Is it normal?
 

Is it typical for families of an a to think that the a will never get help, and never change? Or do we feel like that because we know our a, and we think he can't do it, just like we (I) have enabled him, thinking he cant take care of his self?
Just wondering.

thanks and hugs
chicory

IMO, Yes. To both.

I think it is normal to think that way because we can see what is happening over time. I never thought my eldest son would stop but he has. I never thought my sister would stop, she did because she died from it. I now have a dilema of my other son now, do I think he will stop....I pray so.
JJ

(((L2L))) and (((Justjo)))

thank you for replying girls. love to both of you.
so good to have this place.
Justjo, i read your post yesterday, about your son. I would recommend a quick confrontation about this, cause my son is what you get when you let it go on and on and on, thinking it is not going to get worse, and that it has to get better.

now, i am finding that I never quite accepted that my s is an a. not deep in my soul. but now i do, and it is very sobering (no pun intended- just a freudian slip i guess)

Justjo, i know this hurts you so much, and i am sad for you. but people do change, and people do get clean of drugs and alcohol. i would imagine that you know what to do, from being a part of this site for a while. you have lots of support here, too.
what is going on with him today?

l2l and justjo, you are good friends.

love
chic

Love you too Chick,

Yes I have learnt so much from this site, but the human girly in me, comes out sometimes :rotfxko

My son hasnt come home yet, so I havent seen him. He knows its my day off today from work, so I may not.

The hard part is trying to talk to him, he becomes defensive and loud, and doesnt want to talk about it. Im thinking when I see him I will ask him if we can have a sit down talk and be honest with each other. Im going to suggest rehab. Wish me luck JJ

justjo, I am sending all the hopeful healing power vibes that I can muster. dont know where i am getting them from but I am sending them anyway. I hope that he will sit with you and that his heart will be moved to do that.

hugs
chicory

I thought my sister in law would NEVER stay clean..been 13 years..I found myself to be very arrogant when I would begin to even guess at what others were capable of..it's usually so much more than I thought..

What I meant was that for my part, I am afraid- afraid he wont ever be happy and healthy. not that I am passing some sort of character judgement. some in the family do, however, and I understand, as they have just never seen anything but selfish behavior from him.

I read a lot of the posts by recovering a's here, and it is very interesting, the things they went through as practicing a's, and I admire the strength and the courage that many of them show, in pursuing their recovery. The faith they show, by continuing to move through the miserable first weeks sober. Perhaps that also shows how miserable their lives were, while drinking, to find the getting sober , with its withdrawals, preferable. God bless them. I think it is so wonderful, the way they can come here, and find support and encouragement, to keep going, through the toughest times.

Thanks Keepinon,
I have been telling myself that he is capable of so much more. His dad told me today that he thinks that s will just be a homeless bum, never able to make it. I wrote him back, and asked him if s was told that if he did not get a job and keep it, that he would go directly to jail, does he think he could do it? I think so! so, he is doing this, just cause he can. and cause he has never been forced to solve his own problems. some mental issues , but I think mostly selfish, lazy, and an alcoholic.
love,
chic

I have flaws, imperfections, things I need to do work on.
If somebody told me that they have no confidence in my ability to change the things I need to, I would be offended.
I imagine a drinker feels the same way.

Thanks B, I needed to hear this tonight. Think I may be guilty of this very thing, and you know what - it got turned back on me and -touche- it was offensive! Ha ha. Ok, I get it.

Its still hard to have faith when you've been dragged through the muck for a while. I still feel like I have that muck stuck under my fingernails! Think I need to focus on that and quit focusing on what my A is doing or not doing.

how well have your fears served you Chicory? I know mine never helped me...

My fear isn't helping this situation at all. Just keeps me stuck.

I feel I am being held responsible for "keeping" my son here, in some peoples opinions. Reflecting on that yesterday, I have to say my son is equally responsible for being here, and actually, he is USING me more easily than he could anyone else, cause I am his mom and love him.

So, I do not agree that I am keeping him here, tho I am letting him stay here. my love for my son keeps me in this situation, but it is hurting him, which I have totally accepted. and must act on.

Its almost like i am a hostage. I would love NOTHING more in the world, than for him to leave and be on his own. He will be in a bad way when he does have to leave, but that is what it's gonna take for him to face facts. He cant do it here, that is obvious. He gets worse and so do I.

I never wanted him to come here, but he had no where to go, and it is unnatural not to feel frantic when a son or daughter is in need of food and shelter. at least it is for me. i have been desperate before and know how terrible it is. BUT, this is a life or death situation for my son, I know that now. He needs to feel the consequences of his choices- of drinking- of not looking for work hard enough- of hurting his self and others.

My fear is that my son will not have a life, but i am having faith that many here know what a person in his shoes needs, and what may work, and it makes sense to me. this has not worked in anyones favor. My dysfunction has allowed this for too long, but when you dont know any thing about parenting, you dont do things right sometimes. my a parents sure did not give me any tools for this job, and i have had to wing it. not easy with a stubborn willful son who is much smarter than me and pushes my buttons of guilt and fear. he is very very good at manipulation.

and that fear- well- it just immobilizes me. it's gotta go.

hugs
chicory

Ya know, Chicory,

I'm one of those people who always felt if I wasn't in fear and worrying that I wasn't "doing my job". It was almost superstitious, the way I felt if I worried enough that it would somehow make a difference in whatever it was I worried about.

Instead, it paralyzed me into inaction, kinda like it has you. It only made me suffer, and it kept me from focusing on other things that could actually have a positive impact on my life.

Letting go of fears is an amazing feeling, once you get the hang of it. You discover that events occur, and unfold, as they will and realize that no amount of worrying would have helped the situation. Sometimes the events that happen are not pleasant, and sometimes they are wonderful. But we can watch them with a degree of detachment, knowing that they are out of our ability to control.

I've gotten a LOT better at this recently, and it takes a huge weight off my shoulders.

not only do I think it's normal; but sometimes I think my a is never going to stay well and that he has no bottom. It's happened so many times.

Wish u luck and God Bless you. I know how it feels. I have been there many times

[QUOTE=chicory;2876166]I feel I am being held responsible for "keeping" my son here, in some peoples opinions. Reflecting on that yesterday, I have to say my son is equally responsible for being here, and actually, he is USING me more easily than he could anyone else, cause I am his mom and love him.

So, I do not agree that I am keeping him here, tho I am letting him stay here. my love for my son keeps me in this situation, but it is hurting him, which I have totally accepted. and must act on.

Well..he IS using you, but YOU are letting him..that's what enabling is..addict/alcoholics get their needs met..bottom line. He has burned through everyone else.
Also you say it is natural to panic when a crisis arises with our addicted children..I used to react to everything and lived from crisis to crisis with my daughter..then one day she was having a self induced "crisis" (actually a consequence of her addiction) and I just thought.."This isn't my problem"I cannot tell you the freedom I got out of not reacting, running in to save her, etc.Those consequences..the PAIN is what spurred her to get help..oh it wasn't right away, but when she was left holding the bag time after time..she got sick and tired.

I am so sick and tired, of it all.
Tonight, he is acting hateful, and pacing and doing things that he thinks I will react to. He spent whatever he got from his income tax on some beer, and i am sure vodka (as I tasted the glass next to his computer to see). he spent the week pretty buzzed, and was sleeping most of the time I was home from work. guess he had his little parties while i was working. drinking, and having his self some good old relief.
well, now he is out of money, cigarettes, and he has been leaving his empty tobacco package around, where i will "see it and get the message". i am sick and tired of doing anything for him that he wont do. or even make a half-a@@ed effort at.
I used to buy him tobacco (go on and say it) if he was doing anything toward helping his self. which has not been much, for the economy, quack quack quack.
he has this little can of nasty bits of ends of his smokes and lots of ash and puts it in his pipe and smokes it, and has this nice little nagging cough, that he has had.
so now, he says, "I gotta do something about this pipe, it is killing me, or someting to the effect of "I need tobacco".
ok, so what is not codie to say at this point? I said,"you should have spent money on tobacco instead of booze. " to which he replies, " you stole my refund, owe me, blah blah" since i claimed him as a deduction, since i supported him since may. 8 months. he didnt even work enough to get much back, and if he had claimed his self, he would still be drinking and i would not be able to fix my truck, or recoup some of the money that i have spent helping him. i have helped pay his fines, before he got that job of the month, and paid some his self.
he is angry, and slamming stuff, and basically I feel like i am being badgered. he will probably go out and kick his truck or hit it, while i am in bed, waking me. he will stand at my door, and say taunting insults, to get his way. i imagine he is withdrawing from his week of light drunken ness. maybe he wont act this badly, but i dread the night, in case he gets frantic without smokes. he might suck it up , but i dont know.

he can get on his bike and go pick up butts, as far as i am concerned. he has done that before. i feel like a prisoner. and i really want to get him out of here. but you need a way to do it, if they arent doing anything illegal. this is why i need so badly to get strong, and get him out. it is nearly spring and i am looking forward to peace and to feel human again.

He has always been pretty much this selfish. and i dont know how i even care enough about him to let him be here. What do you do, in this situation? how do you detach, in the face of an emotional battering? are other alcoholics mean and hateful and like this to others?

I feel so bad for you, chicory, but I really don't know what else to say that hasn't already been said. I KNOW how hard it is because I've had to do it. But nothing is going to change if nothing changes. We're not talking about a 18 or 19 year old kid here. We're talking about a man approaching middle age. He is NOT going to change as long as he is living there. Until you gather the strength to make him leave, I'm afraid it's just going to continue to be more of the same. I'm sorry. :grouphug:

Disconnect the TV and the internet. Those will be some consequences he will FEEL and give him 30 days to get out.

I know that this makes me seem like a crazy person who likes misery, but honestly, I am a victim of his selfishness, and he has had many victims over the years. I am not writing this stuff to get sympathy, but just to have someone to share this hard stuff with.
I know how it is here, when someone does not seem to take advice, and people get tired of hearing their crying. but this is my own son, my flesh and blood, and I have the bad habit of pitying him, when i think of him having no where to live. I am trying to not see it as such a terrible thing, for him to have to stay at a shelter. It is a roof, and he will be expected to do things. He will not have the luxury of being a selfish lazy person, and he may get some self respect.

I am sorry if i seem to be whining. i promise that is not what i am doing. i am truly near a bottom myself and i guess i should not post about this until something changes. i am pi$$ed to be in this situation. I do not deserve it. But I set myself up for it, by trying to help him, and wanting him to have a warm home instead of being hungry on the street, a chance to get on his feet.Too bad he did not appreciate it.

Chicory, please. No one says you are whining. We understand. Really, we do. Many of us have been right where you are. But, again, if something doesn't change, then nothing changes. We don't want you to not post. How can we try to help you if you don't post? We want to help you. We know how it feels to love our children. We love ours every bit as much as you love yours.

As long as you pity him, he will never stand up for himself because as long as you pity him, you won't let him go. You have to let him go if he is going to have a chance at getting himself straightened out. I know how backward that sounds, but it's the honest truth.

Chicory,

Here's where you get jammed up. He starts behaving in unbearable ways. You wish you had a way to force him out, but can't because he isn't doing anything illegal. You feel like a prisoner. You get all geared up to put him out, but he tugs at your heart strings and when push comes to shove, you relent and he behaves for a little while and then it starts all over again. It's endless.

And suki is right, nothing changes. It's rinse and repeat.

We AREN'T complaining about your posting. We don't think you are stupid or whiny. We are just trying to reflect back to you what is happening here. It's hard to be objective when you are right in it, as you are. We are several steps back from it. It's always easier to see what is going wrong with someone else than it is to see what's going on in our own lives.

Keep looking at it. Look at it through our eyes. What would you tell Chicory to do? Are you being mean to her, or are you kindly trying to encourage her to do what is best for her? Even if it's really, really hard? Do you want her to see that she is worth enough that she deserves not to be a hostage in her own home to an able-bodied adult who is trapped in a nightmare of his own doing?

You can be free. He can free himself, just as you can. You are the one more capable of changing the dynamics--he can't because he is a mess right now. You can't fix him. He can, if he will, but he has no reason to do that if he isn't forced to.

We'll keep supporting you.

Thanks Suki and Lexie,(I posted this before i saw your post lexie)
I just dont wish to appear like the person who cries "poor me" , look how badly I am being treated" and yet enjoying that position, like someone who uses it to get pity or power. I am quite ashamed of this life i am living. i love so many things about life, and there are so many things i am missing, and i dont want to have my health taken away by all this worry. if he wants to be sick, unhealthy, and have nothing, i guess that is his choice.

It doesn't help matters that my daughters feel he will never be able to be on his own, or hold a job, or anything like normal functioning. his dad says he will be a bum on the street. these "images" in my head dont help. ii makes me feel like i am throwing him out like a piece of trash, or a helpless unbalanced person who is doomed to fail. and starve and be hungry, feel unloved, etc. those thoughts get in the way of healthy thoughts.
i dont really agree with them.

i do think that he may end up needing some counselling, but he won't ever get it if he is being taken care of here. So, I see all the good things that can come from putting him out on his own.

he was never vile to me as a kid, just argued a lot, to get his way. just badgered me until my brain was mush, and I gave in. how stupid was i ? I never wanted to be like my mother, and went the total opposite direction with my kids.I can still feel her hand on my mouth, and my own lips smacked against my teeth, if i had even dared to argue with her about anything. even if i was innocent of something, she was an angry woman who was not able to deal with her childrens feelings.

So, i let them speak their minds, and listened. that backfired with my son, my first child, for he learned that if he argued enough he would get his way. that i would hate saying no. i created a monster, too.


Thank you ladies. I will look at it, as you suggest. i am trying to do that actually. I do a lot of self talk, and try to look at it as a man here, not my son, and how unacceptable this is. and you are so right, he is unable to make the break his self.

i am pondering the idea of turning off internet, tho it is my life at home. it is an idea that makes sense, but i would be lost without it. we dont watch tv.
and then give him 30 days, and time to get his affairs in order. say his farewells to his online friends. he has no faith that he will ever be able to get a simple job and a simple apartment. i find that so very sad, tragic.

i appreciate your support and help. i really do. it is very helpful and is keeping me sane.
hugs

We'll keep supporting you.[/QUOTE]

i love you guys.

i think i am going to write that down, and carry it with me .

I do want to see that I am worth it.

this is huge!

Here's an idea... cut off your internet and go every evening to the library to use their computers, or go to your daughter's, or a friend's house. It gets you out of the house, away from him and it's only for 30 days. Spend the time catching up on some good reading, meditation or a craft project. There are many options....

(((Hugs)))

seriously? he says that YOU stole his refund?

Um...you gotta work to get a refund...period. This kid is not paying rent, eatting your food and acting like an entitlement king...

I know he's your son. We mama's love our children unconditionally but you are not helping him. You are actually hurting him by letting him continue on this way.
You have to do something. I don't know what...but know that it can't stay the way it is.
That isn't good for him or for you. Good luck and big hugs!

Yes, blwninthewind,
he couldnot claim hiself as a dependent, because i did, because I have been supporting him. I have helped him financially , a lot, these past few years, and the money was wasted. You would think that a grateful adult would be glad to see his mom recoup some losses. But he is sick and desperate for money, and no matter what he tells his self or me, it is mostly so he can drink away his anxieties.

Thanks for caring. I know that he has to leave. I told him as much, and now, am accepting that I cannot fix, nor is it my responsibility to do so. I care, I tried, and now, I let go. You can lead a horse to water, etc...... Time for him to face the music and live or waste away, it is up to him. I dont think he is mentally ill enough that he cant find answers for his self, just selfish, and unmotivated and an alcoholic, who desperately denies it, to his self too.


thanks, and hugs
chicory

Hey Chic - so did you give him a deadline? What's the plan?

HI Chicory

When my eldest son was on drugs and drinking at a very young age, I took it all, his yelling at me, his smashing furniture, breaking into the house, etc etc simply because he was my son and in some crazy way I thought I owed him something because i felt he was reacting to my marriage breakup. Think about why you really have put up with all of this for so long. The answer is there my love.
Sometimes I sit quietly and ask myself a whole bunch of questions, tell myself to really get honest and all the answers come. While we dont want to hurt our children it seems, we are really giving them permission to hurt us back.
It took alot of torment for me to ask my eldest son to move out and yep, I wondered if he was hungry, safe and ok. I went through alot of pain caring about him all the time and he damn well knew it.
It took alot of years for my son to get it together. I always let him into our lives, family things blah blah while he was living elsewhere but he knew mum wasnt going to put up with his b_llsh_t anymore. He simply had to grow up.
It seems like a nightmare I know, but ask yourself this -
are you more scared of the pain of not knowing if he is ok or are you more scared of the pain of what he will think of you if you do ask him to leave?
Sometimes Chickory you need to put yourself first for once, please dont let your son control you anymore and in a crazy way you are controlling him still at his age in your home because you still need to know what he is doing and you are still giving him the message that it is still ok for him to be irresponsible.
Does that make any sense?
JJ