Chicory, please. No one says you are whining. We understand. Really, we do. Many of us have been right where you are. But, again, if something doesn't change, then nothing changes. We don't want you to not post. How can we try to help you if you don't post? We want to help you. We know how it feels to love our children. We love ours every bit as much as you love yours.

As long as you pity him, he will never stand up for himself because as long as you pity him, you won't let him go. You have to let him go if he is going to have a chance at getting himself straightened out. I know how backward that sounds, but it's the honest truth.

Chicory,

Here's where you get jammed up. He starts behaving in unbearable ways. You wish you had a way to force him out, but can't because he isn't doing anything illegal. You feel like a prisoner. You get all geared up to put him out, but he tugs at your heart strings and when push comes to shove, you relent and he behaves for a little while and then it starts all over again. It's endless.

And suki is right, nothing changes. It's rinse and repeat.

We AREN'T complaining about your posting. We don't think you are stupid or whiny. We are just trying to reflect back to you what is happening here. It's hard to be objective when you are right in it, as you are. We are several steps back from it. It's always easier to see what is going wrong with someone else than it is to see what's going on in our own lives.

Keep looking at it. Look at it through our eyes. What would you tell Chicory to do? Are you being mean to her, or are you kindly trying to encourage her to do what is best for her? Even if it's really, really hard? Do you want her to see that she is worth enough that she deserves not to be a hostage in her own home to an able-bodied adult who is trapped in a nightmare of his own doing?

You can be free. He can free himself, just as you can. You are the one more capable of changing the dynamics--he can't because he is a mess right now. You can't fix him. He can, if he will, but he has no reason to do that if he isn't forced to.

We'll keep supporting you.

Thanks Suki and Lexie,(I posted this before i saw your post lexie)
I just dont wish to appear like the person who cries "poor me" , look how badly I am being treated" and yet enjoying that position, like someone who uses it to get pity or power. I am quite ashamed of this life i am living. i love so many things about life, and there are so many things i am missing, and i dont want to have my health taken away by all this worry. if he wants to be sick, unhealthy, and have nothing, i guess that is his choice.

It doesn't help matters that my daughters feel he will never be able to be on his own, or hold a job, or anything like normal functioning. his dad says he will be a bum on the street. these "images" in my head dont help. ii makes me feel like i am throwing him out like a piece of trash, or a helpless unbalanced person who is doomed to fail. and starve and be hungry, feel unloved, etc. those thoughts get in the way of healthy thoughts.
i dont really agree with them.

i do think that he may end up needing some counselling, but he won't ever get it if he is being taken care of here. So, I see all the good things that can come from putting him out on his own.

he was never vile to me as a kid, just argued a lot, to get his way. just badgered me until my brain was mush, and I gave in. how stupid was i ? I never wanted to be like my mother, and went the total opposite direction with my kids.I can still feel her hand on my mouth, and my own lips smacked against my teeth, if i had even dared to argue with her about anything. even if i was innocent of something, she was an angry woman who was not able to deal with her childrens feelings.

So, i let them speak their minds, and listened. that backfired with my son, my first child, for he learned that if he argued enough he would get his way. that i would hate saying no. i created a monster, too.


Thank you ladies. I will look at it, as you suggest. i am trying to do that actually. I do a lot of self talk, and try to look at it as a man here, not my son, and how unacceptable this is. and you are so right, he is unable to make the break his self.

i am pondering the idea of turning off internet, tho it is my life at home. it is an idea that makes sense, but i would be lost without it. we dont watch tv.
and then give him 30 days, and time to get his affairs in order. say his farewells to his online friends. he has no faith that he will ever be able to get a simple job and a simple apartment. i find that so very sad, tragic.

i appreciate your support and help. i really do. it is very helpful and is keeping me sane.
hugs

We'll keep supporting you.[/QUOTE]

i love you guys.

i think i am going to write that down, and carry it with me .

I do want to see that I am worth it.

this is huge!

Here's an idea... cut off your internet and go every evening to the library to use their computers, or go to your daughter's, or a friend's house. It gets you out of the house, away from him and it's only for 30 days. Spend the time catching up on some good reading, meditation or a craft project. There are many options....

(((Hugs)))

seriously? he says that YOU stole his refund?

Um...you gotta work to get a refund...period. This kid is not paying rent, eatting your food and acting like an entitlement king...

I know he's your son. We mama's love our children unconditionally but you are not helping him. You are actually hurting him by letting him continue on this way.
You have to do something. I don't know what...but know that it can't stay the way it is.
That isn't good for him or for you. Good luck and big hugs!

Yes, blwninthewind,
he couldnot claim hiself as a dependent, because i did, because I have been supporting him. I have helped him financially , a lot, these past few years, and the money was wasted. You would think that a grateful adult would be glad to see his mom recoup some losses. But he is sick and desperate for money, and no matter what he tells his self or me, it is mostly so he can drink away his anxieties.

Thanks for caring. I know that he has to leave. I told him as much, and now, am accepting that I cannot fix, nor is it my responsibility to do so. I care, I tried, and now, I let go. You can lead a horse to water, etc...... Time for him to face the music and live or waste away, it is up to him. I dont think he is mentally ill enough that he cant find answers for his self, just selfish, and unmotivated and an alcoholic, who desperately denies it, to his self too.


thanks, and hugs
chicory

Hey Chic - so did you give him a deadline? What's the plan?

HI Chicory

When my eldest son was on drugs and drinking at a very young age, I took it all, his yelling at me, his smashing furniture, breaking into the house, etc etc simply because he was my son and in some crazy way I thought I owed him something because i felt he was reacting to my marriage breakup. Think about why you really have put up with all of this for so long. The answer is there my love.
Sometimes I sit quietly and ask myself a whole bunch of questions, tell myself to really get honest and all the answers come. While we dont want to hurt our children it seems, we are really giving them permission to hurt us back.
It took alot of torment for me to ask my eldest son to move out and yep, I wondered if he was hungry, safe and ok. I went through alot of pain caring about him all the time and he damn well knew it.
It took alot of years for my son to get it together. I always let him into our lives, family things blah blah while he was living elsewhere but he knew mum wasnt going to put up with his b_llsh_t anymore. He simply had to grow up.
It seems like a nightmare I know, but ask yourself this -
are you more scared of the pain of not knowing if he is ok or are you more scared of the pain of what he will think of you if you do ask him to leave?
Sometimes Chickory you need to put yourself first for once, please dont let your son control you anymore and in a crazy way you are controlling him still at his age in your home because you still need to know what he is doing and you are still giving him the message that it is still ok for him to be irresponsible.
Does that make any sense?
JJ

chicory, my son was a piece of cake. We thought we were great parents with excellent parenting skills, but it took him being willing and accepting. My daughter was a different story and it escalated when she hit puberty. Her personality was so different and I screwed up left and right. So much for my great parenting skills, huh?!

I had to learn to parent myself with her, because she was an adult and she wasn't letting me parent her, anyway. Just like your son isn't letting you parent him.

I had to surround myself with role models, and that included my son. He wouldn't tolerate his sister's crap - anyone's crap - and take a guess where he learned self respect? His dad and I.

We all have hope and fear. I chose to replace my fear with hope and prayer :)

Justjo, Why have I put up with it for so long?
I ask myself that, often, and I have to say, I dont know , yet.
I dont know if I really believe that he CANT do it alone.
I thought he might take advantage of a leg-up, a long time ago.
I do know now, that he will not take advantage of the leg- up.
I do know now that I can't fix his problems.
I do know now that his problems are his responsibility, and he does not want that. too bad.
I do know the peace that I am getting from not worrying about how to make him feel better.
I don't yet know when I am going to make him leave.

We have sort of been N/C, and I don't let him quack, or blame, or push my buttons anymore.
I do know that I look forward to having my space back.
I told him last week that he will not be here long.
He asked me if he should bother looking for a job, since he is not going to be living here for long, and I said, that it is always a good idea to get a job, but I did not bother to say anything else about it.
I am learning about who he really is, and what he really is doing to me, namely, taking advantage of me, and I wonder if he even realizes it. never was shown boundaries, i guess. i am just learning them myself.

I told him I was done worrying about his problems, that I am going to worry about only my own.

this is quite freeing. I know I will worry when he is out of here, but i believe that he is capable of surviving, if he wants to. I think he will want to.

it feels so good not to react to his moods. i know there is tough stuff ahead, but I am learning how to detach. and just what that means.
it is so strange, but it is like recovery comes to me , in pieces. i grow, then simmer, then grow, simmer, etc.
i can pick up" codependent no more," and i am beginning to grasp what some things mean, where they were just words and sayings before. They really mean something. It is NOT selfish to love yourself. I used to think that was strange and not possible. thought we only loved others.

There are some people in the world, whose security does not hinge on what others think of them. Some people are not blown away by criticism. they dont feel those bad feelings.

It is like I am inside a huge chunk of plaster, and I am chipping away at it, and seeing the person who is me, and I matter. My life, my happiness, and my feelings- all those things matter. I am not a pack mule, who has to carry others responsibilities.

I can create my own happiness, and my own security- my own support system. I am fine as I am. and I was not born to be a messed up person.

just some things i have learned lately. there is hope for me.

Can I hear a HALLELUJAH? :dance8:

Way to rock it, Chic!!

Yes, exactly.
Thank you.

Beth

Aw, you guys make me cry.......

tjp, I went on the dbt site, and it is AWESOME!



I am excited about some of the things I see, cause I know there is more....

thank you, for the gentle pushes toward the light...

Oh, the joy of trying not to let someone push your buttons........

Well, you're not gonna get it perfect every time, Chic...but I bet you're WAAAAAAY better than you were 6 months ago!

Yeah, you are right there!

I am not trying to change his mind anymore, about anything. I cant fix him. I sure have learned that!

He is trying so hard to make me doubt myself. That is so very selfish, and tonight I was thinking of how that borders on just plain mean hearted. I can't believe that this is my son. I don't even know if he is really a nice guy or not. If he is like his dad, he is 97% jerk, sorry to say....and if he is like me, he is about 97% insecure. hope he learns what to do to have a better life, sooner than i have.

But, anyway, I surely don't deserve this.

I've noticed that you often swing back and forth between saying how selfish and awful he is to you, and then how helpless and unable to care for himself he is. You want him OUT when he is being selfish and horrible, but you weaken when you think of him as helpless.

They are both sorta correct, in a way, but they are just facets of his behavior and personality that are screwed up by his alcoholism. Both would be drastically improved by recovery. Alcoholics are complicated people.

You don't have to wait until you are angry to put him out. In fact, I think it might be better if you do it when you AREN'T angry. If you do it when you are calm, and do it with love (even if he is raging at you), neither of you will have to feel that you put him out because you can't stand him.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but do you get what I'm saying? If you made a plan for him to get out and insisted upon it, no matter what he says or does, and you don't lose it, yourself, no matter what he says or does, you might actually be able to follow through with it.

Because it wouldn't be done out of anger.

Does that make any sense?

Chicory, I'm the mother of an AS also...he moved home with me, dad and siblings in an attempt to sober up and get it together after a drunk driving. I was in denial the whole time he was here. I didn't think MY son was an A...he was just drinking because he was depressed!

Well after 3 months of him closet drinking, passing out naked where ever he may land, throwing up and leaving it for someone else to clean up, lying, and just a lack of any respect for us or my house, I told him to leave. Now bear in mind, I didn't kick him to the streets, I kicked him back to his own apartment that he still had with his roomie. The mom in me doesn't know if she could have kicked him to the streets. This is where SR keeps me grounded. He's not ever allowed to come back here to live (drunk OR sober) because I know my limits and I know what I need to keep me and my family healthy.

You ARE worth it. Being Mom doesn't make us responsible to enable and support bad habits along with the good.

I did damage to our relationship by asking him to leave. He's in full-fledged hate mode right now, but only because I denied him the enabling. I hope someday, when he's healthy again, he'll know I did this because I love him, that protecting him from himself isn't the answer for either of us. I did my job by him and he's now a 28 yo man very able to make his own decisions.