I'm feeling very selfish about this.....
 

So....after 13 years of marriage...I've finally gotten it through to my alcoholic husband that I want out. And I mean it this time. We left the bankruptcy attorney this morning and I told him. His neverending cycle of financial irresponsibility, his emotional neglect, his verbal beat downs, have finally caught up with me. I'm a professional, I should NOT be in a bankruptcy attorneys office again. The first time we paid a trustee, this time it's everything goes. I'm keeping the house, the kids, he's getting very little. It's not like I haven't given him warning. I left him three years ago, he stopped drinking, I came back. But with the promise that if he ever started drinking again, I was done. And I would keep the house, the kids, the everything. And that's what I intend to do. I'm tired. I'm tired of supporting him, worrying about him, his binge eating, his binge starving, the fact that he's 41 years old and weighs less than my 16 year old. We stopped having an intimate relationship years ago. I miss that. I told him I wanted that again, but not with him. And that he needed to go. he says he can't support himself. He can, but he can't do it if he's drinking and smoking. But that's no longer my problem.
It's hard to feel lonely when you're married. But it's been that way for at least a decade. I feel I deserve more. And I do.
So why then...do I feel guilty for it? Not that I'm changing my mind, I'm not. Just not sure where the guilt comes from. Like I'm being a horrible person for making him go.

Decades...I feel for you.
My AH of 11 years left last weekend after I had reached the end of my rope. We are not bankrupt...but owe a shed load of money in unpaid bills etc.
It's been the toughest decision I have ever had to make, but this time I did it with my head and not my heart. The love i had has been well and truly sucked out of me, so I guess I am not the "walkover" i used to be...giving in to the emotional blackmail.
WE DO DESERVE BETTER...and now we have the chance.

I have felt the guilt too...but I believe I have done the right thing for me and my boys.

Take good care
M.

Girl don't get me started about Guilt. You feel guilty for it because that is how he and his disease WANT you to feel. It is part and parcel of this disease and guilt is a VERY strong type of Manipulation. IMO, it doesn't really matter where the guilt comes from, just know that it is coming from OUTSIDE of you and you can defeat it. You NEED to defeat it!

You don't even need to ask why, all you need to do is start stomping it out. What worked for me was I started calling myself on it. Every time I felt it, every time I acted on it, every time I spoke a word of guilt, I called myself out. I had to tell myself, "Stop!" When I'd feel it, I'd start singing some stupid little song I'd make up as I went. You can start by saying things like, "Not my problem" or "Not my fault" or whatever fits the situation and just keep repeating it until the guilty feelings go away. It's like I had to go from one extreme to the next, from guilt to almost apathy, in order to find a happy medium. Now, I trust my ability to turn my head away when it is appropriate.

Some would have you believe it is YOUR responsibility to stay with this man until death do you part. But what would they say if it was YOUR death he was causing? Because that is what I believe sticking closely with the alcoholics and addicts in our lives does, it kills us, slowly but surely. There are no "shoulds." Get out and save yourself before he takes you down yet again but this time beyond the point of no return. Hope I don't sound too doom-and-gloomy.

Milly, funny you responded to my thread when I was three pages deep responding to yours. Friends?
L2L...thank you! Bless you! You're exactly right!
And Milly, you're rick, the love I once felt for this man has been sucked right out of me. I totally feel you there. I can barely muster compassion at this point.

Friends? - Sure!!

I feel like a hard cow sometimes, but when you've had enough, you've had enough !!
All the " but I love you's " in the world are not gonna cure this awful disease and make me change my mind and take him back.
You get to the stage where you actually can't bear to be around that person anymore and then the resentment and hate follows.
M.

I asked my counselor why I feel guilty.
She said a few words that meant the world to me.
She said, "Not only do you have the RIGHT to remove yourself from that situation -- you have the RESPONSIBILITY to remove yourself and your children from a destructive situation."

Good for you. The grass IS greener on this side. Promise.

Guilt is a self imposed emotion, basically caused by fear. You have nothing to be guilty about, you gave it your best shot, time to move on and start a new life, where you are in control, not him, not alcohol.

I reached that point a looong time ago. And I am actually hurting him with it, he's just too drunk/hungover to realize it. I have zero attraction to this man, even though he's a good looking enough fella. I can barely stand to be in the same room. And I totally and completely understand how you feel. And it is SO reassuring to know it's ok, I'm not alone in that. That's it's par for the course.

And thank you Lil! Yes, you're right. And Dil, that's right too. I should NOT feel guilty for being responsible and putting the welfare of myself and my kids first. I should NOT.

Been there, done that, have the attorney receipts to prove it.

Selfish? Hardly. But if that's what you want to call it, so be it. Self-preservation would be a better way to put it, though.

I felt guilty too. I stuck around a lot longer than I should have. The guilt passes... hang in there.

D

Serve an eviction notice on "Mr. Guilt Monster"

Let him know you are making decisions to teach your children how to have dignity, respect and self-love - so that when they are grown and have relationships they will know how to be treated with love, respect, dignity and honor!

LIKE EVERYONE DESERVES!

That's what helped me change my way of thinking and walk away from a situation similiar to yours after 16 plus years!

It's been over 3 yrs and LIFE IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PINK HUGS to you!

Rita

Wow DE! I've SOOOO been there. I'm two years out of the initial physical separation (the divorce took 16 months because of all the financial issues) and whereas I still have those sad and guilty feelings from time-to-time, they are not nearly as intense or frequent as they were in the first few months.

Much like you, I am a professional, I am responsible with money, and yet we STILL ended up in BK. I trudged through it and thought it could be a new start for us but as soon as we were out of that immediate emergency and I got things under control, he was out racking up more debt behind my back. I found out about that and an affair in one day (I was actually looking for Rx drugs and found a loan payment book and suggestive texts from a woman instead) and I was DONE. It still floors him that I could just walk away, but the truth is that I had been so incredibly lonely for a partner for so long, I really had emotionally walked away long before that day.

I will forewarn you that even though have clearly made your decision (a wise and healthy one, at that), there do come times of weakness and uncertainty. I have learned that a journal really helped me. I kept a good account of my thoughts and his actions so that when I felt those moments of weakness, I could revisit the strong and resolute "me" and remember why I made the choices I made.

My kiddos and I still have to deal with some BS that comes from his continued poor-decision making but I have to remind myself that at least it isn't every day and that because *I* am free of his insanity, I am a more stable parent for them than I was in past years.

Hang in there!!! You sound like you are clear and determined and you'll get nothing but support here.

Oh he's STILL trying to pull me in. He actually said to me today when I (again) refused to give in, "I'm going out this weekend and I'm gonna get **** because I'm tired of the past 13 years of suck ****"
That's just fine with me. I told him to knock himself out, I don't care. And I don't. I don't think that was the reaction he was looking for. I honestly cannot give the man one more second of my concern. I have kids and myself to think about, and it's about time someone thought about us.
My thinking is more along the lines of....if you can't wait until after Christmas as we agreed to get your groove on....then you're worth far less to me than I thought. And I to you.
More power to ya.
Yes, I am clear in my mind (finally). I asked him/begged/pleaded with him for months to attend marriage counseling, he refused. Claimed if he did go, I would walk out the door in the first 5 minutes and the counselor would cry, cuz he has PLENTY to say. He says he doesn't *have* a drinking problem, that I have a problem. Maybe so. Maybe I do have a problem, and from where I'm sitting, his drinking, lack of emotion, and downright bad attitude, is my problem. I don't want to be someone's care giver. And I'm done with it. I don't care how he feels about it.
And thank YOU SO MUCH for the support, my friends, family, whoever, do NOT understand because 'he's basically a good guy'. But then, they don't have to live with him now do they?

"But then, they don't have to live with him now do they?"

Amen!

Amen! Sing it, sister!!! Heck - I'm going to flat out PRAISE you for putting you and your children first!!!!

No one else knows what it is like to live with that mentality. My ex really IS a sweet man but a total victim who has a major entitlement problem. NO ONE saw it from my side...only from the sweet "aw-shucks" side, the good-old-boy-just-partying-with-his-friends side. And much of that was because I managed to hold the cardboard cutout of Perfect Family up for so long, that they didn't have to. They didn't see the binge drinking, Rx drug using, lying, neglect of family and children, money pilfering, golf/fishing/vehicle addiction. They didn't have to wonder constantly what kind of marital-trust-loophole he had found and was exploiting. THEY don't know. And like Dolly said, THEY didn't have to live with it. Let THEM take him in. THEY will see.

I'll tell you what, though, give it time. Now that the facade is gone, other people will see what you have been dealing with for years. I talked with my best friend the other day, whose husband has been a lifelong friend of my ex, and she said "We are done with the pity-party, Stace. How did you live with this for so long??" And that was my best friend of 15 years who heard my tears, heartache, misery...no one knew until his protective film was lifted.

Well it's official, I really AM an idiot.
I was so excited about a new life until my AH told our 10 year old. Of course our 10 year old had a meltdown. I don't know why he told him, we had agreed to wait until after Christmas before he moved out.
Anyway, this led to me agreeing to give him ONE more chance. We spent a few hours talking about things, he promised...blah blah blah.
So as is tradition in my house, I started to work on the Christmas display outside. This is a huge deal in my neighborhood, we have a competition and I am reigning champ. I wasn't really *into* it this year but the kids insisted (actually my 15 yr old daughter told me if I didn't she was making an appointment at the doctor for me) so I relented and started hanging lights etc. So I get the ladder, the C-9's, the zip ties.....everything. And I'm putting the ladder against the house and am climbing to the roof when I climb halfway up and see my husband through the living room window...sitting on the couch with a beer in his hand.
I don't know why but this enraged me. I mean totally sent me into a rage internally. It was then, on the ladder, that I realized that no matter what I do, no matter how long I try, no matter what he does...things are never going to be any different.
There is something seriously wrong with a woman climbing onto her roof and hanging Christmas lights while her husband enjoys a beer in the warm house while watching ESPN. And now, I don't feel so guilty. I'm sure I will have moments of guilt, but honestly, the view from the window was all I need to remind me.
I can't do it anymore. I just can't. However, I did learn something from my final and desperate attempt at keeping my family together.
Don't tell him he's leaving until you have his bags packed.

Nothing changes if nothing changes. You are your childrens voice, their future. It is not in their best interest to live with an A. They are young, they will not understand today, however, as an adult they will, make the right decision for them.

To me, that moment on the Ladder-it was meant to show you something. I feel he used your child against you, to get what he wanted-really dirty trick that he hoped would work. But something intervened & showed you the truth. Sending you lots of positive thoughts for your journey ahead, in which he unwittingly helped you. Your kids will realize it too, when they are older. (((hugs)))

The loneliest I've ever been in life was while living with a man I no longer loved or trusted.
I feel your strength: you know what to do and are doing it. Talk is cheap: actions speak much louder than words.

Wow, sometimes it is amazing how much alot of our stories are the same, I am 14 days out from the initial filing of the divorce (in our state we have to wait 90 days for it to be officially filed). I myself keep thinking, is this right, is this wrong. He has not drank since August but I have been down the road to many times, and he keeps going back. Of course right now he is mister sweet and do what I can, but yet it isn't making a huge difference for me. Its like, well that's great, but it is to late! Thank you so much for posting about your conflicting feelings and all those whom shared too. It makes me feel much stronger about my decision and knowing that it is normal!

Thanks all!

My final breaking point was when the neighbor asked me if my now XABF was physically disabled because I was the only one they ever saw doing heavy yard work and maintenance at the house! I should have said "No- he's an alcoholic and only likes to drink and go to work!" When it comes to the point of us hitting bottom I never found second chances to work and heaven knows I was the Queen of giving second chances. (and third and fourths and fifths). I not only did this once but got into another relationship that was similar but this time the man had been in recovery for a good while and - darn if he didn't relapse and I ended up in the same exact situation I was in before. Knowing when you're being manipulated is hard to spot at first but once you've been through it a few times (and go to alanon and codependency therapy) you can spot it a mile away. I swear there must be a manual out there somewhere for them detailing how to get you want through manipulation and guilt. Stay strong, and keep the focus on you and the kids.

Thank you all. I have read and re-read your comments because they have given me strength daily.
An update. He finally gets that I'm done with this relationship. Drinking or no. He swore if I gave him ONE MORE CHANCE and I TRIED HARDER that we could make this work. He then went out and brought back beer and drank it while still professing he could change. I let it go, didn't argue. I shrugged my shoulders and went about my day. This was Saturday. We haven't spoken at all since.
Fast forward to today. This morning he asked if I was still mad at him and if I STILL wanted to divorce him, after all he hasn't been *that* bad. And I'm sure from his point of view he legit feels that way. I tried explaining to him that for years I've thrown chance after chance his way. That I've laid all my cards on the table and he refused to play. And that now, my ace was that I'm finally done. I don't even care if he does quit drinking, it won't change anything. I do NOT want to be IN THIS RELATIONSHIP, sober or drunk, anymore. Not now, not ever. I don't even want to go to marriage counseling anymore. All that is off the table. There is one option left, and that is him leaving.
I told him I wasn't going to screw him over in any way, and in lieu of child support he needed to let me keep the house (which he can't afford anyway). And that me moving on with my life was all I wanted. At this point, I don't even want to go to marriage counseling. I don't even want to look at him. And I told him.
I told him that I was through, through with this relationship, the dysfunction, the finance disasters, all of it. That the thought of sex with him made me physically ill.
I know, it's harsh, and I am sorry but it's true and he wasn't hearing it when I tried to say I wanted out kindly. For the past 3 years.
So, he then says he loves me, he wants to work it out, he knows I'm the best he's ever going to have. And I told him he was 100% correct, but it was now too little too late. I was done with it, over it. We aren't best friends, we don't trust each other, we can't get along, and drinking or not drinking wasn't going to change it. I told him we've grown entirely too far apart and that our lifes goals were so vastly different that we would never find peace. I also told him that I wanted to move on with my life and find a partner, someone I want to snuggle with, hang out with, enjoy being with, someone I want to have sex with. I told him the chaos, the hurtful words, the rages the not being there when I needed him had killed every emotion I've ever had for him and now I just want OUT. We haven't had a relationship in years. We're roommates. I told him we could still be exactly the way we are now, friends. We could still do every single thing we do now, except we don't have to do it married. And I asked him why in the hell he keeps holding on to this dead relationship and insists we beat this dead horse all the time. What is holding him to me? It's not love, we've already proven we don't care for one another, we don't hang out together, we don't enjoy one anothers company, and we don't have anything in common....so why? Why keep torturing me and him with the insistence we beat this horse to death?
His response?
"I don't want to be alone."
That about says it all doesn't it?
He's moving out after Christmas. There is no going back now. I've already moved on in my mind and I'm ready to move forward. I'm done moving backward. And there is nothing (and I mean NOTHING) he can say to change my mind.

GOOD FOR YOU!!! Stay strong!!!
At 38 I just moved back to my parents basement UGH!!! I am at some wierd place.. where I feel GUILT, ANGER, SADNESS, DISGUST and HATE!!! Reading all of these posts helps reassure me!!!

Thanks!!!

I have given my ABF warning that I will be leaving in May. I am sure he thinks it is just another attempt at an ultimatum. I feel better knowing I have told him, BUT I will not be reminding him like I have in the past. It is easier to just focus on the task at hand even if it is internally. Sending WARM thoughts your way!

This Vujade:
Was AWESOME! Thanks for those words!
Yeah, what IS with the golf/fishing/vehicle addictions?
And "marital-trust-loophole": Never heard it put that way before but that is exactly what it is!
Thanks again :You_Rock_

Stay strong DecadesEnd. The going back and forth, the second and third chances thing, is exactly the reason why I had to make a new rule for myself some years ago, which is, once I make up my mind that I am moving on, I move on and I NEVER go back, no matter what. There is nothing anyone can tell me to convince me otherwise, no promises, no bargains, nothing. It could be the end of the world and I would not go back.

Goodness, enodm, get out of this kind of thinking and feeling QUICK!! This is just so bad for you! Go to an Al-Anon meeting, go to church/temple/synagogue (whatever your flavor), go to yoga, go to IKEA for a nice healthy walk and dream up some plans for how to organize your stuff in a small space (LOL), go to a book-of-the-month club....IDK, just some ideas. Do ANYTHING but that.

Don't feel bad about moving into your parents' basement! I was storing my stuff in basements, sheds, and attics, living in temporary apartments, living with friends' parents, etc, for YEARS while I got my life back together. Just make sure you are focusing on the future, keep moving forward with your life and your self! Here's how I started doing so:

JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only, and not tackle all my problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime.

Just for today I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, that "Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be."

Just for today I will adjust myself to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my "luck" as it comes, and fit myself to it.

Just for today I will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires effort, thought and concentration.

Just for today I will exercise my soul in three ways: I will do somebody a good turn, and not get found out; if anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I don't want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it.

Just for today I will be agreeable. I will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, keep my voice low, be courteous, criticize not one bit. I won't find fault with anything, nor try to improve or regulate anybody but myself.

Just for today I will have a program. I may not follow it exactly but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests: hurry and indecision.

Just for today I will have a quiet half hour all by myself and relax. During this half hour, sometime, I will try to get a better perspective on my life.

Just for today I will be unafraid. Especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me.

These materials are adapted and reprinted with permission of Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc., Virginia Beach, VA

You know, the first time I ever put it that way was in this post but it really encapsulated my experiences in my marriage. DE's situation sounds so similar to mine, I guess it just put me back into those feelings and made it very clear in hindsight. They are so clever...so good at finding all the ways to make promises and then exploit whatever trust is left. It's mind-boggling.

I also think the golf/fishing/vehicle/insert-other-very-expensive-hobby-or-interest-here addiction is part of the complete self-centeredness of the whole person. There was nothing more important to my ex than what he wanted to do in that moment. Not even shoes for our children...literally.

DE - like others have encouraged you, I also echo the sentiment to stay strong!!! We should be careful when it comes to second guessing our own certainties. There are far too many other people out there who, without true context, will do that for us. Trust in yourself and your chosen path. You aren't crazy. You aren't overreacting. Your heart KNOWS...don't let your brain over-think it.

My ex has been very fond, over the past year, of telling me that he finally realizes that I was the best thing that ever happened to him. Yeah...that's nice. You had 13 years of marriage and the birth of two children to come to that conclusion. It is meaningless, and perhaps even just downright insulting, for you to say that now.

A little saying I am very fond of: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear what you are saying."

I had to come back and read this again today. Thank you again. These days I need constant reminders that *it's ok* for me to be selfish. Because I truly am being selfish.
I keep coming back and updating for a couple reasons, first it's therapeutic and when I doubt myself for the 99th time I can come back and remind myself. Second, I'm sure I'm not alone. When I first came here and lurked it was an enormous relief to know I wasn't alone and maybe someone else is too. Strength in numbers. And third, I know I've been utterly selfish responding but know that I read and re-read each and every response daily. I'm just inside a tornado at the moment and have a hard time thinking outside the mess spinning around me.
But on to updating for the reasons mentioned above.
Today was again, more of the same. I just keep telling myself to be consistent. Today is my half day at work and I was home before he left for his second shift job. Thank god I rarely see him. I came home and started working (I work from home most of the time but in the last few months I've spent more and more time at my office) when he called me into the living room (a.k.a his bedroom). He asked me for a hug. I said no. He asked me to sit next to him. I said no. He asked me why I couldn't just 'get over it' and 'try harder to work things out'. He again said I was being selfish and that I was going to ruin our kids life. Again I said it only has to be that way if you make it that way. We can have every single thing we have no but we don't need to be married. He asked what I meant. I again told him that we could still not speak to each other, still not have sex with each other, still not have a relationship, but the only difference is, we don't have to be married anymore and he is free to find someone who makes him happy. But that that person is most definitely not me.
He then got angry, mostly because I think he now realizes (it only took 6 months) that I'm not kidding and I'm not backing down. I want out. If I could sign divorce papers today I most certainly would.
He then became really aggressive with his language, demeanor, etc. He demanded that I move myself and the kids out, he was keeping the house. I told him that was in no way going to happen but we could definitely put it up for sale and split the proceeds. Then we could both buy another house. He then got angrier and said he wasn't doing that. I again told him (calmly and rationally) that he had only two choices; I stay with the kids, he gets an apartment or I stay with the kids until it sells. And that was the way it would go. I told him if he turned this into a circus that he would not win. We've been married too long and things will NOT go his way. And in the end I would keep everything. I told him if he were smart he'd take me up on my offer to let me keep the house and never pay a dime in child support, or we could sell and he could have half and pay child support. In the end I am still going to be ok but he would be far better off not paying child support than selling the house. But that it was his decision. However he wants to play this out is on him. I am more than willing to be fair and to leave this feeling that it was fair for both of us.
He then cried (I hate that) and begged me to try harder, he PROMISES this time he'll change. As much as it makes me feel awful to do it, I again said no. I'm not beating this dead horse anymore. I feel bad about it but not bad enough to do it. He started the usual tirade and I got angry and dropped the laundry basket full of clothes I was holding and said 'FINE! You want another ten years of THIS? Is THIS what you want? FINE! Keep me in this misery for ten more years so YOU feel better. FINE! But it's only prolonging OUR agony. I do NOT want to be in this relationship ANYMORE. And I KNOW you KNOW THAT. But you REFUSE to let me go because YOU have a problem. But if that's what you want FINE. That's what you'll get."
He then got angry and told me I was selfish, if I'd just try harder things would be GREAT. He would never drink again (mind you he came home from work with beer and stayed up till god knows when drinking it) and that I was pretty much evil.
Whatever, just go. Just GO.
And that's been the day so far. Sound familiar to anyone? I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to know if you all went through this vicious cycle and what it felt like when they finally listened. My gut tells me to follow through, he has to go. And I don't want him back. But my I know he's hurting and I feel badly about it. It's not like he's just a total jerk, he has his moments of kindness. Problem is, they were too far and few between and I don't love him anymore, I haven't for a long time. I feel REALLY badly about that. Is that normal?