothing good that can be experienced while having a disease, 100% of the time? I don't think so. A person isn't always 100% awful just because they are an addict either. It all depends on how you look at things.

Another thing that comes up is conversations is that alcoholics learn how to grow up. That's not going to go over very well all the time either.

Other people will insist you must do AA, others have a range of perspective and don't get peeved over suggestions that you can do something else. This is partly why people love the saying about the rule 52 or whatever it is (not to take yourself so seriously, etc.).

We all have to find ways to put up with things and see and hear what we know we need to keep us going on the right path. The path we need is the one that keeps us happy and comfortable in our sobriety and not using alcohol, drugs, chemicals.

Wonderful post, Toronto68. I have been reading much food for thought on this thread and am learning a lot. I do not go to AA or any support group. I am very alone in this except for SR here and it is so helpful to me to get others thoughts on this complicated subject. Thank you so much.

Thanks Joe Nerv
 

Joe, I can't thank you enough for all your words. I agree with every one of your comments. I'd like to sign up to receive all your posts and blogs. I sobered up 2 yrs 4 months ago without AA. Just attended my first AA meeting last week for my sister in law and had issues with some of the 12 steps. The first one declaring that I am powerless. I believe we can manifest with our words and I don't want to manifest powerlessness or negative beliefs about myself. However, the reality is that once I take that first drink, my resolve to control it was gone and I could not just have one. While my life didn't derail, hit the skids or even come close to unraveling, the memories of my alcoholic father are burned in my heart that I will never choose any addiction over my family, my health or my well being. It was pretty easy for me to decide that it wasn't working for me and I had to give it up for life. So I did. It was a choice for me and I have never looked back. I didn't make a big deal about it, didn't announce it for months. I had to process what I was doing and why and it took about 6 months for me to admit to myself that I had a serious problem that would only get worse if I continued to drink any amount of alcohol. No one in my family thought I was an alcoholic. They observed I was drinking more than I used to and thought I should cut back, but I was so afraid of being a drunk that I never let it spiral to the point of no return.

I went my only AA meeting last week and got a resounding applause, a 2 year coin and lots of questions about how I did it. I responded that I was fed up with it so I quit. Then I decided to google AA, read the cult comments, the negativity about it. Some things bothered me at the meeting, like having to say your name and I'm alcoholic. I would prefer not to introduce myself that way. And it loses meaning when it is said over and over and over. Also I am not defined by alcohol. It isn't who I am. It is what I did for a period of time in my life. So I struggle with that negative identification with self. I agree Joe Nerv, much of the world is insane and to say otherwise is denial. What I don't like about AA is the idea that we are all diseased, all powerless and all have to turn to a higher power when some don't believe in those things. I happened to quit drinking on my own, no sponsor or AA. I read a lot of books, watched a lot of Super Soul Sundays, shared with my family what I was going through and have had so many Aha moments, I can't keep track. I didn't pray. But I found myself connected to the spiritual world via a Shaman and now believe in a higher power universe that works with me and me for it. I have no doubt my higher power is guiding me through this process and I am open and excited about all that awaits me.

I lost a close family member to sudden cardiac death 4 months sober and it was a shock. He was a doctor, 60, and in good health. 5 months later, my husband had a stroke and lost all his memory for a day but fully recovered. Those situations helped me accept that we are all going to die and we can only live in the moment, something I want to do for the rest of my life, completely sober and present. I love being sober. The thought of getting buzzed or having a drink holds no allure to me. And trust me, the death and stroke of my closest loved ones gave me the sense that being sober and able to grieve and process all that was happening was very empowering.

Because I was taking stock of my behavior, I faced the fact that I have a shopping and spending addiction that spiraled out of control when I quit drinking. Now I am dealing with that head on and resisting the urge to buy shoes I don't need and spend money for the fun of it. It was out of control and it is "the" biggest addiction battle of my life. I am determined and committed to face it like I did alcohol. I will do what I have to do to remain financially solvent, if that means avoiding malls, leaving credit cards and money at home and not using paypal except for necessary purchases. It is much more difficult than giving up alcohol for me. Because shopping and spending is all around me and part of my female DNA. I love Gary Zukav's approach to addiction because he identifies all addictions as being the same, really a matter of the mind needing an escape and becoming addicted to escape. When we fully comprehend what we are doing, how much we are choosing the escape route, we then can make different choices. Choosing that addiction is not the path to true happiness and fulfillment. Whatever your addiction is, face it head on and find a better way of dealing with the hole in your soul. Conquering addiction is the most empowering amazing experience one can undertake. I believe we are put here for a purpose and many of us have this struggle with addiction.

I don't like saying I am powerless because I feel I am very powerful. I am powerful to choose to not drink, to live in the present moment, to show up for myself and my family. One thing I question about AA is their dealing with the addictive personality and how one often trades one self destructive addiction for another. I happen to know some recovering alcoholics who are killing themselves with food, sex, spending, tobacco, etc but declaring themselves well on their way to recovery. But i've only been to one meeting so what do I know?

Disease or not
 

I don't feel alcoholism is a disease. My beliefs are it is a chemical reaction in the brain, set off by the choice to take the first drink. People who have addictive personalities are prone to stronger brain reactions and become addicted easily. It doesn't just show up there on its own, no more than heroine.

Diabetes is a failing organ of the body. It got diseased through many processes, some of which can be diet, some are inherited, some are just bad luck. I think some alcoholics LOVE their booze and some don't. And it is the ones who don't love it or fall out of love that decide to make the choice that they will not drink ever again. I honestly think once you see it for what it is, a nasty killer of life, it loses its hold over you. But you have to make the choice that you cannot drink ever again because you cannot control it once you start. Can a diabetic chose their organ to work properly and stop taking their medicine? I think not. Not a good comparison to me. But that is just my two cents and not very popular with AA, I know.

Not to wade too deep in this but I find that sometimes going back to definitions helps.

Disease- a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, esp. one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.

Personally I think there is some disorder of structure that predisposes some to become addicted. Whether it is a deficiency of dopamine receptors or "a chemical reaction in the brain, set off by the choice to take the first drink," it is absolutely not a weakness of character or resolve.

The way alcoholism is viewed by many reminds me a lot of what you often see in mental health. Any disease of the brain is viewed and judged differently than any other part of the body.

Regardless, it is an interesting and worthy discussion and there is a lot of good literature out there for those that want to dive deeper.

In the end, I like the diagnosis, Alcohol Dependent, in Remission.

I like the description alcohol dependent as well and that is how I would characterize my drinking. My father was extremely dependent and actually told my family that we should never ask him to choose his children over alcohol because we "the kids" would lose. I was 9 YO. He said that his beer kept him happy and that he loved it at the end of the day and no one would stand in his way. I cannot fathom this mentality but I grew up with this and knew that alcohol had this affect on some individuals. And then I married an alcoholic and divorced him due to verbal abuse. I was a non drinker to this point.

At the age of 64, my father was arrested, went into rehab and sobered up for the last 3 years of his life. I was able to find know him sober.

I started drinking socially after my second marriage and really only got out of control with stresses of step children and family issues. Years went by and I could feel it gradually increasing. And then about 5 years ago, I took ambien before bedtime and stayed up for another glass of wine and that changed it all. I didn't even know how much I drank because the cumulative affect of the two was something I had never experienced before. This went on for two years, drinking a couple glasses of wine in the evening, taking my ambien, then staying up and drinking more wine. I had a few episodes of taking more ambien and not knowing it. I fear there will be many accidental deaths due to mixing these two than anything out there. This is when my family got concerned and urged me to stop mixing it The empty bottles in the morning were undeniable and I actually started hiding them. I don't think I would have ever drank that much had I not been under the influence of the ambien. But either way, I had to stop as I was afraid I would OD or ruin my life. So the long and short is that I am sober now and free of alcohol. I was alcohol dependent but don't feel I am now. However, I know I can't drink one drink and stop there so I don't drink. Maybe some people have a disease but I don't feel I do.

I quote: "The is one thing that surely guarantees failure...contempt prior to investigation".
Insanity is doing the thing that is killing you over and over and convincing yourself (this is where the disease part comes in) that it will be different this time. Like sticking your hand into a hot flame believing this time it will not burn you. "Scientifically" when the alcoholic is wired up to an eeg (brain wave activity reader) and shown a photo of booze; the thing lights up like a xmas tree. Normal brains don't react that way. Even the AMA has agreed and classified it as a disease. No one however can or will convince the individual. Booze (and drugs)will do that and beat up a person "till we are willing to be reasonable" as is said in the BB
Having said all that..or myself once I had a drin I became thirsty and too much was never enough.

Before you jump on the AMA bandwagon, I would look at the origin of the AMA's declaration and its history with AA. Look at Marty Mann to understand how it came to be and you will find that it had more to do with obtaining public funding for private rehab centers than any doctor type medicine. In 2003, $21 BILLION dollars were spent in the US on alcoholism treatment. I would say she did a great job.

Why anyone would believe they don't have any control over pouring alcohol down their throat is beyond my farthest reaches of comprehension.

Its not a wild guess to conclude that people will believe what is most comfortable to them and will defend it to the death.

The ama has now declared obesity a disease. just a little food for thought

It was hard for me to get over the idea that we were powerless over addiction and needed the intervention of some higher power to stay clean and sober. Even after I left the program, I thought it was impossible that anyone other than "god" could help me.

But once I did get over it, I was able to get help from people. I could not do it alone and I did not believe in god. But I will be always grateful to my non-addict friends who talked me through some rough nights. They did not know that we were all supposed to be powerless, so they stood by me believing that they could help.

And they did.

Everyone of us resists significant change, no matter whether it's for the worse or for the better. Our body, brain, and behavior have a built-in tendency to stay the same within rather narrow limits, and to snap back when changed. This condition of equilibrium, this resistance to change, is called homeostasis. Homeostasis doesn't distinguish between what you would call change for the better and change for the worse, it resist all change. :egypt:

I have the power to NOT take the first drink or pill, etc. Once I start, I lose the power of choice, the addiction takes over.

Same as a food allergy or drinking poison. I can choose not to eat or drink the stuff, but once I do...then it has power over me.

The program helps me get to a place where I am no longer tempted, weak, or obsessed with that first one that gets me into trouble.

From my own experience the A.A. programme works for me and works for others too. I suffer with the delusion that I can safely drink and, once I start drinking, I can't stop. So I am powerless over alcohol in that respect. I have also found it helpful to have a daily 'to do' list that helps me stay away from alcohol.

My point is this; if others find that they can stay off alcohol/drugs/etc using a non A.A. related method then I sincerely hope it works. A.A.ers tend to believe A.A. works for them because it does :)

So why weren't you successful in your attempts to moderate?
Weak will?

DB, I think you would agree that control over our actions while sober is a whole nuther ballgame than controlling our actions after a big snootfull of booze. Your question about ability to moderate seems to miss that distinction.
This seems to be a popular statement, that once we start drinking, we can't stop. I guess I just take the easier softer way now and never drink in the first place. I think this is what caboblanco is referring to.