Now you are starting to “get it”!!! one foot in front of the other – keep moving forward.

Joel

I want to share a revelation I had one day after a long bitter difficult road to and after a breakup.

I realised that if I really loved my ex in the sense of what love is meant to be then I would be happy for him regardless of who he was with -if in a relationship that made him truly happy.

If I wanted to control my ex then I would only want him to be happy with me -
regardless of is he was happy or not or loved me or not (genuinely inside)

Love vs control.

Control in my case was to contour the anxiety I experienced all the time. You are with me therefore I am okay. You are not with me I am not okay.

Doesn't sound like love does it. Sounds like entrapment and no one wants to be trapped. Its a bitter pill to swallow for the ego the possibility that your loved one could be just as happy with the next person.

Are we meant to just have one single person in the whole world to fit us? Just one?

1-untreated addiction alcoholism.
2-rock bottom is death.
3-i havent heard or read of any that were successful, meaning looooong term.
4-have no expectations. untreated alcoholism/addiction cant always be predictable.best to block her number
5-yes
6-i thin you can answer that for yourself. but possible the thought,"they all cant do what i can. i am much better at rescueing."
7-many.

just my opinions there.

Wow, what a great few responses! Thank you all!

To clarify, I did mean that there are good/bad people in the world, and it appears as though the caring people on this site/forum are of good people guild.

Regarding one comment that hit home for me:
I do love this person and want whats best for her. I do understand the difference between control and love, and by no means want to force her back. However, you will see that what I am asking is what my prospects are for encountering her again, and regarding her behavior. I may say that I miss her and do want her back, but I am not saying that she HAS to come back. I understand there is a very real prospect that she may recover with this person. And although it hurts, it would be vastly better than the alternative of poor choices all the way to even potentially death...

The reason I ask so much about if she is thinking of me (aside from wanting to know if she is capable of caring), and wanting to know if I will eventually hear from her is so I can prepare my thoughts on how to handle it when/if it happens. The only, and I MEAN ONLY, way I would consider taking her back is if she was sober, realized her flaws/weaknesses, confronts the pain she caused me and others, and would do some form of therapy with me to rebuild from the ground up our relationship. I currently view this as a 50/50 chance that she will/wont come back to my life. It is impossible to say.

Ironically, all of us involved never saw this coming...and I think this proves that the majority of the situation isn't about me or her family...its about her. About her choices in the past, that she cant confront us all knowing what she has done and is doing now. Likewise, it is about her finding someone who will not judge her for being an addict (not that I ever did judge, I supported her in any form of recovery we tried, and deeply cared abut her well being), and is an addict themselves. Her being a beautiful woman can sway mens minds very easily, and I am sure this guy fell for it, and she isn't even close to telling him the whole truth of her life...her finances, and her life with me for the past 4 1/2 years. I figure if our relationship had started with lies, then it would have fallen apart much sooner. And in the case of what she is doing, I see this as only ending badly for her, but I feel awful about that...since I do love her...I just want to see her happy and healthy.

I am not ready to let go, but my counselor put it this way to me: "its not black and white, you do not need to only let her go or not, you can leave that door open, but just dont stand there waiting for her to come through it again, try opening new doors, and if she does walk back through, and the timing is right, then you can do what you want"

I look at this in a postitive light. I assume many of us have encountered a similar thing, where if a loved one steps away, it doesn't mean you hate them, it means you hate the disease. And that if they are willing to confront the demons, especially with your support, I am sure most would be willing to give it (although I know there are many cases where that is not a good option). But I am trying to build myself back up, and in time, I may be in a place of abundance to be able to consider speaking with her again if she tries to come back, when/if this all falls down for her.

However, another element of this is narcissism. And after reading deeply about it, it appears likely that she has some form of it that may have developed. If this is the case, it may be impossible to ever hear from her again as she moves from one to the next until the supply keeps drying up.

Anyways, more comments and thoughts are always helpful so please keep them coming. Thank you all!:tyou

Goodguy....I am so sorry...I accidently posted my reply, to you, on the thread of thousandwords..."He Drank Again".....
I can't remove it from there.

Drats! I have been all thumbs, today......

Hi, goodguyJoel.

Sorry to hear you are hurting - and I can relate.

I ended up having to divorce my XAH, who I loved dearly, because of relapses and irresponsible destructive behavior.

Trust me - you are lucky you don't have children with this person, count your blessings.

You deserve better!

i wouldnt call it narcissism unless the same characteristics were displayed while sober.

Tomsteve:

She did display things that could be characterized as narcissism. In fact, she used to claim that she is a manipulator. That she "only used it for good" but that she knew she had this skill. Being pretty, and outgoing, it was easy for her to get what she wanted. My brothers wife told me a story of one time where she, my ex, and my mother were all talking about someone they knew having a great success in their job, and how wonderful it was. Then my ex jumped in the conversation and said "I just did XYZ!" My brothers wife was taken aback by this saying that it was kind of unnecessary and totally out of place since the conversation wasn't about her. Unfortunately, this was common place. Since I was doing my doctorate, and she was for a long time not doing anything with herself, there were many times where she seeked attention, and spoke very highly of her skills, almost trying to prove to me that she was of equal import. I never once looked down on her or anyone for that matter for not having equal education, as I believe educations such as mine are only useful if you really know what you want to do. That being said, I think this left her feeling inadequate. When reality was, I was just a poor graduate student, with a hopeful future. Likewise, with her real estate endeavors, she imagined she would be selling million dollar houses within only a few months of developing her own company. When this failed, it was too much for her to handle and really dove into drinking.

The grandiosity of this type of thinking then, and her current situation (now, with saying she is going to move to Miami and do real estate) is very evident to me now. It is not like you would go to one of the largest real estate locations on the planet, and have instant success. She always figured she could do it on her own, and was too good to work under a boss. A realistic approach would be to join a team, and work for years developing skills and connections, then venturing off on your own. But her claims are not grounded in a realistic view of how the world, and business works.

The reason I am explaining this is not to just tear her down, it is because in addition to her sober behavior, which lots of it was "all about her," the elements of narcissism were exacerbated through alcohol. This leads me then to how she discarded me, and moved on immediately. The idea of narcissistic supply is very relevant here, where a person who doesn't get what they want (immediate gratification), can easily discard that source (me/her family) to find someone who will give her that positive view of herself that is unrealistic. It isn't that myself/her family weren't positive, we would try to help her stay in reality saying that hard work is required for the things we want. And often times, this was too much, and hence turned to drinking. The coping skills aren't there...and this is where I find myself saying I was let go because she was not only not feeling positive about herself after multiple bouts of huge insobriety, but also that she would have to face the damage she had done. This makes sense that a person with these characteristics would flee instead of confront their issues. This also makes me wonder of her inadequacy feelings...like if she just gets with a guy who is of equal education, but is more successful than me, then she "wins." Such is the case with the person she ran off with (at least his current monetary situation).

I know I only give a few examples here, but could obviously list more. And as time went on, I saw how this behavior, mixed with depression, alcohol, and lack of self worth can lead a person to be very unstable. Finding this guy and leaving with him feels to me like she is looking for a clean start, but geographical changes don't fix who you are, you follows you. As for their relationship...well I can't speak to that currently, and that's why I ask about if anyone knows much about rehab romances...their success rates/failure rates, and what I should expect of such a change.

Let me know if any of you have more focused thoughts on that issue in particular. Thank you.

If she has a personality disorder or is a narcissist, it's almost impossible to cure. Only with a great deal of therapy and admitting that you have the problem to begin with. Obviously that is the issue to start with, so it does not happen too often.

Do some research on the success rates of treating someone with narcissism or personality disorders. It's not good. I don't say that to discourage you, but to make you realize that this is who she is, and it's not likely to change. You say she may recover with this person, but I am going to doubt that. I would guess that she will just go through person after person who will continue to enable her and her addiction. Rock bottom does not necessarily exist, addiction ebbs and flows, gets better and worse for YEARS.

Keep reading, keep writing, it will help you.

What more could she have to done to say she is breaking up with you than what was detailed of her past behavior.

If you had 100% chance of her coming back with open arms you still have to work through

1)the addiction
2) past behaviour of cheating and dumping you out the blue -while engaged!
3) and now as you keep trying to evidence the added element of narcissism.
4) selfcentered and using people when its in her benefit.

If I made a list of traits to run from then I would list the above. If I had to search for the top traits I do not ever want to be in a relationship with it would be the above.

You had a great relationship, you still love her but if we only worked on how we felt on the past then no one would get divorced because we dont marry people we want to divorce we marry who we want to stay with. You divorce the person you have today. The past is over.

You fell in love with someone that won't/cant give love back to you. That is what you should focus on. Why and how to move past it.

On why as my last paragragh mentioned - I am referring to looking past the red flags in your relationship history - you keep mentioning her family and friends bringing things up about her behavior and addiction but you overlooked it and minimised. There is surely some things that you can think of that would fit this.

Also the caretaking role you assumed as you detailed and you want to continue assuming for her. You want to hold her hand and guide her and "be there" in the background when she should be first and foremost in that role and leading herself down that path.

Addiction thrives on codependency.

Kodi,

Thank you for your responses. That is all very true. We as humans look upon the past with rose colored glasses. Or at a minimum, I can speak for myself and say I do. While she was sober, things were good. And the friends making comments were during her heavy drinking period. They would often say she was drunk so there was no reason to try to reason with her. As for codependency. I did read the book “the new codependency” and do see my role in that. But my role as care giver Diminished as I started to understand addiction and started setting boundaries. I got tougher and tougher on her with these boundaries until I came to the final one of kicking her out. She cried heavily in an intervention with her support group when I told her we wouldn’t be able to go on together and have the family we wanted together. This point I never truly thought she would get to because it would open her eyes to reality. It did for a short period until she drank again, unable to stop herself. I would get frustrated and sometimes say unkind things, but never was abusive, but the very real threat of me leaving her was always looming. I didn’t ever take it that far because I did and do love her. I can say all these negative things, but the honest truth is that we were very compatible and happy for the majority of the relationship (including intamacy right up to the end).

It is in this where my paradox lies. I see a person in a struggle with a disease. Much like a mother losing a child due to leukemia, they sit and wonder what they could have done during pregnancy to have changed the outcome. I am left feeling responsible and guilty for not doing more fun things, but she was unable to when not sober. I did care give, but I did hold firm boundaries and showed my disdain for the alcohol and her use of it.

This is why I am left wondering if all of this is exacerbated behavior due to alcoholism. The lies, the deceit, the holding of grudges, the twisting of words, the distortion, and worst of all the discarding. I don’t know to which level she is currently drinking, but I do wonder if an addict such as her can moderately drink? I wonder if she will confront her inner demons, and in time see me for what I really was...a person who loved her unconditionally, ready to take those vows and mean it. Thick and thin. I can’t wash away the things she’s done, but forgiveness is a powerful trait to have and this is something I have always been able to do. I know my story is terrible, and what she has done to me is terrible, but letting go forever is something I just can’t do. I mentioned that my counselor sees this as a gray area, where you don’t have to close that door in life forever, you just don’t have to stand in the door way waiting. New doors open, but that doesn’t mean you can’t revisit the old doors. If I am right in understanding the things you all tell me, it is quite likely she will see this all if she gets sober, and even if she doesn’t, she is likely to reach out to me.

It is in the lack of care about me and our future that hurts so deeply. I think of our plans to have children, the beautiful names we came up with, and the outlook for how we wanted life...and now it is just like tears in the rain. Gone. I feel so traumatized, and deep in despair/depression. I try to be positive, and always have been a positive person, but this has brought me to my knees. Is it really so simple as “such is alcoholism.” I am not down playing the importance or role that has played here...or the pure strength of addiction, but I feel so guilty and can’t keep my head straight on what to think about or how to view this. I am not ignoring what you are all saying, I just go back and forth in so many directions...but is it really that simple? Addiction makes people do things they wouldnt otherwise do?

In your first post of this thread, you said this:

You go on to detail her career and life pretty much crashing and burning.

And now, in your most recent post, you say this:

GGJ, this may be hard to hear, but try to listen: You do not even know who she is w/o her addiction. It sounds as if she has had a problem the whole time you've known her. How could you possibly know what she "wouldn't otherwise do"? You've never known the non-addicted her.

She is who she is showing up as, not as what you imagine her potential to be. I'm sure she has good aspects, but to imagine that the good parts are "the real her" and the bad parts are "the addiction" isn't accurate. They are both parts of her, and are equally real.

There is no guarantee, even IF she grabbed hold of recovery w/both hands and worked it for all she's worth, that she'd turn out to be the person you have convinced yourself she is. I think virtually all of us here have thought "oh, if only he/she stopped drinking, life would be great--it's the alcohol that makes him/her mean/selfish/crude/lazy/etc.!" I certainly thought this way. Check out threads by thousandwords and hearthealth, among many others, for more on how that often works out...

You may find the 2-part article below sheds some light on things:

https://www.cottonwooddetucson.com/p...ner-112011.pdf

https://www.cottonwooddetucson.com/p...ner-112011.pdf

One other thought:

One of her best girlfriends told me she made this decision sober in the 30 day program. That we have to accept that. But honestly, for a person who has affected their brain and thinking process so deeply due to alcohol, do you think she was actually thinking straight? How could she view me as toxic? Is it more likely that she came across this guy, saw shared understanding of addiction, shared “mommy problems”, connected at some level which turned into feelings, and due to the affects of alcohol, her decision making ability would be flawed and she saw this genuinely as a good choice? To leave with another addict?

I ask this because although the decision was made in sobriety. It seems so brash and unforgiving. She never expressed true unhappiness in the relationship. Sure all relationships hit bumps, and I admit I did things wrong (like spending money on things I wanted to do and take up a new hobby. I spent quite a bit to do so, and when she found out how much exactly, she wasn’t very happy. I told her it was my way of coping with her alcohol use, that I needed to find something for me to get positively involved in). I didn’t intentionally keep it from her, and openly showed her and discussed it frequenty, because the hobby was all around us, she was just never sober enough to see what was going on around her.

Even with that being said, I don’t think many of the problems I created were enough for a person who loves someone to get past, or work through. I even apologized saying I’m sorry, and thought she knew. But the resentment may have been strong...or the narcissism of me not spending that money on her. However, I was planning a trip for us when she got out, and was just about to pay for the booking of the wedding location. I told her this after this all happened and it feels like it didn’t matter to her.

Again, my dilemma, did I do wrong here, or is she distorting things to ensure her decision to do what she is doing is justified. Does anything short of abuse justify these actions? I never could harm a fly, and was always so gentle, loving, and thoughtful towards her...reminding her each month on the day of our first date (our monthaversary) with flowers and a card or some candy saying I love you. Simple things like this go a long way, and she would reciprocate it.

This is why I can’t understand the choice to run off. Or the choice to cheat on me. She even continued doing all these kind things after she apparently cheated on me. She was heavy in alcoholism and it seems like an emotional swirl. Likewise when she went to rehab.

Any thoughts?

Joel, my heart goes out to you. I know the pain of the loss of a four year relationship that was close to marriage.

Have to tell ya, I grieved that loss for almost two years. Oh, how I loved that man.

Now, after a few years, I count my blessings that we did not marry, because of some things I have learned about him AND myself since our breakup. (He tried to get us back together.)

As painful as things are now, YOU WILL BE OK!

NOW, as for you, today, I suggest that you
Please pay attention to the wise words that have been written to you in this and your first thread. Read the information that you have been guided to, and stay or get into some counseling.

Focus on completing your PhD, and learn more about yourself and the people you are attracted to (and why).

Also, I suggest preparing and rehearsing a little statement to reply to your EX should she ask to come back. And she might.

Something like, "Wow, we have BOTH been through a lot. Can I get back to you in two days?" Get prepared to set some boundaries with her. Before you answer her, allow the logical, cognitive part of yourself to honestly review her (and your) past histories and the information you have and continue to learn about alcoholism, narcissism, personality disorders. Use your mind to help you with your decision that will involve your heart (your emotional self). Prepare to respond to her (taking care of yourself), instead of reacting to her (taking care of her).

And if she doesn't come back to you,
Well.....chances are very good that this outcome is the best scenario for YOU!

I wish you good luck with your studies, (Soon to be Dr. Joel), your upcoming new job. And life (if things go well), (It is a choice right now, with you and your EX) *without* a partner with active alcoholism or an incurable personality disorder. Because life with an alcoholic or someone with a personlity disorder can be - IS very difficult.

This is your life - remember that every decision you make has a consequence (or consequences.)

I don't know of any statistics on rehab. romances.....but, must add that I have never taken any effort to try to track them down. However, I can say that, empirically, they are known to be common and fragile......
there is a reason that rehab centers, typically discourage this and in recovery groups, they are discouraged...not forbidden, of course, but, discouraged.....especially, in the early recovery period.

Hi Joel

I noticed not one of your replies you took any advice from repliers that was giving for you to focus on yourself and followed it up or asked for more info or asked for resources or explaining it better.

Your replies took time to defend any comments against your ex or explain in detail why she mightve done something when it is something you pointed out and even its terrible like narcissism or cheating.

Its what you weren't saying that stood out to me.

You are struggling to close the door to her and to the relationship. I feel this is ultimately your struggle. You know you must but your feeling are saying something else. and you are following your feelings.

You are bargaining with yourself, i feel with all the postings (and with other - even when you are pointing things out yourself) to justify what is happening and her actions and maybe just maybe there is a reason and possibility on which you can work it out with her. Reality is she has not giving you any SOLID reason till now. Not only that she has treated you poorly.

Maybe you are still processing it all - with the emotions all at once, hurt, denial, anger, sadness etc . You are grieving a loss of someone you love and last thing you want to do is close the door on her.

But this is why she does it she know the door to you is open after all she says and does. No matter how bad she is.

If she knew the door was closed for real then she hasn't shown you she is trying to win you back. She keeps avoiding you on top of not trying.

You are losing either way.

You have at lot going for you. Your smart. You care. You have goals and want a family one day. Leave a space in your life for someone who will appreciate that not trample all over it.

She might even be trying now to get your attention but you too busy saving your ex.

You asked for our thoughts, so this is my thought:

You are going to drive yourself crazy trying to figure out what goes on in her head.

You can't reason with unreasonable people, and there is no one more unreasonable than an addict ( that includes codependents not in recovery)

You can't possibly figure out why an addict thinks what they think, or does what they do ,unless you have suffered with addiction. I feel confident that a sober addict would give you the same advice. Stop trying to figure HER out. Focus on getting your own head and heart straight. I know you feel like you can't do that with out first knowing why she did the things she did... but yes you can. As long as you are focusing on her "whys" you aren't focusing on getting yourself better. I know this because I was stuck spinning my own wheels in the sand for a looooong time.

There is no reason you HAVE to engage with her when she comes crawling back. That's a choice you are making before it has even happened, and I don't think it's healthy for you to be waiting for it. It's like knowing you are going to get slapped in the face eventually so you are constantly on alert wondering when it will happen and how you will respond to it. Exhausting yes?

My wish for you is that you work hard at severing the ties that bind you to this toxic person, and that you soon come to the place of clarity you need to move forward away from the chaos.

Hugs

Joel, stop beating yourself up. Nothing you did caused her to drink, and/or to resume drinking.

Alanons, codependents, partners, (Whatever we call ourselves)

Need to know and believe that:

We didn't Cause
We can't Cure
And we certainty can't Control

The disease of alcoholism.

Plain and simple.

Being in a relationship where the "very real threat" of you leaving her at any moment is not pleasant - for either person.

I'm sure it's already been said in this thread but if so, bears repeating. You have the problem here with her drinking, not her.

That's a really important point. You can want her to be sober very badly, but that's YOUR side of the street, not hers. She is an adult person and if she wants to drink she will, regardless of your good intentions.

Play it out. She is an addict, she is with you, loves you and you have what you describe as a good relationship. You force her to choose, basically, between alcohol or you.

If you read other stories on here you will see that many, many times when an addict is forced to choose between their drug of choice and their family, they choose their drug. That is addiction.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I think it's an important thing to think about.

I'm sorry this happened to you, I wish you well.