FT

Hi TU,

This thread helps me a lot, even though I quit drinking over 20 years ago. It is a source of support for me, and sometimes I can support other people with my experience that quitting drinking can be done by capturing the inner strength that resides in all of us. I realize that's not the "mantra" of AVRT, but it's how I view things.

I say, "right on!" for what you do here. There are more of us out here than is realized in the recovery community because many of us go about our business of recovery quite silently.

Thank you for stepping up and being a resource -- one that is badly needed, and a HUGE cornerstone for recovery resources.

FT

wpainterw

Terminally Unique: It occurs to me that the insights of Rational Recovery may have relevance to broader aspects of society. Just as, within each person, there is a "beast" which attempts to influence the more rational and conscious parts of the mind, and a risk that the "beast" may in some cases control more and more of an addict's behavior, so is it possible that "beast like" influences may achieve control of an entire society, dragging it down into a darker and more primitive phase? An obvious illustration might be Hitler's Germany during the 1930's and up until 1945. Is it not true that various top officials, like Himmler, were drawn to some of the darker aspects of Teutonic myths and sought to create a cult like atmosphere within the SS? Is this not the "beast" acting on a larger canvas? What about Rwanda? The list goes on and on.

W.

FT

Hi wpainterw,

I realize your question was for TU, but I wondered something about this, too. I like your analogy. Another analogy I like is Eckhart Tolle's reference to the "pain body", mentioned in "A New Earth" and his other books. Tolle talks about how the "dense" and dark nature residing in all of us can be all the way from dormant to dominant, and how this negative energy is attracted to the pain bodies of others around this. I have seen this to be true as a negative, and even violent, tone can spread within a group.

I do think the Beast is like this. I have seen it at work in addicts many times, where the tendency to use or drink is exponentially greater if there is more than one active Beast, or "pain body", in the vicinity.

FT

Terminally Unique

Yes, and Trimpey has at times alluded to the mingling of Beasts, which will feed off each other to collectively advance a common cause at any cost. AVRT is the idea that you are a free moral agent in the body of an animal, divided against base urges. This is a very ancient idea, of course, with many parallels in religion, art, and literature. Personally, I view addiction as a reversion to a feral state, in which the addicted person becomes driven more by instinct than reason, much as a domestic cat would revert to its base instincts if forced to fend on its own.

Last Call

I concur FT, I have been lurking on this thread for some time. I have tried numerous approaches over the years, with some lengthy periods of sobriety. A few weeks ago I chose to drink again, and a few days ago I quit again. Looking to answer the usual question "what will I do different this time?", because of this thread I got a copy of RR-TNC off ebay for $5 shipped.

My book mark is at page 133 now, the Big Plan process. I am not trying to re-ignite anything, but I can see using AVRT to manage cravings without making some Big Plan that is something of a sticking point, or a source of some anxiety for me. And I can certainly see that not having one would be not really committing to the approach. Sort of like when I did the first 3/12 steps and decided I didn't like that approach.

Anyway I'll continue to work my way through the book and I will continue to follow the discussion here. I appreciate everyone's participation and input.

LC

Terminally Unique

Addicted people have always been drawn to one another, and most addicted people, or at least their Beasts, want to get other people hooked as well. Their Beasts effectively feed off each other, creating a synergistic effect. I'm sure we've also all seen or experienced the common scenario whereby if one addicted person in a group decides to quit, the others will actively try to prevent it.

FT

Yes, that is so true.

I don't want to start an argument here about recovery programs, but one disadvantage to them is that they group formerly active addicts (and some active ones, too) all together under circumstances to advance recovery, but in some cases actually dismantles it.

I strongly believe the reason is the Beasts all being stirred up by others so close by. When I was going to meetings years ago, I always avoided parking behind this particular building the meetings were housed in because of the drug deals going on in the back. Dealers there knew who was at the meeting, and the folks who were forced to be there against their will were often the ones in the parking lot making the deals.

This was a bad situation, and I know that not all groups have this problem. But the ones in the inner city I went to really did. I think a lot of groups are aware of this potential and actively discourage it.

Ft

Terminally Unique

It is generally common knowledge among active drug users that when in a new town without a suitable connection, this is one way to find one. There was even a depiction of this in the show "Breaking Bad" from AMC, so one may reasonably conclude that many in the general population, and certainly the police, know this as well.

Terminally Unique

There is no way to successfully prove that you won't ever be able to drink/use again without suffering the usual bad consequences. The Beast naturally exploits this fact, resulting in the common failed attempts at moderation or a return to drinking/using, time and again. The Big Plan of AVRT is based partly upon logic and reason, but that alone is often not enough, since there may never be enough evidence to fully support a decision of lifetime abstinence. The Big Plan is mostly intuitive, and since the Beast will fight it every step of the way, effectively experienced as a leap of faith.

FT

Personally, I think the "Big Plan" is important.

I didn't know about that stuff when I quit. But I had to take a strong STAND against any further drinking behavior in myself, and when I proclaimed myself (silently, in my head, mind you) to be a non-drinker, I meant what I said. From then on, the decision was very simple, because there WERE no more decisions to make.

That doesn't' mean it was EASY. It was probably 3 years before I stopped thinking about drinking, and before I no longer needed the daily self-pep-talk that I had made the right choice. But once the decision was made, that was IT. DONE.

That's how I perceive the "Big Plan". To me, change of heart simply means the plan was never solid to start with. It's a tough decision to make. But it can be done.

FT

Runhappy

I love this thread and I am very grateful to TU for keeping it going and for the dedication it takes to do so.

I absolutely believe in Rational Recovery and AVRT and there are not many places to find ongoing info on it. (I am too cheap to pay to become a member on the official site)

I ordered his book on eating and have read the first few chapters. I figure it will supplement the AVRT I use on opiates and I would love to lose the 10 pounds I gained while taking opiates.

Thanks all who post in this thread!!!!

soberlicious

I had also made a big plan (without knowing it) and did not drink for 10 years. I was very happy during that time and even though I was fairly young, married a drinker, and had drinking friends, I never missed it at all. Now I recognize all the justifying, rationalizing, etc about deciding to drink again was simply beast activity. Unfortunately that reversal of intent was a seven year bender. Again, I quit in an AVRTish way without knowing it and it's been a few years now. Learning about this after applying it has been interesting.

Now I know more. Knowledge is power. There won't be another reversal.

I'm not going to say I haven't learned alot from other programs, groups, even treatment. But the things I've learned are more about living life well, not quitting the booze. For quitting the booze, what works the best is...well, quitting the booze.

Terminally Unique

Ah, but your Beast certainly did.

soberlicious

LOL indeed she did...she always will miss it. That's ok for her. That's just how she rolls

wpainterw

Further, as to Beast like behavior as a social phenomenon, this goes way back to the beginning of history and surfaces in religious circles (devil worship, black masses, demonic possession), literature (e.g. Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness") and politics (the Nazi movement, Rwanda, Uganda and other instances of genocide). An affinity between lizard brains. Interesting that among the first they go after are the so called "intellectuals" and the beast's greatest enemy resides somewhere in the cerebral cortex. The beast needs the conscious mind since it is itself inarticulate, but it would rather enslave it. This of course is what happens in addiction.

W.

soberlicious

wpainterw, as FT mentioned already, Eckhart Tolle discusses this phenomenon at length in his writings. He calls it the "collective pain-body". It is fascinating (albiet frightening) how this works.

oakwood

I'm not sure, either, but I certainly seem to making it that way. Torturing myself, I'll say. It's totally ridiculous.

oakwood

I'm much older, but that's basically the decision I have to make. Either do it or don't.

oakwood

TU, I read about this question in the book and now I can't find it. Can you point me to it or explain the meaning behind this thought?

wpainterw

Soberlicious: Thanks. I forgot to add to my list of places, Abu Ghraib- that is the alarming incidents in the Iraqi prison where U.S "interrogation" techniques got out of control and degenerated into sadistic sexuality. What was particularly frightening to me was to realize how even the most civilized looking people can have dark and frightening potentialities which they may be entirely unaware of. Alcohol and other addictive substances trigger these depths and, as the addiction progresses, the "beast" can more or less take over. The amazing thing is that this degenerative process can ever be reversed. The downward slope gets steeper and more slippery with the passage of time.

W.