My Friend
You nor any other person on this earth can save her. She must be the one with her creator. There is a saying and it's not PC, but one I sobered up with.

Some of us have to die for others to live.

I'm praying she lives. Holding her hand just pushes her bottom lower and lower. Pray from a distance that she will decide for herself. We always want to be hero and fix the issue, but this isn't a flat tire.

AG

"Holding her hand just pushes her bottom lower and lower." This is true. Please please please remember this quote. I held my STBXAH's hand for so long, that it finally got to the point where it looked as if he had NO bottom and the only bottom was death. In fact, he nearly died. If I had released him earlier and forced him to bear the unpleasant facts of having to be responsible for himself (and me for myself), both me and he would have been saved from a lot of misery.

Ah yes. "I know of people who beat addiction...". I used to tell myself that there were people out there (in the world) who "beat addiction" cold turkey. Etc. Even my ex used to say this. He said his father used to smoke cigarettes and one day just quit cold turkey. What he DID NOT say that was his father then started drinking... then he quit "cold turkey" and started smoking weed -- that's called a relapse (or two). And then he relapsed onto something else, and something else... and when he wasn't using the behavior that got him using a substance, was still there. This guy then started blaming his immediately family for the fact that he could not get his life together, and he would often go bonkers and beat people up. Seriously people ended up in hospital. Of course I wasn't told the story like this, but hindsight is 20-20. So yeah, I was told bits and pieces here and there, and one of the bits was "my father quit his addiction to cigarettes cold turkey". Some people replace their addiction to a narcotic or alcohol with religious practice, which is, in some forms, a type of "addiction". So there is no guarantee that the addict, when recovering, won't quit you after they find god... because you were part of their old persona. They self-actualize into different people. Addicts often have a fragile sense of self.

The other thing is... (and this is important), I think you need to allow the people you love to have agency. I think you need to respect their boundaries. They need to be able to make their own decisions and to act on their own. Apart from trusting that my ex was not an addict, and believing his story about PTSD, and trying (unwisely) to help him manage his PTSD (in a very co-dependent way), I actually did give my ex "some" agency -- I never removed his drugs from him. But I think he should have had full agency. So basically, I should never have paid any of his fines or bills or whatever. I should not have bought him clothing or haircuts or books or taken him to the movies. He should have been responsible for his life. He's not a child.

Neither is your ex.

It's not loving to act like "the man" and "look after her", that is paternalistic, that is (whether you intend it or not) about power.

Do not grieve a role that was never yours to play. Or grieve it, but then fill that hole in your heart by being your own parent.

Her ex friend is very wise. Listen to her friend. She's seeing the forest for the trees. I would love to contact my ex but that would do nothing. Nothing good comes out of throwing yourself at someone who actually doesn't love you anymore. I don't even want to hear about my ex... I don't need to know what he's doing, who he's seeing, where he's living. It's too painful. I start feeling sick when I think about him too much. Physically sick. Mentally sick. I miss and love him but I have to move on.

I think you do too.
Please look after yourself.

sylvie,

Regarding your last post:

I guess I just meant exactly what I said...when you know you want to marry someone you just know. She was always asking me when I was going to do it, and I planned it for months. It fell exactly on our 3 and 1/2 year anniversary. I knew at this point that I wanted to be with her. It was the following year that the alcoholism and changing behavior only popped up.

Regarding the comment of her friends noticing it earlier in her life...When we met, she was not drinking all day every day. We would only have drinks on dates, or when making dinners, etc...not all the time by any means. But her friends were concerned because she used to party with them very hard. She was a tiny girl taking in too much, and would not be able to walk sometimes because she was too drunk. This was concerning for her closest friends because it happened a number of times. I didn't know this until more recently, and only when I spoke with some of the friends of her past did they say that she was borderline at points. Again, I didn't know. And I didn't see this behavior for 3 years together. But demons are deep in people, and numbing them due to alcohol may have been her method of squelching it.

To address a more recent comment from Ophelia...I do agree one hundred percent. And from what I know of the other two people I mentioned, they tried to keep things in check with regard to that...but they are both devout religious now, and that may be filling the addictive void. So maybe you are right, its just replacement.

As to speak towards my Aex, I do not know how she replaces, but she was working out a lot in rehab, and when we went through the various detox treatments with her, she always took working out very seriously, and did lots after each bout. So, maybe that was her replacement, until the urge of alcohol came storming back... As of right now, it appears as though it is still both again, from what I know...

Joel - if you're serious about getting beyond this than you need to stop touching the hot fire & asking why it burns. Puppy pics = passive aggressive manipulation; addicts are not the only ones who play head games.

Stop talking to her friends & family about her. If they (or you) can't honor that boundary, then stop talking to them about EVERYTHING. This is beyond toxic for all of you at this point.

If they still don't understand - then THEY need to start attending Al-Anon for themselves, you can't save them any more than you can save her. You have the power to disentangle yourself here & you are making a conscious choice not to. That's on YOU.

I think you are seriously romanticizing the potential for your relationship with her. In a sense, you never REALLY knew her, did you? The REAL her? The ALCOHOLIC who was too wasted to walk and you never knew it? In fact, allllll of her friends were aware of her truth except you? That person went through FIVE detoxes and I'll bet anything it was a constant slide into that degradation.... how romantic? No. Not unless that's all that you CHOOSE to see. (and you are wouldn't be the first, not by a lonnnng shot!)

Here's what I know - if you spend HALF the time examining your own life, motives & future as you do picking apart all that you'll never understand on her side of things, you could be a LOT farther in this whole process of moving on & redefining Happiness for yourself.

FireSprite!! Awesome post. Thank you

Firespirit...

I do understand where you are coming from. I know I am losing my mind over this. Please understand that I am not in a good place right now, and for some people this choice and your mentality on handling it are simple. I guess that just isn't me. I am deeply affected by this, worse than I have ever been affected by anything in my life. I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.

This is so easy for everyone else, including her. But not for me. As insane as I may sound in all my posts, I just can't find any positive in this. I am here on this forum because of what happened to me, trying to make things better, not because of choices I made. At Al-Anon last night, a lady was crying like I did when I first came in saying she is angry because she has to go to a support group. She isn't the one with the problem, and that her ex-husband should be the one who should be in a group, like AA. How I connected with her on that was that we both feel like how the hell did we get here.

I get we made the decision to be with a person who has addiction, but it doesn't make things better thinking or knowing it is over. The lack of empathy from those who hurt us, and no recognition of that has torn me and this woman apart. Where is the appreciation of the endless forgiveness, the endless love, the endless attempts to help them? Now I'm sure people will fire back and say you shouldn't expect anything from anyone, or in true love to expect nothing other than love back. But I am saying all this because as I sit in my office, I don't feel like there is anyone...and I mean anyone who hears me and or understands me in this world. I don't want to call my mom or dad, or brothers, or friends...because I always get the same thing. She did you wrong and you need to move on. Great. Let me just do that like a click of a button. No problem. (Note the sarcasm)

I feel the one person who gets me, I can't contact, I can't talk to, I can't do anything with the one person who I used to confide in. I am struggling here to find serenity, or anything positive, and people rooting each other on about "just move on" and the more blunt they can be about it really isn't helping. Its not like I'm some weak special snowflake...I just have never been so damaged before, this blow is so deep, so shattering. You read my messages, you see I am doing good things with my life, but it all doesn't mean a thing when who I am, and what I want in life, and who I shared those desires with isn't there. Doesn't care anymore (at least from what I can tell). I could say that I was one of those blind guys who "never saw it coming" and I am...that's because I thought I had someone I could count on, someone who accepted the promise to each other in the form of approaching marriage. How am I to trust anyone again? I am not that young dammit, I don't want to start a new life. Our future was planned, and she was 100% in on planning that until this damn last rehab, or when she was too drunk to participate. I keep being told I did do things wrong, with regard to her substance abuse. Well that's just damn great. I am only human for pete's sake. I am taking a ruthless inventory regarding this, and all I can come up with is the fact that in the past year, I didn't do enough courting, or special things like travel or go out to dinner, or spent my own damn money. But due to her damn drinking, I couldn't take her out, and I tried everything I could to make every day brighter with little love notes,, dancing in the kitchen, we even had a positive thought white board that we filled with thoughts and love notes...she even had a daily count down going for our wedding date right up to the day she left for rehab.

WTF guys and gals... I don't know if I can do this anymore.

I am confiding in a group of people who I don't know, and they don't even know me. I have no one to really talk to. I just want for her to know the damn pain and suffering I am going through because this, not to trick her back to me, but because she doesn't have to see it and live it each day. I feel like I've lost everything. Like I don't care about anything anymore. Like all my hard work for school and jobs is pointless. This is a nightmare I am just not waking up from. Each day, I avoid my house like the plague, because it isn't home. I dread it. I dread everything because she was woven so deeply into my life.

Make fun of me, or tell me to shut up crybaby, I don't care anymore. It isn't like I chose for this to happen. I've lost my damn way, and I don't think there's any coming back.

So all of your value & worth as a human being in this world is tied to her validation? That's an awful lot of power to put in ANYONE else's control.....

No one is poking fun or accusing you of being the only one of US to ever feel this way - TRUST ME JOEL..... your story, your emotions - we can ALL empathize. ALL of us. It's quite literally the reason we've come together in this forum, yes?

I know you feel despondent, but you HAVE GOT to get past your terminal uniqueness here man........ Imagine how it feels for those of us that are/have been where you are right now only after DECADES together & looking into the eyes of the children we're trying to save from madness?

You have got to find a way to get outside of yourself. I KNOW it's not easy but until you do, you are not going to start healing. :hug:

Who is telling you “you did things wrong regarding her addiction”? I haven’t read through the entire thread but I’m pretty sure what most here are trying to say is that nothing you did or didn’t do would have made any difference.

You’re grieving and it’s awful. Really, really awful. In a way, it's good that you’re angry now...it’s one of the big parts of the process. Denial and bargaining tend to come first, as you’ve experienced...but many of us codies get stuck there for a long, long time.

There is no one perfect way to handle the loss of a love. There isn’t even a good way. There’s just muddling through it and doing the best you can.

I’m really sorry you’re going through this.

Sending you a hug.

Well said Sylvie!

I think everyone here means well, and everyone here knows that an addict is an addict. Our qualifiers have drug us through hell and we are all in various stages of coming back from that, and don't want to see other people have to hurt as much as we have. At least that is how I feel.

Big hugs. Keep working on you!

Joel

You have every right to be pissed off. Please vent here hourly if needed.

I've uncontrollability just balled in my bed. Shook at the notion and broke me to the bone. I don't do religion but believe in God. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Can you trust us with that? We were in the dark and made the journey out of it. You can as well. Going to those Alanon meetings will help you in many different ways.


AG

i dont know how to multi quote, but:
"This is so easy for everyone else, including her. But not for me. As insane as I may sound in all my posts, I just can't find any positive in this."
so youve asked everyone involved if its easy for them? its easy for the parents to watch their child go through this??

on this:
" How I connected with her on that was that we both feel like how the hell did we get here."
im gonna type something that was said to me that really pissed me off, but it helped me tremendously:
"who allowed it to happen? who stayed in denial about what was goin on? who thought they were so powerful they could rescue someone that didnt want rescueing? this is how ya got here,tom- by staying in denial, thinking you were powerful, and allowing it to happen. i saw it a long time ago but you wouldnt listen because ya didnt want to believe it. you were an egomaniac with an inferiority complex- didnt like yourself and though rescueing someone would make ya feel better about yourself. thats how ya got here. the great fact is there IS a solution- for you."

on this:
" I feel the one person who gets me..."
huh, no one here or at al anon "gets you??? i find that hard to believe. ive read you in many other threads and in replies right here in this thread.

on this:
"just move on"
you havent gotten that here or at al anon. thats not how either work. people at BOTH places know theres much more involved then that- theres lookin inside and learning why, then working at change.


on this:
WTF guys and gals... I don't know if I can do this anymore
do what? try and think things gonna turn out all sunshine, unicorns, and rainbows with this woman?
or
keep hearing the truth- the truth from people that have been in your shoes?
or
look in your own mirror and work on that person?

on this:
I am confiding in a group of people who I don't know, and they don't even know me. I have no one to really talk to
yes, you do know us and we know you. it could be a feeling of uniqueness, could be denial, could be because youre at the beginning and havent surrendered yet,but yes, you do have someone to talk to and you have that f2f,too in al anon. maybe youre comparing and not trying to relate to others??
comments about meetings has me thinkin that.
when i decided to get sober and into AA, i didnt relate to what anyone was saying. i was still in an alcoholic fog( which you could be in a fog still). when the fog listened, i did something that didnt help- i compared their stories to mine. and what i was comparing was the actions. then i changed some. i started relating and NOT to the actions, but the thinking.it amazed me to learn those people were just like me- they had been in my shoes.
i encourage you to go to as many al anon meetings as you can. get phone numbers from people there and call em- even if its just to say hi, but i suggest ya open up.

on this:
I just want for her to know the damn pain and suffering I am going through because this, not to trick her back to me, but because she doesn't have to see it and live it each day.
resentments suck and trying to retaliate doesnt work. it wont change a dam thing anyways FOR YOU! or do you want to TRY and make her hurt too? if thats the case, shes already hurtin and it wont do YOU any good.
forgiveness is a remarkable thing- FOR ME.

on this:
It isn't like I chose for this to happen. I've lost my damn way, and I don't think there's any coming back.
who would?however, you get to chose whether youre going to start recovery or not. you get to chose to find your way.
im not sure where ya want to 'come back" to, but something i know for a fact:
if you surrender, want to heal and recover,be willing to do whatever that involves, use the suggestions from people that in your shoes- put in the footwork, eventually you will get to a point you might say,"sheewee, im glad i didnt want to "come back" becuase im at a place thats better than i could ever imagine! i love myself today and love life!"

one more thing:
im 50 years old. been single for a few years and absolutely LOVE IT.
how i got there:
1- opened up to people.
2- had a crowbar worked real hard to pop my head outta my but.
3- surrendered
4- WANTED to learn and change
5- got into action with the suggestions i was given- and some of them suggestions were delivered quite brutally. the sugarcoating and babying me wouldnt work.

and them people that gave me the message strightup? no sugar coating it?
they helped me love myself and gave me life.
i owe them greatly for that.

my happiness is an inside job and my responsibility.

Well, none of the advice seems to be working for you.

So.....keep contacting her. Get together again. Try and make it work. Let us know in six months how you are doing. You may begin to understand what everyone is telling you

I haven’t contacted her again. All I do know is nothing has changed for her. But week by week I do keep chugging away at the PhD. Is it not ok to have a moment of weakness and feel real crummy? I said you can say whatever you want to me, so please feel free...

She hasn’t reached out to me, and I know that it is better that I don’t at least until she seeks treatment. In fact, I’m just teetering on emotions and that’s why I can’t hold my thoughts back and post them on here. As I said, she hasn’t reached out to me, so until she does now I’m just kind of cruising...

I’ll listen to the other posters tho and vent when I need to.

I found this (on this forum, I think) many years ago.
It re-appeared when I found some old journals. I'd love to give credit to the author, but I don't know who it is. If anyone does know, please illuminate us. Anyway, it bears re-posting.

Now try saying this to this person: "I leave you free to be yourself, to think your thoughts, to indulge your taste, follow your inclinations, and behave in any way that you decide is to your liking." The moment you say that you will observe one of two things: your heart will resist those words, and you will be exposed for the clinger and exploiter that you are. Or your heart will pronounce the words sincerely and in that very instant all control, manipulation, exploitation, possessiveness, and jealousy will drop.

And you will notice something else: The person ceases to be special and important to you. He or she becomes important the way a sunset or a symphony is lovely in itself, the way a tree is special in itself and not for the fruit or the shade that it can offer you. Your beloved will then belong not to you but to everyone else or to no one like the sunrise and the tree. Test it by saying those words again: "I leave you free to be yourself..." In saying those words you have set yourself free. You are now ready to love. For when you cling, what you offer the other in not love but a chain by which both you and your beloved are bound. Love can only exist in freedom. The true lover seeks the good of his beloved which requires especially the liberation of the beloved for the lover.

"I leave you free to be yourself, to think your thoughts, to indulge your taste, follow your inclinations, and behave in any way that you decide is to your liking."

Thank you Velma. I take that to heart. I understand the words, and realize I do have plenty to work through. I forget if I have mentioned, but I do only want her to be happy and healthy.

The unfortunate side of this is that I know she is not...and I’m sure after her fling blew up, she is likely really unhappy because now she has no one but mom. From what I was told, this person is acting in her own world, which is far different then “dancing like no one is watching.”

I do have to let her indulge, but I can’t say I approve, not that what I think matters right now. Why would I approve of her drinking herself to the point of risk of death. I always thought this world was a better place because she is in it, and still believe that. To wish for her to indulge is to wish bad for her...

The predicament is odd. But none the less, I understand the loving nature of the quote, to love freely, not bound. But I don’t see why it would be bad of me to fight for what I believe in IF she wasn’t an alcoholic. She is of course, and if alcohol wasn’t involved, it wouldn’t be a fight.

GoodGuy...I sent you a PM (private message). Look for a blinking black box at the top, right hand part of the page.....and, click on it.....

My AW had dated years ago and had a post-dating friendship for years, finally getting married 15 years after first meeting each other.

She had addictive tendencies before we were married (I 'excused' them, but her mother didn't, telling me point blank that she had addiction tendencies/issues before we were married).

Still married to her, but it's flickering out(she won't do anything about her addiction, claims she doesn't have any temptations anymore after being addicted for most of the years we've been married). Yeah, right...

My insight for you:

Thank God for her making the cut for you.

It doesn't feel like it right now, but I and EVERYBODY ELSE who has ever married an addict will tell you that IT DOESN'T GET EASIER AFTER MARRIAGE, AT ALL.

And be VERY thankful there are no kids involved. My four kids are scared and scarred because I chose to keep trying to see if she'll ever get serious about her recovery, when I should have cut her loose 8 years ago.

About the money?

Think of it as a bad investment. You will always make money and it doesn't have to come with all the baggage she brings with it.

It's hard but just that God there's a God who is looking out for you, so cut your losses and get onto the living side of things.

You will see it entirely different sooner than you'll realize.

Peace to you!

Yeah this is an awesome post, I think you should read it again.

Also, please forgive me for saying this Joel, but you are in grad school and this person was... what? Your intellectual equal? I mean, you call her a "tiny girl", you send her puppy pictures. Now, before you get mad, this may not at all be what you intend, so again, please forgive me for saying this, but you should not be with someone that you feel superior to (in ANY WAY) even if your "superiority" comes from you being sober and the addict being not sober. This is probably why she ran off with the guy who is a "recovering" addict. Lettuce has to be with other vegetables in the fridge. If you are not a vegetable, stay out of the crisper. They have vegetable stuff to do.

Also, the fact that you are in grad school and you have described this woman the way you have described her, and described yourself the way you have (you made allusions to her beauty, called her a "tiny girl", you said you tried to be "a man" and look after her... etc) makes me think that there's a power imbalance here that you are okay with. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm just going to put it to you: I think you have to ask yourself what you are really afraid of losing by losing her. Clearly not a partner. Are you really seeing her? Or is she a projection of something inside you...? Something unresolved... about how you identify yourself... as a man? What does "being a man" mean to you? Who are YOU without women? And also, who are you when you are with them? Are they the same person? You say that you had a happy childhood. Frankly, I don't believe that anyone has had a totally happy childhood -- we pick up dysfunctional ways of being from somewhere. I'm old enough (and screwed up enough times) to know this -- so trust me when I say this: you need to look at your parents' relationship and what their roles were. Then look in the mirror and ask yourself what your role was in your past relationships.

I mean, if someone called me a "tiny girl", I would smack them with my Germaine Greer.

Also, before you do any of this sort of work, this self-cleansing, you need to get angry at your ex in order to move on. Say this aloud: She cheated on me, took advantage of me, wasted my time, made me feel like complete cr*p, SHE'S A HORRIBLE J*RK!

Just to clarify, don't say "she's a horrible j*rk because she left me for a richer guy" (you focused on the money in your thread title), because this is not accurate. She actually left you for a guy with addiction (just like her). It's worrying if you feel your worth is threatened by another man who is, of all things, an addict. I get it, it hurts to see the people we thought loved us just dump us without a care... but it was never because the guy had more money than you, it's because she could drug/drink with him and not you.

Her brains works like this: 1. Drugs. 2. Food, sleep, water, shelter... etc. 3. Relationships. You're lucky if relationships are actually number 3. Sometimes they don't get around to taking care of number 2.