Hey basIam
what about the contention that
very human by nature has the POTENTIAL to become addicted I agree with that and if you look at all cultures across time mostly they develop some form of mind altering substance.

Happy New Year
Nah dinnae you worry I'm NO oan on the wrong bus pal ! :c031:

By nervous system, I was referring to the whole of my personality, and maybe my sympathetic, parasympathetic, limbic... whatever... the WHOLE thing. Some people don't like that loss of control that occurs with booze, pills, weed, whatever... I did... Some people may like it, but somehow they inherently know that it's something to be limited to social events, or... alone times with a partner... not me, I lost the internal controls and gave myself permission to do it whenever. I justified, denied, rationalized.... Another person might not have... was it nature, nurture, or was it the sum total of my being?

So when I say "nervous system" I guess I am speaking to the whole of me, behavior, value systems, self image, whatever....

For that reason, I don't expect some amazing breakthrough in terms of the treatment of alcoholism and addiction... maybe prevention and awareness... but that would almost have to start in the nursery...

Mark

I'm just curious, do you want to quit drinking or are you just trying to put together a working definition of an alcoholic?

Personally, I've never seen a definition save someone's liver or life.

All the best.

by way of the proof, alcoholism is not addiction

I'm all for giving someone the facts about their condition, and sharing my experience with the progressive nature of alcoholism, but really, 5 pages of trying to convince someone to stop drinking? Hmmmm. I think alcohol itself is the great persuader.

Back to English Daphne, the bus I was referring to is Alcoholism, from what I have read you seem to have all the symptoms. You are unwilling to go to AA, (the shame of seeing someone who knows you), to get round that you may wish to have a look at The Book Alcoholics Anonymous, in that you may meet someone you know, Yourself.

Said with Friendship

Yeah, I'm there with you. This is exactly the same as my "voice of alcohol" trying to convince me not to drink. The problem is she's got a whole medical community behind her feeding the cunning deceit. That made this thread a bit more interesting.

But in the end, if one is not ready to get sober, then there's nothing we can do.

I gave the best advice I have, and so did a lot of other great people on this board. Time to move along, I think.

-Goat

Right get you now Mark and sounds like me too!

Hi there
apologise if the thread has gone on too long
I did not view it as people trying to persuade me to stop drinking. I am well aware that decision is wholly mine
Being new I enjoyed the debate, really did and thought I was exploring different angles with different folk.. Maybe I have got the purpose of this board wrong?
Again apologise if this frustrated you

Hi there

apology if this thread is too long and drifted off
I am new here and maybe don't understand protocol
I have really enjoyed sharing the different issues with people
p.s. Why do you talk about alcohol as if it has a life of its own? a voice an ability to persuade people?

apologies again for frustrating you and Goat
I have not seen this thread as people trying to persuade me . I viewed it as healthy exploration of the whole issue:c020:

Hi unintoxicated



I thought the discussion re labels etc was all part of the process in recovery- the defining your problem stage?

Oh, no need for apologies, daphne, and I hope I didn't offend. I hope the conversation has been informative for you. It can go on as long as people have some interest in it.

I spend a lot of time reaching out and working with newcomers to AA. I've just learned that efforts to convince someone are rarely effective. Alcohol does a much better job of bringing someone to their own conclusions. I can simply lay out the facts as I know them and offer a solution. I've learned that giving someone the dignity to discover their own truth is ultimately more beneficial to them, even if it feels better to me sometimes to preach at them from some place of supposed knowledge.

I hope you find your own truth, daphne.

Goat
maybe I am thick but you have lost me here

It depends on the person, if the labels hinder one's recovery then one would be wise to ignore them and instead focus on the solution to the problem rather than the stage of the problem.

Daphne about 4 or 5 years before I quit I too swore there was no way I would EVER put drinking ahead of my family, YET I wound up doing just that!

My story extreme? No not at all, there are people who continue to drink no matter what, the whole time still denying they have a problem. The finally quit when they are 6 feet under!!!

There are far more alcoholics who die from thier alcoholism then those who recover, denying the problem right up until it is too late.

Daphne there are a ton of dead alcoholics who had their loyal friends & family at their bedside as the blood ran from every pore in their body in the final day or 2 of thier liver totally shutting down.

BTW Daphnie, I had a loving caring family, up until the last year or 2 of my drinking they were there for me, but they backed off a distance once they realized that no matter how much they begged me to cut back or quit that I was in such a state of DENIAL that I refused to even listen to them.

I can tell you this, if I had called anyone in my family or friends (I had left) and asked them to take me to detox they would all have been there for me in a heart beat.

The only reason my wife was going to leave me is she did not want the kids that were still living at home to watch me drink myself to death.

BTW I only had one DUI in my 40 years of drinking, I have never been in jail, I never lost a job due to my drinking, always had multiple vehicles, at least one new one all the time.

I was in a good paying job in the IT industry working a classified government contract.

Daphne, I was very lucky, when I quit I had not YET lost anything material, I was VERY close to losing my family.

I had a moment of clarity that allowed me to have all of the denial of my drinking removed, I saw all of the YETs if I did not stop drinking.

I was like you, I had (still do) it all, an awesome well paying job, a large home, nice trucks & cars, my family & friends, traveled a lot as well.

I was just like you for several years "Oh I am to smart for that!".

"I am just fine, I do not have a problem, look at me!!!! I have it all!!!"

You claim to be in the medical profession correct?

How can one be in the medical proffession and deny hundreds of long term scientific & medical studies that indicate that alcoholism is a disease?

Are you beneath having a disease? My God what if you were a diabetic, would you deny all medical and scientific knowledge about diabetes and its treatment and just keeping on downing the sugars and refusing to take insulin?

Reread what I said above........................... now let us just say that alcoholism is just a bad habit, forget the disease thing. Now you are seeing your liver beginning to go down hill, but you could care less right?

Okay smoking, another habit, on that we all agree on, or we are reading this from a mental ward, do you smoke?

hi daphne, i for one have found this thread extremely interesting, it seems to me though you love alcohol but it is damaging your health, you also want to live right? so the only solution is to stop drinking, you cant do both,

i was told i had a fatty liver and it scared me to death, much as i used to love alcohol i had to say 'ta ta' as i would rather live, i just had to find a way to live sober and i have, i just wish i hadnt compromised my health for so long, all for the sake of a liquid that is so sweet its a wonder i have any teeth left! i dont know what i ever saw in it now,

[/QUOTE] QUOTE]

Hi there

No I am not a medical professional , never said I was, my background is social psychology and I used to work with "problem" families many of whom were "alcoholic or drug addicts
I have never suggested I was "above" or too good for anything
I just do not think seeing drinking as a disease does not promote personal agancy and enourages a victimn mentality
My grandfather was a vagrant and my estranged father ended up a homeless drinker. Even with this history I do not feel it contributes to why how or when I drink, that is my choice. Similarly I do not think alcohol has some supernatural powers which can perusde, con or trick me into drinking.
I have also been trying to get across that there are varying degrees of drink problems. It does NOT progress in same way for everyone. Not every problem drinker loses it all , not all drinkers end up dying a lonely and painful death and not all drinks need AA.
I have never smoked but did other drugs in the past

Thanks hun
appreciate your comments. I know I need to change you are right
Just need ideas on how to change 30 years of habits well ingrained!

Forgive me but I am curious:
Are you genuinely interested in finding out at what stage of alcoholism you might be at or if you are at all? Or are you just debating the different degrees of drinking and opinions because you enjoy debating?
If you need support and advise, SR is a wonderful place for exactly that.
Please stop for a just little while and read. Read how many people have become desperate in their search for help and how many are being helped.
Whatever you decide, I hope your health will recover.